Avodah Mailing List

Volume 33: Number 19

Wed, 04 Feb 2015

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 16:30:27 -0500
[Avodah] Comments on The Tu Bishvat Seder

See http://tinyurl.com/p8qg47w

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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 16:56:29 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Prohibition on disparaging non-Jews

On 02/02/2015 04:50 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Feb 02, 2015 at 04:37:14PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> :> Rav is using the popular idiom to say that's the mussar haskeil of the
> :> aggadic story about Yisro. Otherwise, why is this comment worth inclusion
> :> in shas?
> : To explain the passuk.  No more and no less.
> Rav Papayas explained the pasuq. Rav takes his thought and ties it to
> an oft repeated thought about how easy it is and therefore how hard one
> must work to avoid offending geirim and their descendents.

Says you.  That interpretation is entirely in your head, and not at all
on the page.   You are taking your own thoughts and shoving them into
the Amora's mouth.

> To me it seems a huge drei to avoid drawing the conclusion that Rav is
> taking R' Papayas's words to make Yisro's response an illustration of
> why the oft-said warning is worth heeding.

On the contrary, your take is a huge drei.   You would have to somehow
distinguish this from the dozens of other times the gemara does the exact
same thing: cite a folk proverb to illustrate some point.  Just search
Shas for "Haynu de'amri inshi", and try to read each result as some sort
of mussar drasha, let alone as a statement of law!

> Or to put it another way: if Rav didn't agree with the common saying,
> what does repeating it add to Rav Papayas's original aggadita?

It explains what would otherwise be a very puzzling statement.  It seems
to make no sense for Yisro to be upset at the news of Yetzias Mitzrayim.
The saying explains why.

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Message: 3
From: Avi Goldstein
Date: Mon, 2 Feb 2015 17:03:14 -0500
Re: [Avodah] yidmu vs. yidemu

Regarding the discussion of yid'mu in the Shirah, Michael Kopinsky asked:

"Why does a dagesh in the daled double the mem in the shoresh? Should
that turn it to d-d-m?"

I think the dagesh is not in place of two dalets, but in place of a nun
followed by a dalet.
Other examples of this are "yikkom," which could also be written "yinkom,"
"yittnu," which technically would be "yintenu," and "yittor," from "yintor."
Can anyone confirm what I am saying? Thanks, Avi Goldstein

 On Thu, Jan 29, 2015 at 7:06 PM, Mandel, Seth via Mesorah
< meso...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:
> the real difference is in the dagesh. With a dagesh, it is from the root
> d-m-m, meaning to be silent (and, of course, the shwa is na'). Without
> the dagesh, it is from the root d-m-h, meaning to be similar (and the
> sh'wa is silent).
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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero
Date: Mon, 02 Feb 2015 19:24:30 -0500
Re: [Avodah] yidmu vs. yidemu

On 02/02/2015 05:03 PM, Avi Goldstein via Avodah wrote:
> Regarding the discussion of yid'mu in the Shirah, Michael Kopinsky asked:
> "Why does a dagesh in the daled double the mem in the shoresh? Should
> that turn it to d-d-m?"
> I think the dagesh is not in place of two dalets, but in place of a
> nun followed by a dalet. Other examples of this are "yikkom," which
> could also be written "yinkom,"   "yittnu," which technically would be
> "yintenu," and "yittor," from "yintor." Can anyone confirm what I am
> saying?

"Yinkom" is common, but I don't think it's correct.  It should always be
"yikkom", because a nun in that position is always dropped and turned into
a dagesh on the next letter.

But if "yidemu" were an example of this, what would it mean?
I am unfamliar with a root "ndm".  What do the present-tense
"nodem" or the past-tense "nadam" mean?

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Message: 5
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 01:45:01 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Prohibition on disparaging non-Jews

> I am sure that her own children, ...
> have heard the truth about the Ukrainians.

Before I can ask what that "truth" is, I first need to understand:

Exactly who are "the" Ukrainians?

