Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 166

Wed, 10 Dec 2014

• 1. Re: vav-yud-shin-quf ()
• 2. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (Lisa Liel)
• 5. Re: Tal Umattar (Avi Goldstein)
• 6. Re: vav-yud-shin-quf (Zev Sero)
• 7. Re: vav-yud-shin-quf (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Brocha on Potato Latkes and Potato Kugel (Prof. Levine)
• 9. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (David and Esther Bannett)
• 10. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (Simon Montagu)
• 11. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (Zev Sero)
• 12. More on Brocha on Potato Latkes and Potato Kugel (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: vav-yud-shin-quf (Michael Poppers)
• 14. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: ziyun-vav-dalet (Micha Berger)

 
From: Sholom Simon via Avodah  <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>


>>  During the leining of  vayeitze a few weeks back, I noticed something 
that kinda stuck out at  me.

Vav-yud-shin-quf was used twice in the space of six words, but one  
time it meant to "water the sheep" and the other time it was Yaakov  
kissing Rachel. (24:10-11).

I've got nothing to say about it, other  than it struck me that two 
essential/crucial words with such different  meaning and the same 
spellings would be so close to each  other.

Thoughts, anyone?  <<

--  Sholom





>>>>>
 
 
I long ago noticed the same thing and indeed have noticed many places in  
Tanach where words with similar sounds occur in close proximity to each other 
 (not that I can think of any good examples right now -- maybe others can  
think of some).  I hope this isn't a maskilisha or apikorsisha thing for  me 
to say, but I think it has to do with the fact that the Torah is, among  
other things, shira -- poetry.   In addition to the multiple levels of  
meaning in the words of the Torah, there is also attention paid to the very  sound 
of the words -- i.e., to the beauty and esthetic aspect of the Torah's  
language.
 
I would like to think of examples that occur in Chumash -- I know there are 
 some -- but at this moment the only example I can think of is in Shoftim 
and  it's not the best example because it occurs in a pasuk which is  
explicitly labeled as shira, not in a narrative passage.  That is Shoftim  15:16 
where Shimshon sings or says shira of thanks to Hashem and says, "With the  
jawbone of a donkey I piled up piles [of enemy bodies]."  
 
The word for donkey is chamor and the words Shimshon uses for piling up  
piles is "chamor chamorasayim."  
"Belechi hachamor, chamor chamorasayim."
 
 
Metzudas Dovid says there that Shimshon deliberately used these words  for 
their euphony -- "Loshon hanofel al loshon."
 
 

--Toby Katz
t6...@aol.com
..
=============


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On 12/08/2014 01:21 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 09:50:50AM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
> : The root of vayazed (he stewed) is n-z-d.  The nun is weak and
> : drops, like vayipol, which is from n-f-l.  It's specific to
> : preparing nezid.
>
> I had a rebbe who defined vayazed as slow cooking, and that it was the
> biblical Hebrew verb one would use for cooking chulent.
>
> NZD vs NVZ would be close enough for RSRH to find a common meta-root
> based on his linguistic rules.

Where did NVZ come from?

On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 09:50:50AM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
: The root of vayazed (he stewed) is n-z-d.  The nun is weak and
: drops, like vayipol, which is from n-f-l.  It's specific to
: preparing nezid.

I had a rebbe who defined vayazed as slow cooking, and that it was the
biblical Hebrew verb one would use for cooking chulent.

NZD vs NVZ would be close enough for RSRH to find a common meta-root
based on his linguistic rules. I also think they're close enough for
Sholom and Zev, two chassidically inclined individuals, to find the
similarity significant enough to darshen.

(I am not sure NVZ vs NYZ would be different shorashim. As in Chava is
from /ch-y-h/, hyh and hvh, or the flexibility behyind menuchah and
lehaniyach... Tangentially, Ibn Janach [early 11th cent, mostly Andalusia,
but was born in Cordoba and died in Zargoza] only has one biblical Hebrew
word that begins with vav -- vav!
<http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=36864&;pgnum=166>
But I noticed to do so, he identifies /vhb/ with /yhb/. And that's
less tangential.)

