Avodah Mailing List

Volume 32: Number 141

Wed, 08 Oct 2014

• 1. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Rich, Joel)
• 2. shemen zayit in suka (saul newman)
• 3. Re: Judaism is not a religion (Arie Folger)
• 4. Re: Judaism is not a religion (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Why an apple? (Zev Sero)
• 6. Shofar (Cantor Wolberg)
• 7. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Why an apple? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Rich, Joel)
• 11. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Micha Berger)
• 12. Hamburger on a plate (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Hamburger on a plate (Kenneth Miller)
• 14. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: Avinu malkeinu (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Ben sorer u'moreh (David Riceman)
• 17. Visiting Zoos in Halacha (Prof. Levine)

Similarly, one might say that in a normal year, Erev YK is so festive that
we skip Avinu Malkenu. But in a year such as this, when we're going to have
to skip it all Shabbos long, there's room to allow saying it on Erev
Shabbos at Shacharis.

_______________________________________________
Yes, but what I was wondering about is the concept of the need for a
"makeuo" prior to yom kippur at all. Is there some number of avinu
malkeinus that must be said etc.
Gt
Joel rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

http://ladaat.info/showgil.aspx?par=20141009&;gil=654
see page one  for the suka-chanuka connection
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20141005/0a8078e6/attachment-0001.htm>

RLLevine wrote:

> The following is from RSRH's Tishrei VI in volume II of the Collected
> writings and I think that again RSRH makes it clear the Judaism is
> not a religion.  (The entire essay may be read at
> http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/tishrei_VI.pdf
<http://web.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/tishrei_VI.pdf>)
>
<SNIP>
>
> Not "belief' but "knowledge," not "sentiment" but "determination
> and accomplishment;" these are the energies through which the
> "Jewish religion" becomes manifest. And for that very reason Judaism
> is not a "religion." It has no part with any of the facets that other
> "religions" emphasize as the "essence of religion." He who would drag
> Judaism down to the level of "belief' divorced from knowledge, who
> would place also at the head of the "Jewish faith" all the nebulous
> subjectivism which indulges in "devout impulses" and have these
> notions constitute the basic requirements of the Jewish "religion,"
> cannot be one of the "priests of the Lord." He is in reality one of the
> priestlings of paganism who exploit vague sentiment and sensibilities
> for the worship of their own delusions, whose harvest, therefore, has
> mostly been grief and mourning, misery and distress.

I think it is fairly obvious that he is railing Protestant bourgeois
attitudes, which, through Reform, were seeping quickly into the Jewish
communities. He may also have been railing against some Catholic attitudes.
What religion emphasizes belief though does not require knowledge?
Catholicism, where only priests and theologians need knowledge (with the
exception of some less well known orders or movements, like the
Neocatechumenal Way). What religion puts feeling ahead of action? That is a
very Christian attitude (even as there are many Christian organizations
centered on certain actions), reinforced by the Enlightenment that sought
to banish religion to ever more confined spaces.

So Rav Hirsch was railing against assimilating certain priorities from
surrounding societies, and distanced himself from the Christian attitudes
in 19th Century Germany.


-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Wie entstand und was bedeutet der bevorstehender Fastentag des 17. Tammus
* Do Not Forget, Do Not Shove it Under the Carpet
* ORD-Seminar in Regensburg
* Nach welchem Prinzip sind die f?nf B?cher Mose organisiert?
* R?ckblick auf Limmud.de
* In the Paris Jewish community, more women than men are recalcitrant
spouses.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20141006/878a3ca0/attachment-0001.htm>

At 08:00 AM 10/6/2014, Arie Folger wrote:
>What religion puts feeling ahead of action? That is a very Christian 
>attitude (even as there are many Christian organizations centered on 
>certain actions), reinforced by the Enlightenment that sought to 
>banish religion to ever more confined spaces.

Chassidus also put feeling ahead of action in the beginning amongst 
certain groups,  for example,  davening late.  I also some vestiges 
of this in some of things that some do today.

YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20141006/6c910f96/attachment-0001.htm>

On 5/10/2014 10:55 PM, Michael Poppers via Avodah wrote:
In Avodah V32n138, RJM asked:
>> When did we start defining "apple" as apple?

> Which "apple" is being referenced within the sources mentioned in this article?
> http://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/38
> 0551/jewish/The-Apple-Revealed.htm

Thanks in advance.

Whichever one the Gemara and Zohar meant by "tapuach". (Which may or may not
be the same as the one Shir Hashirim meant, but it probably is the same.)