In plain language, I'd think that "the" Ukrainians would be referring to
every single Ukrainian. But surely this is not what you meant, is it? Did
you mean, perhaps, 95% of Ukrainians? Or 55%, or 15%? Please clarify what
you meant. And please also tell us where you got those statistics.

It is my opinion that the writer of those words usually shines a bright
light on the subjects we discuss here. But in this case, I really don't
understand what is being claimed. For example:

> A giyores who was a guest at our table piped up, heatedly denying
> that the Ukrainians were anti-Semites at all.  Her parents were
> Ukrainians and they were very nice people!  End of discussion!

Surely you're not calling that giyores a liar, are you?

Perhaps you mean that her parents, and the other Ukrainians she knew, were
all despicable people who were very good at hiding their rottenness from
her, so that she grew up under the mistaken impression that "they were very
nice people"?

> When you are speaking to a particular ger, you shouldn't
> disparage the particular ethnic group or country that his
> people come from if there is a chance it will make him feel
> bad.

Let me offer a few examples of groups that you might mean:
A) Ukrainians
B) Europeans
C) People from Eastern Bloc countries
D) Non-Jews

Are you saying that there is a chance that your giyores will feel bad if
you disparage people of groups A or B or C, but there's *no* chance she'll
feel bad if you cast the net so wide as to include all of D? Do you really
think that?

I do believe that there are some geirim who have integrated into Jewish
society so completely that, yes indeed, they do forget their biological
origins. But I do *not* believe that one can presume this for any given

Akiva Miller
How Old Men Tighten Skin
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home

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Message: 6
From: Kenneth Miller
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 03:02:30 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Keli Sheni, no matter how hot

R' Meir Rabi wrote:

> Coffee and tea are not cooked, just as Reb Moshe says bones are
> not cooked. Bones are softened in order to make it enjoyable to
> eat the marrow inside them and even if the bone is chewed and
> swallowed that's no different to swallowing watermelon seeds.
> So too coffee and tea. They are steeped in hot water to extract
> flavor; that is not cooking.

I am not familiar with what Rav Moshe held about bones and watermelon seeds
(could you point me to it?), but he wrote about tea in Igros Moshe OC
4:74:15, and I think his argument is very different than how you seem to
take it.

In that teshuva, he refers to the Aruch Hashulchan, who wrote that it is
quite obvious that even water from a kli shlishi *does* cook the tea
leaves, because we can see the water turn red. Rav Moshe rejects that
argument, writing that tea leaves will turn even *cold* water red. He
continues, writing that it takes a long time with cold water, and less time
with warm (but below Yad Soledes) water -- which no one would call "bishul"
-- so the fact that hot water turns it red very quickly provs nothing.

This is an important factor in Rav Moshe's argument. He says nothing about
the general practices of tea manufacturers or anything like that. His only
comment outside of the world of halacha is that the redness of the water is
not evidence of "bishul".

Then he enters the world of halacha, and he points out that the sources do
talk about bishul happening in a kli sheni, but they never talk about
bishul in a kli shlishi. THAT is why he allows placing a teabag in a kli
shlishi: because there are no grounds to forbid it.

Akiva Miller

How Old Men Tighten Skin
63 Year Old Man Shares DIY Skin Tightening Method You Can Do From Home

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Message: 7
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Tue, 03 Feb 2015 10:21:43 -0500
[Avodah] Tu Bishvat and The Symmetry Between Aesthetics and

See http://tinyurl.com/mu6jlg4

Footnote [8]

[8] The most reliable and perhaps oldest text which elaborates on the 
ritual of the Tu Bishvat Seder is the anonymous Hemdat Yomim which is 
said to have probably been written either by Nathan of Gaza, 
Shabbatai Zevi's closest disciple and leader of the movement after 
his death, or a member of his circle. It was probably first published 
in lzmir or Kushta although the publication date is not known.. The 
extant edition was published in Zolkiew two or three times between 
1745-1762. Cf. Yizhak Isaac ben Ya'akov Ozar Ha-Seforim (Vilna, 
1880), p. 193, # 678. A practical guide to the Tu Bishvat Seder, the 
anonymous Pri Etz Hadar (Jerusalem, 1968), includes various readings 
from the Zohar which accompany the eating of various types of fruit, 
all of which are interpreted according to the Lurianic tradition. 
This pamphlet largely adopts the mystical explanations of the 
festival given in Hemdat Yomim.

