Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 161

Thu, 12 Sep 2013

• 1. Pills on Yom Kippur (Micha Berger)
• 2. Text of Alenu (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher!)
• 3. Re: Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Lisa Liel)
• 4. Re: Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 5. Re: Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Rosh Hashana: The Universal Two Day Yom Tov (Prof. Levine)
• 8. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day (Chana Luntz)
• 9. Whats the truth about Tashlich (Rabbi Meir G. Rabi)
• 10. Why does cold trump hot (JOSEPH MOSSERI)
• 11. Re: Pills on Yom Kippur (Saul Guberman)
• 12. Re: Pills on Yom Kippur (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: How many Korban Pesachs could be sacrificed in 1 day (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: Text of Alenu (Zev Sero)
• 15. Re: What's the Truth About Tashlich? (Moshe Y. Gluck)

Growing up, those who expected caffeine-withdrawal headaches, or just
pain from fasting, would make sure to have suppositories. About 10 years
ago I saw caffeine capsules, time released. Today I was informed about
a tzedaqah selling long-term time-release pain killers as a fundraiser.

But I'm wondering... Why? Why is taking a regular pill when you have a
headache considered akhilah? It's not ra'ui la'akhilah. It's not even an
issue of being flavored and achshevei. I know there is something to this
"don't enjoy the taste" thing because the Shemiras Shabbos keHilkhisah
39:8 recommends wrapping pleasantly flavored pills in a thin paper and
then swalloing.

The only thing I could think of was the Chasam Sofer (Chiddushim on RH 9a)
would not allow taking something that alleviates the inui of fasting. BUT,
that would apply to a time-release pill taking erev YK as well.

So can someone please explain to me the whole pills-on-YK
thing? (Hopefully I'm more alert than during the "Yihyu leRatzon Imrei
Finu" thing and actually will understand the explanation.)

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

When I posted -
It is not possible for a Sefer of authentic Jewish tradition to endorse or
encourage activity that endangers Jewish life in any way. To suggest
otherwise suggests that one has an unreal, skewed, romantic perspective of
Yiddishkeit.

- I was responding to an earlier posting that somehow glorified the reading
of this prayer (and one would imagine other religious activities) even in
circumstances where doing this would endanger the life of the reader.
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On 9/12/2013 2:24 PM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> In conclusion, we should realize that '/Yom Tov Sheini/' is not simply 
> a /chumra/, but rather /halacha/, established millennia ago by our 
> great leaders. Although those of us living in Eretz Yisrael are 
> largely exempt from its observance, we fortunately merit tasting its 
> extra /kedusha/ at least once a year: on Rosh Hashana!

See, and I would have phrased it differently.  "Although those of us 
living in Eretz Yisrael are zocheh to keep most yamim tovim the way they 
were originally intended to be observed, b'avonoteynu ha-rabbim, we are 
still stuck in the case of Rosh Hashanah."

Lisa
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At 05:39 PM 9/12/2013, Lisa Liel wrote:
>See, and I would have phrased it differently.  "Although those of us 
>living in Eretz Yisrael are zocheh to keep most yamim tovim the way 
>they were originally intended to be observed, b'avonoteynu 
>ha-rabbim, we are still stuck in the case of Rosh Hashanah."

I prefer the way he put it.  Are not we who do not live in EY zoche 
every year to extra days of kedusha that is d'rabanan that those in 
EY "miss out on."

YL

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 05:52:11PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: I prefer the way he put it.  Are not we who do not live in EY zoche 
: every year to extra days of kedusha that is d'rabanan that those in 
: EY "miss out on."

... and miss out on qedushah EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR.

Besides, a reason why Yom Tov sheini shel goliyos has value is because
it takes us two days in galus to achieve the same qedushah one can reach
in one day in Eretz Yisrael!

And this isn't just a nice vort.... It is invoked lehalakhah in favor of
keeping one day when in EY (or one plus the 2nd day lechumerah) because
being "machmir" and keeping two is actually insulting qedushas ha'aretz.

GCT!
-Micha

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 05:52:11PM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
: I prefer the way he put it.  Are not we who do not live in EY zoche 
: every year to extra days of kedusha that is d'rabanan that those in 
: EY "miss out on."

... and miss out on qedushah EVERY DAY OF THE YEAR.

Besides, a reason why Yom Tov sheini shel goliyos has value is because
it takes us two days in galus to achieve the same qedushah one can reach
in one day in Eretz Yisrael!

And this isn't just a nice vort.... It is invoked lehalakhah in favor of
keeping one day when in EY (or one plus the 2nd day lechumerah) because
being "machmir" and keeping two is actually insulting qedushas ha'aretz.