--
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

Is a shofar muqtza when someone doesn?t know anybody who has yet to fulfill the mitzvah?
Cantor Wolberg

R' Joel Rich asked:

<<< what I was wondering about is the concept of the need for a
"makeup" prior to yom kippur at all. Is there some number of avinu
malkeinus that must be said etc. >>

I'm not aware of any such. I've always presumed that it is simply due to
the emotional attachment many have for this particular tefila. (I've since
gotten used to it, but there was a time when I felt sort of cheated out of
the opportunity to say it in years like this.)

But as long as you've raised the idea of a set number of times to say it,
I'll ask about a similar thing: I find it curious that the *full* vidui
(including Ashamnu and Al Chet) is said exactly ten times from Mincha on
EYK through the silent Neilah. (Al Chet is omitted from the chazan's
Neilah.) Is there any significance to these ten?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Fast, Secure, NetZero 4G Mobile Broadband. Try it.
http://www.netzero.net/?refcd=NZINTISP0512T4GOUT2

On 6/10/2014 5:20 AM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Yes, but what I was wondering about is the concept of the need for a
> "makeuo" prior to yom kippur at all. Is there some number of avinu
> malkeinus that must be said etc.

It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
a tiny bit past the deadline".

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 07:58:40AM -0400, Zev Sero via Avodah wrote:
: Whichever one the Gemara and Zohar meant by "tapuach". (Which may or may not
: be the same as the one Shir Hashirim meant, but it probably is the same.)

Assuming the Zohar and Gemara meant the same thing. Rashbi was 400
years or so before R' Ashi, and there is evidence that the language
evolved (at the very least) until its publication in the 13th cent
Spain. (It constains Spanish words and sentence structures, and has
geographic references that couldn't have been in the Israeli-written
original.)

I would suggest that the minhag need only rely on associations with
the concept of tapuach, and not actually match the botanical species
the word referred to at any point in the past.

And therefore, unless you are REALLY sure that Tosafos are DEFINITELY
right, apple is the better choice -- for you.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 6/10/2014 5:20 AM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
> Yes, but what I was wondering about is the concept of the need for a
> "makeup" prior to yom kippur at all. Is there some number of avinu
> malkeinus that must be said etc.

It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
a tiny bit past the deadline".

---------------------------------------
Not if the practice is to say it at neilah.
GT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 02:42:11PM -0400, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
: It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
: a tiny bit past the deadline".

One is permitted to say ne'ilah before sheqi'ah. However, it's more
typically said bein hashemashos. (And possibly much later than geonic
tzeis, if use a fixed, degree-corrected or sha'ah zemanis 3/4 mil.)

We can separate demai bein hashemashos, but not issur gamur.

The problem with baqashos are similarly derabbanan, and shouldn't be an
issue when talking bein hashemashos letzorekh mitzvah.

And I would give a similar answer when talking about muqtza or even
the actual blowing of the shofar at the end of ne'ilah. Even without
being definitely after tzeis, I believe it would be mutar because it's
a derabbanan bein hashemashos (safeiq derabbanan added to) letzorekh
mitzvah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Oct 05, 2014 at 01:22:44PM +0000, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
: This case reminds me of a psak in the Igros Moshe (OC 4:74:5) about
: putting cold ketchup onto hot meat on Shabbos. Ostensibly, a solid piece
: of meat has the halachos of a kli rishon even when it is in your plate...

Looking it up, R' Shimon Eider asked a list of questions. #5 mentioned
that there are two chumeros involved that may mean one shouldn't put
neither catsup nor ketchup on basar roseiach:

1- The Maharshal says that a hot davar gush is a keli rishon. (This
caught my by surprise, which is why I took a look. According to the IM,
I think provided by RSE, the Maharshal is quoted in the Shakh YD 93 s"q
30 and the MA 318 s"q 45.)

2- The possibility of bishul achar bishul on a davar lakh, like the
catsup (Rama OC 318:15).

So, RSE, the sho'el, recognized that it's summing up chumeros. RMF
replied if it were just a sefeiq sefeiqa, maybe it would be a sensible
chumerah simply because Shabbos is so significance. Then he dismisses
these chumeros as even being of safeiq quality; both are very trumped
shitos. (Which made me a little less upset that I had never heard of
the Maharshal's shitah.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             None of us will leave this place alive.
mi...@aishdas.org        All that is left to us is
http://www.aishdas.org   to be as human as possible while we are here.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Anonymous MD, while a Nazi prisoner

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> 1- The Maharshal says that a hot davar gush is a keli rishon.
> (This caught my by surprise, which is why I took a look. ...

For the benefit of others who might be unfamiliar with this:

It can be found in Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata 2nd edition 1:58 (only one
paragraph on top, but more than a full page of footnotes). In 3rd edtion,
it is at 1:64. In 1st edition, 141.

In Rav Shimon Eider, it's on pages 253-254. In Rav Ribiat, pages 651-652.