For information on Shabbatai Zevi and his "prophet" Nathan of Gaza see

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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 17:37:14 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Philosophical and theological challenges of,

Last August R Zvi Lampel restored some of my faith in RSRH's symbol

I wrote:
> This is where RSRH's Horeb lost me. There is nothing inherent in putting
> blood on an altar that speaks to one's past accomplishments. This symbol,
> and many of RSRH's symbols, would only have meaning because the creator of
> the sign and the recipient share a convention about what it should mean.
> If one were to take Horeb to mean that the primary value of zeriqas hadam
> is a symbol that we don't see discussed until Horeb, it would imply that
> the vast majority, if not all, people who performed qorbanos in bayis
> rishon or sheini didn't get much out of it. Nor basar bechalav, nor...

RZL replied <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol32/v32n119.shtml#03>:
: If I correctly recall, Rav Hirsch attributes his symbology to the usage
: in Tanach and Midrashim. He posits that the earlier generations, familiar
: with this usage, understood the meaning of the mitzvos accordingly.

: From passages of the Chumash commentary such as the one cited above,
: I concluded that the connection the recipient was expected to
: recognize was based on his knowledge of biblical usage, and that it
: is in this sense that RSRH preceded the abive comments with the
: words, 
:     Foremost among the conditions we have set down for the analysis
:     of a symbol is the requirement that the symbol must be
:     considered in association with both the person who instituted it and
:     the person to  whom it is addressed. ... [T]he purpose     of
:     communication by means of symbols is not to reveal previously
:     unknown truths but only to impress upon the recipient, in a
:     manner more profound and enduring than mere words, truths that have
:     already been made known to him earlier.

To put this idea in my own words: RSRH holds that the symbolic language
he describes was part of the original Sinai culture, and thus inheres in
the language of Tanakh, the symbology of nevu'ah, and therefore it was
originally transparent to the Jewish people. Until nisaqtnu hadoros as
we lost elements of the culture we received at Sinai and the language
was lost.

As I said, this only partically won be back; at least to say it's a
shitah, if not returning me to believing Horeb actually is "it".

This morning I thought of ways to articulate my existing misgivings.
And so I am reviving my thread.

1- The language doesn't seem the same. Or, to put it another way, can you
find examples of ideas in Horeb that actually help explain metaphores
in nevu'ah or aggadita? His explanations for elements in halakhah don't
seem to overlap.

The two sets of exceptions:
    a- numbers: 3, 4, 6, 7, 8
    b- primary colors: red as gashmius, green as growth, blue as ruchnius,
       white as taharah

But those ideas are far from uniquely RSRH's.

2- Second, was there a single symbolic language to draw from? Ein shenei
nevi'im misnabe'im besignon echad. Of course, that's saying there can be
multiple symbolic representations of the same idea, rather than multiple
ideas that map to the same symbol. But it does illustrate the complexity
of the problem.

3- Given that the recreated symbolic language in Horeb is largely
undocumented for millenia (1a, 1b, and other examples being in the
minority) how did RSRH have the tools to rediscover them? And if so,
why did it wait for him, rather than a ga'on stepping up to halt the
receeding tide of the language of Judaism, or a rishon to spell out what
was lost from public consciousness, as RSRH did?

After all, we're talking about a loss of nearly all of the value of
observance of any of the ritual mitzvos! Men were shaking 4 minim and
barely getting out of it what they could, missing out on its primarily
lesson, and no one spoke up? All those years of not mixing meat and milk,
and no one thought that effort should be put in to figuring out how
to queue people in on the lesson they're trying to internalize through
this prohibition?