As for the OP, I think RSSimon's suggestion runs counter the general
flow in Chazal. Chazal depict the nezid adashim as mourning food for
Yitzchaq, who was eating round lentils because Avraham AAH had just
passed away. That the story emphasizes Esav's callousness, that he was
out killing Nimrod and running around until he was starving the day his
zeidi passed away. (Who in turn passed away that day to be spared the
sight of such an einikel.) Making the sale preplanned by Yaaqov would
undo all that. It also would be inconsistent with the resistence he gives
Rivqa later when she plots the next (?) step in getting the berakhos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On 12/8/2014 12:21 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 09:50:50AM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
> : The root of vayazed (he stewed) is n-z-d.  The nun is weak and
> : drops, like vayipol, which is from n-f-l.  It's specific to
> : preparing nezid.
>
> I had a rebbe who defined vayazed as slow cooking, and that it was the
> biblical Hebrew verb one would use for cooking chulent.
>
> NZD vs NVZ would be close enough for RSRH to find a common meta-root
> based on his linguistic rules. I also think they're close enough for
> Sholom and Zev, two chassidically inclined individuals, to find the
> similarity significant enough to darshen.

Certainly true.

> (I am not sure NVZ vs NYZ would be different shorashim. As in Chava is
> from /ch-y-h/, hyh and hvh, or the flexibility behyind menuchah and
> lehaniyach...
I'm not sure those examples are pertinent.  Verbs with yud or vav in the 
middle are commonly switched without changing meanings.  Lasum, lasim, 
for example.  And menucha and l'haniach are both from the root nach.  I 
can see linking nzd and zyd on levels of midrash or remez, but I don't 
see it with pshat.

Lisa



> Tangentially, Ibn Janach [early 11th cent, mostly Andalusia,
> but was born in Cordoba and died in Zargoza] only has one biblical Hebrew
> word that begins with vav -- vav!
> <http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=36864&;pgnum=166>
> But I noticed to do so, he identifies /vhb/ with /yhb/. And that's
> less tangential.)
>
> As for the OP, I think RSSimon's suggestion runs counter the general
> flow in Chazal. Chazal depict the nezid adashim as mourning food for
> Yitzchaq, who was eating round lentils because Avraham AAH had just
> passed away. That the story emphasizes Esav's callousness, that he was
> out killing Nimrod and running around until he was starving the day his
> zeidi passed away. (Who in turn passed away that day to be spared the
> sight of such an einikel.) Making the sale preplanned by Yaaqov would
> undo all that. It also would be inconsistent with the resistence he gives
> Rivqa later when she plots the next (?) step in getting the berakhos.
>
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha
>

Micha wrote: "Abayei lived a century after R' Ada lent his own name to a
more precise
tequfah. And Abayei lived in a time when the people of Bavel could compute
the date of YT for themselves, because he is the one to make the taqanah
to continue keeping minhag avoseihem. IOW, R' Adda's tequfah was broadly
accepted as more precise in Abayei's day, never mind in Shemu'el's day."

First, you may be right and I may be crazy, but I am uncertain how you know
that in Abaye's day, Rav Adda's calculation was broadly accepted,
especially since nowhere in the Gemara is that calculation attributed to
Rav Adda!

But even if you are correct, I don't see how it makes a difference. For the
purposes of intercalation, we could use Shmuel's calendar instead of Rav
Adda's. The difference in the error is not enough to impact the yamim tovim
for thousands of years!
And as far as Birkat HaChamah, it also makes no difference which tekufah we
use, because neither yields the result that we  live with today: making the
brachah every 28 years.
And again, you keep talking about my "assumption" that Birkat HaChamah is
supposed to pinpoint a specific time and you argue that I am wrong.
Unfortunately, the timing of the brachah is depicted as reflecting the
exact time of teliyas hame'oros. I don't know how you can get around this.
Finally, regardless of how uncomfortable this may be, we can't prove that
Shmuel was baki in astronomy simply because he says so. He certainly
believed he was expert, but just as we are aware of other scientific errors
in the Gemara (despite the fact that the tannaim and amoraim believed
themselves to be correct), so it seems evident that Shmuel erred.
Avi Goldstein
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On 12/08/2014 02:23 PM, via Avodah wrote:
> I would like to think of examples that occur in Chumash -- I know there are some -- but at this moment the only example I can think of is in Shoftim

There are many examples of puns in the Torah.  One that we say every
day is "Va`avadtem elohim acherim ... va'avadtem meheira".