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
Apple's dumbest idea yet…
Exclusive look at Apple's latest experiment… is it doomed to fail?
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5432f8df5570178df7549st03vuc

On 6/10/2014 7:12 AM, Kenneth Miller via Avodah wrote:
> But as long as you've raised the idea of a set number of times to say
> it, I'll ask about a similar thing: I find it curious that the*full*
> vidui (including Ashamnu and Al Chet) is said exactly ten times from
> Mincha on EYK through the silent Neilah.

There is no Al Chet in the silent Ne'ilah.

I was taught that there is indeed an inyan of ten Al Chets, and the
extra one is to be said privately before Kol Nidrei. But AIUI most
non-chassidic Ashkenazim have replaced that with something called
"tefila zaka", so they're left with nine.


On 6/10/2014 2:42 PM, Rich, Joel via Avodah wrote:
>> It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
>> a tiny bit past the deadline".

> Not if the practice is to say it at neilah.

Well, "last chance until ne'ilah", which is a long way off.

-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

On 6/10/2014 3:36 PM, Micha Berger via Avodah wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 06, 2014 at 02:42:11PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:

> : It's not a "make-up", it's a "last chance, even if it's technically just
> : a tiny bit past the deadline".

> One is permitted to say ne'ilah before sheqi'ah.

We're not talking about Ne'ilah, we're talking about Erev YK morning.
R Joel was considering it as a "make up", and wondering why that was
thought necessary.  I replied that it's not a "make up", it's a grabbing
in one more at the last minute, even if it's technically already past
the last minute.


-- 
Zev Sero             Sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable
z...@sero.name        from malice.
                                                          - Eric Raymond

RZS:

<<

or by
saying that RY was mistaken, and what he saw was not really a BSuM.

 >>

Nowhere does RB say that RY was mistaken: he says that RY was referring 
to a person who "lo hayah BSuM gamur".  RB's example is Avshalom.

Now we have no reason to think that Avshalom was a glutton or a drunkard 
as a youth, no reason to think that he had stolen food or drink, and no 
reason to think that his parents were alike in appearance and sound.  In 
fact his popularity would argue against the first two possibilities.  He 
was not qualified to be a BSuM. The point of comparison is that, as an 
adult, he rebelled against his father.

So RY, in this alternative, is not saying that BSuM was ever 
adjudicated, or even that he could ever be adjudicated.  He was pointing 
to the consequences of not adjudicating such cases.  And he was using a 
mashal - - e.g., k'gon Avshalom - - to do it.

So even though RY is indeed offering testimony, the testimony he is 
offering is not addressed to the question at hand - - it is an allegory.

David Riceman

Incidentally - RMB - do we get extra credit for using two letter 
acronyms instead of the traditional three?

DR

 From the article at 
http://seforim.blogspot.com/2014/10/visiting-zoos-in-halacha.html

Zoos are hotspots on Chol Hamoed. Standing together with the rest of 
Brooklyn or Yerushalayim, trying to give your children a glimpse of a 
penguin or seal or elephant, is always a pleasant way to spend a day. 
But what do the poskim have to say about visiting the zoo? [1]

  The Gemara in Berachos (58b) notes that if one sees a monkey or an 
elephant he should make the brachah "M'shaneh habriyos."This halachah 
is brought in the Tur and Shulchan Aruch. [2] There are a few 
questions to ask about this brachah. How often should the brachah be 
made? That is actually a machlokes Rishonim. The Ravi, known as the 
second Raavad, says that one makes this brachah of "M'shaneh 
habriyos" only once in 30 days on any specific animal, i.e., a 
particular elephant. However, if you see another animal, that is, a 
second elephant, you can make another M'shaneh Habriyos even within 
30 days of the first brachah. [3] The Radvaz quotes this Ravi. [4] 
However, the Tur quotes a Raavad that one only makes such a brachah 
once in a lifetime, as the effect that seeing this animal has on a 
person is a onetime thing. The Tur himself argues and says that, as 
the Ravi said, after 30 days one can make a brachah on the same 
animal again. The Mechaber paskens like the Raavad, and the Rema 
paskens like the Tur. The Shulchan Aruch Harav says when we say that 
this brachah is made only once in a lifetime, that refers to each 
kind of animal. [5] This is the opinion in Rabbi Aaron Eichorn's 
Mishnah Berurah [6] as well as that of Rav Elyashiv,[7] among others. 
However, the Shulchan Shlomo [8] and Aruch Hashulchan argue and are 
of the opinion that one can make the brachah again on this same 
animal after 30 days. [9] This is also the opinion of the Chazon Ish.

See the above URL for  more. YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20141008/42a484af/attachment.htm>

------------------------------



_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


------------------------------


***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)