GCT!
-Micha

At 05:39 PM 9/12/2013, Lisa Liel wrote:
>See, and I would have phrased it differently.  "Although those of us 
>living in Eretz Yisrael are zocheh to keep most yamim tovim the way 
>they were originally intended to be observed, b'avonoteynu 
>ha-rabbim, we are still stuck in the case of Rosh Hashanah."

I prefer the way he put it.  Are not we who do not live in EY zoche 
every year to extra days of kedusha that is d'rabanan that those in 
EY "miss out on."

YL

From: Marty Bluke  <marty.bl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>>Recently I learned Pesachim 64b  (daf yomi) where the Gemara states 
>>that King Agrippas wanted to take a census  so he had the Cohanim count
the number of Korban Pesachs that were brought  and it came out to 1.2
million korbanos, 12 million people (10 to a  >>korban)....


>>1. The Korban Pesach is only brought in the afternoon of  the 14th of
Nisan ...That means that they had to sacrifice over 340,000  korbanos an
hour, over 5700 a minute and over 95 a second. >...

>>2. How could they possibly fit all of the people and animals in the
Azara?...The Beis Hamikdash was simply not that big...
 
>>....given the dimensions of the Mishkan and the Beis Hamikdash  and the
number of people, how did everyone ever bring a korban pesach? The  numbers
just don't work. ...

 >>>>
 
And RTK responded:

>I asked my brother, R' Shabsi Bulman, that question, and here is his
reply:
 

>"EVEN IF ONLY ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND PEOPLE WERE OLEH LAREGEL THE LOGISTICS  
>OF THEIR STAY WOULD BE NEAR IMPOSSIBLE. (ASK ANYONE WHO HAS BEEN TO A MAJOR

>LEVAYA.) IT IS OVERWHELMINGLY CLEAR THAT EVERYTHING ABOUT ALIYA LAREGEL IS

>MAASEH NISSIM FROM BEGINNING TO END. GMAR CHASIMA TOVA."
 
>That is similar to what REMT wrote here on Avodah:  "it is still  
>impossible without nissim."

The problem I have with this suggestion is that on this very daf, indeed,
just a few lines above, there is the famous machlokus between Rava and Abaye
on ... are we allowed to rely on nissim.

Here is the text of the gemora there in Pesachim 64b:
???? ???: ????? ???, ??? ???: ?????? ???. ??? ???????? ???? ??????? ?????
?????. ???? ???: ????? ???, ??? ?????? ???? - ??????? ?????. ??? ???: ??????
???, ??? ?????? ?????
  
"Abaye said: it was taught that it was closed [referring to the gates of the
azarah] , Rava said, that they closed it. What is between them? This is
between them: to rely on a miracle.  Abaye who says that it was closed, like
it was closed by itself and they relied on a miracle [to ensure there were
two other groups].  Rava says they closed it, and we do not rely on a
miracle. ..."
 
If the entirety of the aliya laregal and particularly the korban pesach was
ma'aseh nissim from beginning to end, then Rava's position is rendered
untenable - nobody went into the Azarah for pesach without relying on
countless miracles, so what is the closing of a door or allowing it to be
closed in the grand scheme of things?  

And generally machlokus Abaye and Rava we posken like Rava - so where does
that leave us halacha l'ma'seh?

I am somewhat reluctant to make this suggestion, because I do agree that the
most obvious pshat of the gemora is as R' Marty Bluke has given it, and this
is a stretch, but I wonder whether you could read this section so that when
it says that "he took a kidney from each one" is actually referring to while
initially taking a kidney not from each korban pesach, but against each one
who was counted against that korban pesach - as in, if there were ten people
counted for this pesach, he initially took the kidney, exchanged it for ten
tokens, and these ten tokens when then also called kidneys, because that is
what they were in exchange for.  Obviously the next portion of the gemora
did not understand it that way initially, as it clearly thought that he took
the actual kidneys, which is why it had a huge problem with this action
because the kidneys are needed to be burnt on the misbeach - but given the
gemora's resolution that in fact he only took the kidney from the korban
pesach for a moment until he was given some sort of token in exchange (which
allowed the korban pesach kidney to then be burnt on the mizbeach as
required), it could be that he took the kidney, and then gave it back in
exchange for some tokens that illustrated the numbers of people counted on
that korban, and those tokens were then themselves deemed (and called)
"kidneys" - and it is to those that the shishim ribui zugei kilos refers.
That would cut the numbers in the Azarah to at least a tenth of RMB's
calculation - which would still make for serious numbers,  but presumably
not enough to make Rava's position bizarre.