And, of course, there's "vayihyu sheneihem `arumim...vehanachash
haya `arum".

R"n Toby Katz wrote:

> I long ago noticed the same thing and indeed have noticed many
> places in Tanach where words with similar sounds occur in close
> proximity to each other ...
> I hope this isn't a maskilisha or apikorsisha thing for me to
> say, but I think it has to do with the fact that the Torah is,
> among other things, shira -- poetry.
> In addition to the multiple levels of meaning in the words of
> the Torah, there is also attention paid to the very sound of the
> words ...

I don't think I'll ever forget hearing Rav Mendel Weinbach explain why the
Torah uses the word "shirah" to describe itself, in Parshas Vayelech
(31:19), by the mitzvah to write a Sefer Torah: "kisvu lachem es haShirah
hazos."

He said that the feature which most distinguishes prose from poetry is that
for prose, the ikar is the words themselves. "What you see is what you
get," I think he said. But for poetry, the ikar is, in his words, that
which is "between the lines".

(The same point is made in ArtScroll's introduction to Shir HaShirim ("Poem
of Poems"), where they point out that one who translates its words
literally has utterly failed to understand it even on the simplest level --
The *allegorical* meaning is the true one.)

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Odd Trick Fights Diabetes
"Unique" Proven Method To Control Blood Sugar In 3 Weeks. Watch Video.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5486d65cc44b0565c4226st01vuc

The following is from today's Ben Olam Haba 
(http://halachafortodaycom.blogspot.com/) YL

1) The Bracha on "Latkes- those delicious potato pancakes that are 
traditionally eaten on Chanukah" which are made from grated potatoes 
is "Borei pri Ho'Adama" as usually one can still recognize the potatoes.

2) However if the potatoes were blended so finely that they aren't 
recognizable  as potatoes, the Bracha recited on them is "SheHakol 
NihYoh B'Devaro".

The same Halacha applies to potato kugel. (Psak of Rav Shlomo Zalman 
Auerbach Zatzal)


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I'm known as not being a friend of dikduk bcause of the tendency to make
a grammatical rule and then change the Torah to match the rule.

Uv'khol zot, I'll comment. Even Shoshan and the list of Hebrew verbs
do not have a shoresh NZ"D or ZY"D.

The only existing verb is ZV"D. N'zid is is not from the shoresh NZ"D
which doesn't exist but was made from ZV"D with the meaning of the hif'il
of ZV"D.

The word vayazed is hif'il and like vayarem from RVM, and vayakem from
KVM, we have vayazed from ZVD.

bivrakha,
David

PS: After birth of a daughter, Sefaradim make a zeved habat. What is
the meaning of zeved based on either of the two meanings of the shoresh.

On Tue, Dec 9, 2014 at 6:29 AM, David and Esther Bannett via Avodah <
avo...@lists.aishdas.org> wrote:

PS: After birth of a daughter, Sefaradim make a zeved habat. What is
> the meaning of zeved based on either of the two meanings of the shoresh.
>

Zeved habat is ZBD, as in "zevadani ... zeved tov"
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On 12/09/2014 09:29 AM, David and Esther Bannett via Avodah wrote:
> PS: After birth of a daughter, Sefaradim make a zeved habat. What is
> the meaning of zeved based on either of the two meanings of the shoresh.

It has no connection to any ZVD shoresh at all, since the middle letter
is a veit, not a vav.  The meaning should now be obvious.