#3 could be addressed if we hold of the progressive revelation of
Qabbalah. Horeb stands on the Zohar, if it's not always obvious how;
we know that from the margin notes in RSRH's Zohar. Perhaps it required
the revelation to the Ari haQadosh to have the tools to understand the
program, and therefore the project waited for the skills of a rationalist
Qabbalist who post-dated the Ari.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Every child comes with the message
mi...@aishdas.org        that God is not yet discouraged with
http://www.aishdas.org   humanity.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Rabindranath Tagore

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Message: 9
From: Micha Berger
Date: Tue, 3 Feb 2015 18:00:08 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Major Historical Error Corrected -- The Hebrew

Another thread revival because I hit something in the Arukh haShulchan
that I didn't know at the time of our discussion. (Unlike the last thread
revival, but in general that's been happening to me lately.)

AhS OC 393:1-3 discusses what to do on a "three day yom tov" when someone
forgot to make an eiruv (or a shituf mevo'os) before the start of Yom Tov.

He holds by the first opinion he gives (se'if 1, which we learn in s'
3 is that of Ra'avad, Rosh, and Ran and is implied in s' 2 to be shared
by the Tur):

On the first day of YT, he should make an eiruv al tenai "if today is
chol, this is the eiruv, and if today is holy, this is nothing". And on YT
sheini, again with a tenai, "if today is holy, I made an eiruv yesterday,
and if not, this shall be my eiruv". Neither time do you make a berakhah,
it's not me'aqeiv and safeiq berakhos lehaqeil.

The Tur says that both days should use the same bread, but the AhS says
(citing the BY, MGA and Taz) that's just good practical advice -- why
have two loaves that you have to be careful not to eat on YT?

In contrast, the Rambam (YT 6:14-15, discussed in AhS s' 3) says that
was only when the safeiq was real, and now the person is stuck without
an eiruv. He calls YT sheini minhag be'alma, but given the severity,
I am not sure the Rambam really means minhag rather than din, but is
using Abayei's language in the gemara.

And even according to the first opinion, this is only true for most YT,
not the yoma arikhta of RH (s' 1).

It seems to me that rov rishonim oppose the Rambam. Not that they hold
sefeiqa deyoma today is a real safeiq rather than a taqana (or maybe
minhag). But that the din is to preserve minhag avos, and thus continue
act as though there is a safeiq. Whereas the Rambam is telling to treat
YT sheini as a vadai chag derabbanan.

So what we debated here on list a year or two back is apparently a
machloqes rishonim. Barukh shekivanu!

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 06:08:45 -0500
Re: [Avodah] How Did Rashi Make a Living?

On Tue, Feb 03, 2015 at 6:02pm EST, Zev Sero via Areivim wrote:
: On 02/03/2015 04:37 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
:> At 04:00 PM 2/3/2015, R. Zev Sero wrote:
:>> Oh, and there is no evidence that Rashi was a vintner.

:> See the article with this title at http://tinyurl.com/7cxgl8

: So if you were familiar with this article, or with the several others
: on the topic, why did you repeat the claim that he was one?

Actually, while the Prof MI Gruber does end up agreeing that Rashi
probably wasn't a vitner, if you read the body of the article, most of
it is about how R/Dr Haym Soloveitchik's disproofs are overstated.

He mentions that we even have a barrel seal of Rashi's. He sealed
barrels and bothered to identify who did so. Which doesn't *prove*
he was a vintner, but to my mind is enough to shift the burden of proof.

I would say the evidence as spelled out (but not as interpreted) by the
article points to a man who learned full time or nearly so on the proceeds
of owning a vinyard. Perhaps he had staff who did the actual work. Even
if he was a vitner, (which is, after all, what word of mouth has been
saying for centuries), it is more likely it was an investment, not a job.

In any case, not really who Prof Levine is looking for on a list of
baalei mesorah who had professions.

Interestingly, the last footnote points you to his "Rashi's Commentary
on Psalms", p. 1. n. 1, which is included in the Amazon preview
at http://j.mp/1BU7Drz . For a discussion of what the acronym
"Rashi" means.

