Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 191

Tue, 19 Nov 2013

• 1. Re: Rashbam and peshat (Arie Folger)
• 2. Re: Ahavat Chinam (Meir Shinnar)
• 3. The canard of the Rabbinic redefinition of lineal descent in Judaism (Arie Folger)
• 4. Re: Rashbam and Pshat -- Unique Connection (David Wacholder)
• 5. Re: Ahavat Chinam (menucha)
• 6. Vayeishev (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 7. Re: Vayeishev (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Vayeishev (Lisa Liel)
• 9. Re: The canard of the Rabbinic redefinition of lineal descent in Judaism (Lisa Liel)
• 10. Skiing HaGomel (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 11. Halachicly Speaking - Thanksgiving and Eating Turkey (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 12. Re: The canard of the Rabbinic redefinition of lineal descent in Judaism (Arie Folger)
• 13. Re: Skiing HaGomel (harchinam)

RMB wrote, regarding Reuven's sin:
> Reuvein's cheit according to peshat in the pasuq (35:22), is MUCH more
> severe than the cheit described by R' Shmuel bar Nachmani on Shabbos
> 55b (as quoted by Rashi).
>
> The machloqes in the gemara is worth looking at. There is one opinion,
> R' Yehoshua, that says Reuvein actually sinned, but the amoraim
> gravitate toward minimizimg Ruvein's sin, then Eli's, Pinchas's, (56a)
> Shemu'el's, David's, and (56b) Shelomo's.

Well, I am not so sure we should create such a dichotomy between peshat and
derash here. The plain verses include here something very funny, strange.
There is a break within a single passuk, and the report of Reuven sinning
ends with the statement vayihyu benei yaaqov shemein assar (quoting from
memory). That last statement confirms that no matter how grave the sin of
Reuven, it wasn't enough to warrant him being excluded from the Shevatim. A
corollary is that the verse is possibly hinting taht the sin wasn't all
that grave, which inevitably leads to the question why not.

In this peshat tension, one may suggest different interpretations, and
while Chazal's seems at first sight surprising, it isn't actually outside
teh realm of peshat, once one takes in those graphic clues and the
juxtaposition of vayishkav and vayihyu benei yaaqov sheneim 'assar.

KT,


-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Berichte ?ber die CER-Konferenz in Berlin
* Media Reports from the Latest CER Conference
* Should we Circumcise the Children of Non-Members?
* Another Reason for More Widespread Use of Halakhic Prenups
* Kann man die Beschneidung nicht mit einem symbolischen Ritual ersetzen?
* I Made the Front Page?
* Sind innerreligi?se Ehen altmodisch und vorbei?
* Die ware Entstehungsgeschichte der Hatikw?-Hymne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20131118/b6192f65/attachment-0001.htm>

> LL
> With all due respect to Rav Kook, I don't think the Torah wants us to do 
> *anything* "chinam".
> Lisa
> 
> On 11/16/2013 10:43 PM, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
>> The remarkable Chief Rabbi, Abraham Isaac Kook, so moved by R? Akiva,
>> proclaimed that if Jerusalem and the Temple were destroyed because of
>> /sinas chinam/, the new Jewish Commonwealth would come alive by virtue
>> of /ahavas chinam. /
>> Furthermore, R? Kook insisted upon the chassidic dictum that ?In order to
>> love one who is not completely wicked, it is enough if one is only an 
>> incomplete
>> /tzaddik/, but in order to love one who is wholly wicked, it is 
>> necessary to be a
>> perfect /tzaddik/.?
>> I?m sorry to say that I see very little /ahavas chinam /amongst our 
>> own people.
> 
While  I have heard what Cantor Wolberg writes in the name of rav Kook, I
have also heard from other of his talmidim that they do not believe he ever
said it, (or at least did not meat it as commonly understood),	as for him,
ahava of a fellow Jew was by definition not ahavat hinam?.


Meir Shinnar

Rabbossai,

I am sure a great many of us have at one time or another been confronted
with the claim that until the time of the Mishna, Judaism was transmitted
through patrilineal descent, and it was "the rabbis" who changed that.
According to a further elaboration, that had been an act of mercy of the
many women who had been raped by Roman soldiers during the siege of
Jerusalem and later the Hadrianic persecutions.

I am not asking for Torah sources here, as they are well known. Ki yassir
et binkha me-a'harai, etc. Likewise the multiple sources in Tanakh that
condemn intermarriage are relevant. But that is not what I am asking for.

Instead, I wonder who first came up with this idea and evidence the
supporters of this idea marshal. We can much more effectively respond when
understanding their claims better.