Earlier today I sent out

The following is from today's Ben Olam Haba ( 
http://halachafortodaycom.blogspot.com/) YL

1) The Bracha on "Latkes- those delicious potato pancakes that are 
traditionally eaten on Chanukah" which are made from grated potatoes 
is "Borei pri Ho'Adama" as usually one can still recognize the potatoes.

2) However if the potatoes were blended so finely that they aren't 
recognizable  as potatoes, the Bracha recited on them is "SheHakol 
NihYoh B'Devaro".

The same Halacha applies to potato kugel. (Psak of Rav Shlomo Zalman 
Auerbach Zatzal)

However,  it seems that not everyone agrees with this.

The following is from http://oukosher.org/guide-to-blessings/#vegetables

Potato Kugel (homemade) Ha-adamah Borei Nefashot

Potato Kugel (made from potato flour) Ha-adamah Borei Nefashot As per 
Rav Belsky, since today most potatoes are processed into flakes and 
flour. (See Mishnah Berurah 202:42-44)

Potato Latkes (from potato flour) Ha-adamah Borei Nefashot As per Rav 
Belsky, since today most potatoes are processed into flakes and 
flour. (See Mishnah Berurah 202:42-44)

Potato Latkes (from real potatoes) Ha-adamah Borei Nefashot If a 
substantial amount of flour of the Five Principal Species is used, 
Mezonot is required.

Also,  from the same URL

Potato Salad Ha-adamah Borei Nefashot

Potatoes, Instant Ha-adamah Borei Nefashot As per Rav Belsky, since 
today most potatoes are processed into flakes and flour. (See Mishnah 
Berurah 202:42-44)

Potatoes, Mashed Ha-adamah Borei Nefashot

YL


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RSS and R'Micha may be interested in this *d'var Torah* by my YRSRH
*chaveir*, R'Aryeh Klapper:

http://www.torahleadership.org/categories/vayetze.pdf


All the best from
*Michael Poppers* * Elizabeth, NJ, USA
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While I too would look for poetic or lyrical elements in the Torah (es
hashirah hazos, as RAM notes) I presume omnisignificance in the Torah.

So, when RnTK writes:
> In addition to the multiple levels of meaning in the words of the
> Torah, there is also attention paid to the very sound of the words --
> i.e., to the beauty and esthetic aspect of the Torah's language.

While I'm inclined to agree, I don't find it sufficient to answer the
question. Why did the RBSO pick bedavqa these words to create poetic
beauty? The fact is our attention is being drown to the words because
of their poetic sound, and that too must have a lesson to extract.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             What you get by achieving your goals
mi...@aishdas.org        is not as important as
http://www.aishdas.org   what you become by achieving your goals.
Fax: (270) 514-1507              - Henry David Thoreau

On Mon, Dec 08, 2014 at 12:43:19PM -0600, Lisa Liel wrote:
: >(I am not sure NVZ vs NYZ would be different shorashim. As in Chava is
: >from /ch-y-h/, hyh and hvh, or the flexibility behyind menuchah and
: >lehaniyach...
: 
: I'm not sure those examples are pertinent.  Verbs with yud or vav in
: the middle are commonly switched without changing meanings.  Lasum,
: lasim, for example.  And menucha and l'haniach are both from the
: root nach.  I can see linking nzd and zyd on levels of midrash or
: remez, but I don't see it with pshat.

I'm not sure about your positing a two letter root, "nach"; I never
learned that system of grammar. My Hebrew teachers always dug up a
third letter. As in /n-w-ches/, /nwb/ (eg tenuvah), etc... I know
Rashi taught another system, but I don't knowit.

But hoveh and Chavah are unlike manuchah and lehaniach or most of those
cases because the vav is being used as a full consonant, taking a segol
and patach, respectively.

But then there are also peh-hapo'al examples: /v-ayin-d/ = /y-ayind-d/,
/vhb/ = /yhb/.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Here is the test to find whether your mission
mi...@aishdas.org        on Earth is finished:
http://www.aishdas.org   if you're alive, it isn't.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Richard Bach


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