There is a tradition that the acronym was invented in order to be read
as -- or also read as -- Rabban Shel Yisrael.

Martini, a 13th cent meshumad, records Rashi = Rav Shelomo Yarchi (of
Luneil). Rashi himself is believed to be born in Troyes or Worms. It would
require positing his anscestors came from Provence, or (less likely)
that Rashi became famous in a shtella in Lunel before returning home
and founding his yeshiva. The whole thing is unlikely, but it's a pretty
early source (recreating 2 cent later, rather than 9), so I don't want
to dismiss it entirely.

Further afield, the legend in Lunel, and not specific to the Jews, is
that their city was founded in the 1st cent CE by refugees from Yericho,
and thus named the city the parallel in French.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Nothing so soothes our vanity as a display of
mi...@aishdas.org        greater vanity in others; it makes us vain,
http://www.aishdas.org   in fact, of our modesty.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              -Louis Kronenberger, writer (1904-1980)

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Message: 11
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 16:27:35 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Listening to a Rav HaMuvhak

On Mon, Jan 19, 2015 at 01:11:06PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> What isn't a halachic approach in my opinion is a LOR who shops opinions
:> from a range of important Rabonim and then decides for himself

: I understood that RMF published his teshuvot explicitly so one could read
: them and then decide if he agrees. He writes that one should NOT follow his
: psak simply because he says so without understanding the reasons

RMF's "one" is other posqim. An LOR who is ra'ui lehora'ah, at least in
the sugyah in question. It's to add to the info available to an informedf
opinion, not replace that basic competency.

"Shops opinions" might have been meant to imply the latter.

Similarly, a for the topic in the subject line (in case this isn't
intentional topic drift): "Listening to a Rav HaMuvhak". The teshuvah
certainly wasn't written as a replacement for someone not competent
in this area, or not sufficiently competent to rule about very heavy
topics (eg ishus) listening to their rav muvhaq.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach

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Message: 12
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 16:43:45 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Ha-Asiri Kodesh

On Wed, Jan 21, 2015 at 09:33:39AM +0200, Jessica Setbon via Avodah wrote:
: I am translating the diary of a Rav that was written during the Shoah.
: I would like to know if there is an existing translation for the term
: "ha-asiri kodesh" -- observing every tenth calendar day in a special manner.

I found haArisi Qodesh on the Bar Ilan Responsa site. 19 hits (trying
qodesh spelled both malei and chaseir). But they're not about calendar
days. The topic is more ma'aser.

Ra'avan (shu"t #117) in a far fro trivial way, says that Levi is the
"ha'asiri qodesh" of the 8 shevatim who are not their mother's bechor.

A second non-ma'aser usage is Yesod More leRa'ava sha'ar 11, but I didn't
understsand it. But it involves galgalim, which is relevant because...

The third is also about galgalim -- the Shelah's Asarah Ma'amaros (ma'amar
3, #107). "And every galgal is physical compared to the galgal above it.
Above them all is the galgal haseikhel, galgal ha'asiri qodesh Lashem.

I presume this explains why ma'aser, rather than being a separate topic,
but we're way out of my pay grade.

It looks like the Alter was just borrowing an idiom. Perhaps he just
wanted a monthly day that wasn't overused already -- like RC, the malei,
Shabbos mevorkhim -- or that included Yom Kippur.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Take time,
mi...@aishdas.org        be exact,
http://www.aishdas.org   unclutter the mind.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm

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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 16:57:07 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Learning Tanach At Night

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 12:48:25PM +0200, Eli Turkel via Avodah wrote:
:> One could write a very long book on Practical Kabbala. Some are into
:> this field, others aren't. On Shabbat when I went to do netilat yadayim
:> for a cohen, he reminded to stand on his right. It was important to him
:> so I did it.

: I once went to a brit of a relative in Toldot Aharon. Afterwards the rebbe
: gave "shiraim"
: Because of where I was standing I put out my left hand to receive the
: bread. The Shamash made sure to tell me (in Hebrew at least) that I should
: use my right hand even though it was awkward.