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Berichte ?ber die CER-Konferenz in Berlin
* Media Reports from the Latest CER Conference
* Should we Circumcise the Children of Non-Members?
* Another Reason for More Widespread Use of Halakhic Prenups
* Kann man die Beschneidung nicht mit einem symbolischen Ritual ersetzen?
* I Made the Front Page?
* Sind innerreligi?se Ehen altmodisch und vorbei?
* Die ware Entstehungsgeschichte der Hatikw?-Hymne
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20131118/9c0076ca/attachment-0001.htm>

Eli Turkel in Avodah-31-186-#5 said - I am used to thinking of Rashbam as a
commentator that stresses pshat in the pasuk. BUT I FOUND 
Prof. Ron Kleinman. He points out that Rashbam (and Bchor Shor ) explains
the story of the lentils and ....SOLD BIRTHRIGHT FOR MONEY This is NOT
SIMPLE PSHAT! 
This is not simple pshat in the pasuk. ENDQUOTE

Well said! 
The Medieval "elephant in the kitchen" is the Church, with Unity of
Church/State regarding anti-Jewish legislation.

Considering the allegations of luxurious living in Rome current at the time,
writing about Eisav as lacking sincerity in his desire for Ruchanius would
have allowed an easy retort from Xtian debators.   Another possibly related
Pshat was that Eisav's life expectancy was so short that he could not plan
for long term gains. That fits with the Rashbam above. Indeed I missed the
nuance untice Eli Turkel pointed it out.  

Apologetics is a generic name of making sure your opponent does not get free
points. Burning the Talmud etc. was already in the air, and Rashbam and
Rashi were giving serious thought to combating it. 

Rashbam was the Grandson-In-Training in the last 15 years of RASHI,our main
commentator. It behooves us to check Rashi more closely for hints to his
opinion.

Rashi commented, often openly almost acridly, on the majority of Prakim of
Tehillim, disarming the Xtian trouble-makers' arguments. When after 100
years, license was given to print Jewish texts, the censorship was strong
and most anti-X references were erased and/or left as stubs. 

The censorship is discussed at length in "Chachmei Tzarfat Harishonim",
Magnes Books. As of the moment and my limited horizon, to my amazement, no
PhD reconstructed edition of Rashi on Neviim Ksuvim - "Chesronos HaRashi" -
is available.  Rashi was a precise and very careful writer and we can be
sure that anything he wrote is not going to cause an outbreak of
Anti-Semitism. 

Compare the Rashi and Rashbam on our most central Passuk, acceptance of
Burden of Majesty of Heaven - Shma Yisrael.  Rashi, fearing Eisav's forces,
deflects that to the end of days all will emerge into unity. With the above
in mind, it is at least possible that Rashi skirted the issue. 

The word Elokeinu, Rashi had abundant Midrashim, which he was not free to
use too openly. 

The word Elokeinu - the Malbim on Mishpatim, Shalosh P'amim Bashana - on
Mechilta discussing the contrast between the Pasuk of Aliyya Laregel in
Mishpatim which is short, and in Ki Tisa where it is long. Without
lengthening my prose, the Unique Bond of Yisrael and Hashem is stressed.
This is a basic Midrash, with 25 sources.

In the vein of discomfort, related to natural discomfort akin to praising
oneself, Yaakov's Neder - beginning Vayeitzei - "Vehaya Hashem Li
Lei-Lo-Kim" =  at the end of a Passuk may be construed as either the
condition, or the first result - Yaakov will uphold and trust Hashem. Which
direction does it go? The problem continues as Yaakov names his wells - the
House of Keil - three different versions, and I am just highlighting the
problem, not dangling a conclusion. I am fascinated and puzzled. 

Rashbam learns - sending us first to another place - that the "Shma" means
expressing our unreserved and undivided trust in Hashem. The obverse? Or
other side - is trusting Other forces - forces belonging to Other Nations
and other Geographical locations. We unreservedly commit our trust ONLY TO
HASHEM. The famous Passuk - the nations did not recognize the Elokei
Ha'aretz - means that non-Covenanters are not part of the covenant - they
need not TRUST ONLY HASHEM. That is a different precision of "Shituf",
perhaps even permitted for non-Jews. 

I submit that this may be the position of many non-Philosophy Rishonim, and
perhaps also Mekubalim. The big prize would be nailing down proof that Rashi
agrees or disagrees. Pending counter-instances, regarding Rashbam I am
confident that my understanding of his position is valid. 

I am less confident and sanguine that my choice of words is correct. 

Jewish Uniqueness cannot be waved like a "flag of battle" when we are
surrounded by angry mobs. That is why European translations - risking
redundance - used - G-d our G-d to translate every Bracha. Risking offense
is risking the lives of the Jewish People. Of course, subtly, we cannot lose
the idea completely either.  

Universalism is a true and sound doctrine, as long as it does not destroy
Jewish Uniqueness. 
  

It is written in Orot Hakodesh 3 323, so it is hard to understand that 
there are talmidim who do not believe he ever said it.

>While  I have heard what Cantor Wolberg writes in the name of rav Kook,
>I have also heard from other of his talmidim that they do not believe
>he ever said it, (or at least did not meat it as commonly understood), 
>as for him, ahava of a fellow Jew was by definition not ahavat hinam?.
>
>
>Meir Shinnar
>
>
>
>  
>

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20131118/60976771/attachment-0001.htm>

This coming week we read about dreams. There is so much literature on dreams.
It?s one thing to dream but it?s even more important to fulfill them.
Sometimes dreams come true and sometimes they are shattered. 
In this spirit I quote an American Poet Laureate, Edwin Markham (1852-1940) who 
succinctly expressed some of these ideas in a poem:

Ah, greater it is to believe the dream
As we stand in youth by the starry stream; 
But a greater thing it is to fight life through,
And say at the end, ?The dream is true!?

A very apropos midrash on the above topic could have been written by Lewis Mumford (1895-1990):

?Man?s destiny is a great one because the essence of it is tragic. All that he builds crumbles.
All that he embodies turns to dust. all that he loves most, he must one day leave behind him.
That which alone endures on earth is the spirit in which he understands and meets his fate.
This he passes on to his children and his comrades; only a breath, indeed, but the breath of
life. Death comes to all, but death comes best to those who are ready to die, so that man may live.?

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20131118/15258b16/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 12:04:34PM -0500, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
: This coming week we read about dreams...

Really, about prophetic visions, which for want of a shared lexicon
with those of us who never experienced prophecy, we call by the
nearest familiar experience -- dream.

In Hebrew it's a chazon, a vision, with less specificity.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 11/18/2013 1:31 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 12:04:34PM -0500, cantorwolb...@cox.net wrote:
> : This coming week we read about dreams...
>
> Really, about prophetic visions, which for want of a shared lexicon
> with those of us who never experienced prophecy, we call by the
> nearest familiar experience -- dream.
>
> In Hebrew it's a chazon, a vision, with less specificity.
>    
I'm with Cantor Wolberg on this.  The word used is chalom; not chazon.

Lisa

I had a professor in college named Joe Rosenbloom.  He wrote a book 
called "Conversion to Judaism: From the Biblical Period to the 
Present".  It was published by HUC Press, and later by Ktav.  It's 
pretty much the party line from the Reform Movement on the issues of 
conversion and descent.

I haven't read it.  I had quite enough of him in college.

On this page:

http://www.reformjudaism.org/ask-rabbi-topic/patrilineal-descent

A Reform clergyman says that no one really knows how it was done before 
the "beginning of Rabbinic Judaism" around the time of the Mishnah.

When I was in college, right around the time that Reform formally 
adopted patrilineal descent (1983), though they'd been going by it 
unofficially by decades at that point, Hillel House had a Friday night 
talk on the subject.  I remember very clearly the rationale that was 
given by the speakers.  They pointed out that since Brezhnev's son 
married a Jew, his grandchildren were Jewish, and since Ben Gurion's son 
married a goy, his grandchildren were goyim.  QED, there's something 
wrong with a system that goes by matrilineal descent.  In all honesty, 
that was his argument.

Of course, the real reason for patrilineal descent is that, along with 
conversion at will, it allowed them to vastly increase their reported 
membership by redefining goyim as Jews.  It was a practical and 
financial decision.