Is this entirely "Practical Qabbalah"? It seems to me that not doing
things for others kele'acheir yad is an etiquette issue, regardless of any
qabbalistic overlays.

Possibly related:
In most of the world it is accepted to shake hands bedavqa with the
right hand.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 14
From: Micha Berger
Date: Wed, 4 Feb 2015 17:40:17 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Keli Sheni, no matter how hot

On Tue, Feb 03, 2015 at 03:02:30AM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: ... Rav Moshe ... wrote about tea in Igros Moshe OC 4:74:15...
: In that teshuva, he refers to the Aruch Hashulchan, who wrote that it
: is quite obvious that even water from a kli shlishi *does* cook the tea
: leaves, because we can see the water turn red. Rav Moshe rejects that
: argument, writing that tea leaves will turn even *cold* water red...

Actually, RYME calls tea "eisev" not "alei teih". Leading me to believe
that RYME was far from expert on the science of tea. So, without knowing
how tea making works, it's a logical enough assumption, even if open to
RMF's counter-argument.

: Then he enters the world of halacha, and he points out that the sources
: do talk about bishul happening in a kli sheni, but they never talk about
: bishul in a kli shlishi. THAT is why he allows placing a teabag in a
: kli shlishi: because there are no grounds to forbid it.

The MB 318:47 quotes the Eishel Avraham (318:35, but also mentioned in
s"q 17 <http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41247&;pgnum=204>) as
making the distinction, and this is cited by the IM. The Peri Megadim
(author of the EA) in turn cites the Bach.

I do not know if anyone mentions the idea before the Bach. I skimmed
through 75 hits on Bar Ilan, and couldn't find anything before then in
the context of bishul.

In contrast, the CI (OC 52:19) holds there is no mention of keli shelishi
(K3) because "keli sheini" is only meant in contrast to keli rishon
(K1), and not bedavqa the 2nd keli rather than the 3rd or 4th.

After all, the big distinction between a K1 and a K2 is that one was on
the fire, and the keli itself was heated, whereas the other is warmed by
the food entering it. Which would make a K3 or even K4, K5, etc... simply
more examples of K2.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

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Message: 15
From: Prof. Levine
Date: Wed, 04 Feb 2015 19:26:30 -0500
[Avodah] How Binding is Minhag?

 From http://www.torahmusings.com/2015/02/binding-minhag/

?Rabbi, the issue of minhagei avot (custom of 
one?s fathers) really bothers me, and I don?t know what to do.

My family emanated from Germany. The customs in 
our house followed the traditions of our 
ancestors ? for example, to wash our hands before 
Kiddush on Shabbat, and keep three hours between 
meat and milk. As you know, Rabbi, these are 
sacred customs which the communities in Germany 
fought not to budge from. The same applies to 
prayers: we put on tefillin after reciting 
korbanot, the blessings over the Torah are said 
before korbanot, ?Ain Kelokainu? is not said on 
weekdays, and numerous other accuracies in the prayer format.

But in many matters I?m afraid to act according 
to the custom of my fathers, since in Israel, the 
accepted minhag goes according to the renewed 
custom of the Prushim, disciples of the Gaon of 
Vilna (Gra). They challenge me by claiming that 
the minhag ha?makom is obligatory, and thus 
supersedes the various nusachim (versions). 
However, no other community follows these customs 
except the Ashkenazi-German community. No one 
objects to the Moroccans or Algerians for keeping 
their nusachim, as well as all the Hassidim who retain their unique customs.

Furthermore, it should be noted that the minhag 
of Ashkenaz is very old and clearly pre-dates the 
minhag of the Prushim, which, as is well-known, 
is not even the accurate minhag of the Gra, and 
it saddens me that our minhag is gradually being 
forgotten. Rabbi, should I move to a place where 
there is a minyan that follows my ancestor?s customs accurately??

See the above URL for the reply and more.  YL
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