Lisa


On 11/18/2013 8:21 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
> Rabbossai,
>
> I am sure a great many of us have at one time or another been 
> confronted with the claim that until the time of the Mishna, Judaism 
> was transmitted through patrilineal descent, and it was "the rabbis" 
> who changed that. According to a further elaboration, that had been an 
> act of mercy of the many women who had been raped by Roman soldiers 
> during the siege of Jerusalem and later the Hadrianic persecutions.
>
> I am not asking for Torah sources here, as they are well known. Ki 
> yassir et binkha me-a'harai, etc. Likewise the multiple sources in 
> Tanakh that condemn intermarriage are relevant. But that is not what I 
> am asking for.
>
> Instead, I wonder who first came up with this idea and evidence the 
> supporters of this idea marshal. We can much more effectively respond 
> when understanding their claims better.
>
> Kol tuv,
> -- 
> Arie Folger,
> Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
> * Berichte ?ber die CER-Konferenz in Berlin
> * Media Reports from the Latest CER Conference
> * Should we Circumcise the Children of Non-Members?
> * Another Reason for More Widespread Use of Halakhic Prenups
> * Kann man die Beschneidung nicht mit einem symbolischen Ritual ersetzen?
> * I Made the Front Page?
> * Sind innerreligi?se Ehen altmodisch und vorbei?
> * Die ware Entstehungsgeschichte der Hatikw?-Hymne
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>    
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20131118/1087a9a0/attachment-0001.htm>

Is it not that the danger, as far as Halacha is concerned, is not measured
by statistics but by whether the activity is deemed to be a normal accepted
activity pursued by normal average people. Thus flying, although a normal
activity, is only undertaken by pilots monitored by very strict testing and
government oversight. This is quite different to driving a car, truck or
train.

Skiing becomes a question therefore of how accepted and normal is this
activity. And surely we must differentiate between different types of
skiing.

Cruising a rope bridge is normal in Peru but not so in Australia. There are
tours guiding people over the upper supporting structure of Sydney harbour
bridge. They must wear full climbing harnesses and have themselves
constantly served to safety lines. I am unaware of anyone being injured but
am fairly sure that one must Bentsch  HaGomel and ought not take such a
tour.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20131119/4e156715/attachment-0001.htm>

Wearing a coloured shoelace or tying it in a particular manner is
prohibited YeHoreg VeAl YaAvor. It need have no significance other than
being a symbol that displays allegiance to a pagan value.

If thanksgiving developed a custom of wearing white socks or a regular hat
with a recognisable pinch in it, this too would become the ArKeSa DeMeSaAna
of our times and be prohibited YeHoreg VeAl YaAvor.

Reb Avigdor said that he consulted 3 Koshere Goyim (encyclopaedias) who all
classified thanksgiving as a church holiday
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20131119/352b506c/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net> wrote:

> A Reform clergyman says that no one really knows how it was done before
> the "beginning of Rabbinic Judaism" around the time of the Mishnah.


That's actually quite magnanimous, coming from them.


[Email #2. -micha]

Actually, I perused the site you linked to,
http://www.reformjudaism.org/ask-rabbi-topic/patrilineal-descent , and find
both the half admission by Reform Rabbi Peter Haas that:

> It is *not* *necessarily* the case that these laws were in operation
> in just this way back in Biblical times, let alone the time of Abraham.

I.e., not necessarily like the Mishna, but not necessarily not like the
Mishna. For a Reform rabbi, that's already a big admission.

But on the same page, I find as well as the baseless definite claim (in an
unattributed blurb):

> Historically, since the Rabbinic period (post 70 CE), Jewish status was
> passed down by the mother. ... Prior to this period, the Bible recognized
> patrilineal descent ...

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Berichte ber die CER-Konferenz in Berlin
* Media Reports from the Latest CER Conference
* Should we Circumcise the Children of Non-Members?
* Another Reason for More Widespread Use of Halakhic Prenups
* Kann man die Beschneidung nicht mit einem symbolischen Ritual ersetzen?
* I Made the Front Page...
* Sind innerreligise Ehen altmodisch und vorbei?
* Die ware Entstehungsgeschichte der Hatikw-Hymne

I don't understand why you say that one shouldn't take a tour in which one
is tethered to a safety line -- is that not much, much better than the way
that the natives do it in Peru? And why would one have to bentsch gomel
after doing something that, at the end of the day does not carry a risk of
death as one is doing it [in other words, if it is being done with all
safety precautions taken]?

Childbirth, no matter how modern and sanitary still carries a risk of death
and surprises happen every day in the labor and delivery department so it
makes perfect sense to bentsch gomel after giving birth, but after some
tour?

*** Rena



On Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 11:12 PM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher! <
ra...@itskosher.com.au> wrote:

> Cruising a rope bridge is normal in Peru but not so in Australia. There
> are tours guiding people over the upper supporting structure of Sydney
> harbour bridge. They must wear full climbing harnesses and have themselves
> constantly served to safety lines. I am unaware of anyone being injured but
> am fairly sure that one must Bentsch  HaGomel and ought not take such a
> tour.
>
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20131119/b6983029/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 31, Issue 191
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


A list of common acronyms is available at
        http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/acronyms.cgi
(They are also visible in the web archive copy of each digest.)