>Toby Katz

Gmar Chatima Tova

Chana

Professor Levine posted - It is interesting to note that there were those
who did not practice Tashlich at all. God doesn't desire only the symbolic
act of Tashlich or just the Davening and fasting on Yom Kippur. He wants
true repentance.

I must protest: this is true of all Mitzvos and customs and traditions.
Sounds like a shortcut to Xianity.
This is not to say that I am in favour of Tashlich. I am stuck in the
middle somewhere.
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So many people say that if one person is cold the HALACHA is that you have to close the window, turn off the airconditioner , etc..
Years ago I asked a rabbi and he said to me that in reality thee is no such specific halachah.
I just went searching the web and I found a piece on this subject which is based upon Baba Batra 22b and S.A. Hoshen Mishpat 155:39.


Sorry, But I just don't get it.
Why the over concern for a person that is "cold"?
What about someone like me who is usually hot and I have a difficult time breathing when the room is not cool?

What about if we have a minyan on a day like today that is very humid and
warm outside so we have the air-conditioner set on 68-70 degrees F as we do
all summer.
Everyone is wearing light comfortable clothing and even short sleeves and
one person is cold, he is wearing a sweater and a jacket. He wants the air
conditioner off and for?us all to choke on the stagnant hot air just for
his warmth.
Why is that right or fair?
What about ahare rabim lehatot?
Or al tifrosh min hatzibbur?
Can't these sayings be employed here?

Please explain,
Thank you,
Joseph Mosseri
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On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 6:59 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> So can someone please explain to me the whole pills-on-YK
> thing? (Hopefully I'm more alert than during the "Yihyu leRatzon Imrei
> Finu" thing and actually will understand the explanation.)

Have you seen the size of some of those pills.  They need water to be
swallowed.  I would think that is an issue.

On Thu, Sep 12, 2013 at 07:03:42PM -0400, Saul Guberman wrote:
: Have you seen the size of some of those pills.  They need water to be
: swallowed.  I would think that is an issue.

But if one is allowed to swallow pills on YK, I wouldn't take one of
"those pills". I'd take a regular ibuprofin, dry. For that matter,
someone who gets a cafeeine headache could just take a No-Doze (TM).

Also, the machloqes about drinking water less than melo lugmav to swallow
the pill is between mutar (RMF OC:3:91) and sprinkle something in it to
ruin the taste (RSZA according to the aforementioned SSK).

GCT!
-Micha

On 12/09/2013 6:07 PM, Chana Luntz wrote:
>   but given the
> gemora's resolution that in fact he only took the kidney from the korban
> pesach for a moment until he was given some sort of token in exchange (which
> allowed the korban pesach kidney to then be burnt on the mizbeach as
> required), it could be that he took the kidney, and then gave it back in
> exchange for some tokens that illustrated the numbers of people counted on
> that korban, and those tokens were then themselves deemed (and called)
> "kidneys" - and it is to those that the shishim ribui zugei kilos refers.
> That would cut the numbers in the Azarah to at least a tenth of RMB's
> calculation - which would still make for serious numbers,  but presumably
> not enough to make Rava's position bizarre.

So what does "and there is no Pesach that does not have at least ten people
signed up for it" mean?  If he was counting people rather than korbanos, how
is the minimum subscription per korban relevant?  Is the gemara trying to tell
us how many korbanos those 1.2M tokens represented, and minimising the number
by saying that if there were 1.2M tokens there could have been *no more* than
120K?!  That doesn't seem consistent with the immediately preceding line,
"beside those who were tamei or far away", which serves to *increase* the
population.


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 12/09/2013 5:53 PM, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher! wrote:
> - I was responding to an earlier posting that somehow glorified the
> reading of this prayer (and one would imagine other religious
> activities) even in circumstances where doing this would endanger the
> life of the reader.

And yet the Sefer Haminhagim, which is certainly a sefer of authentic Jewish
tradition, does exactly that.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

R' YL, quoting R' AZ:

From the Aruch Hashulchan (OC 583:4) it seems that tashlich was far from a
universal custom; furthermore, the Aruch Hashulchan has an ancillary problem
with the custom. He advises women not go to tashlich so as not to create a
mixed scene. If they do go, he suggests the men should stay home.18
Evidently, the custom was not very important to him.19
-----------------------------------------



His conclusion, "Evidently, the custom was not very important to him," does
not follow from what the Aruch Hashulchan says or what R' AZ quotes. What R'
AZ quotes is only a proof that the Aruch Hashulchan was more concerned about
hergel aveirah then tashlich. Looking inside in the Aruch Hashulchan, one
sees that he also mentions that some have objections to the minhag, and he
uses that as a reason to be meikil from fulfilling it if it might lead to
hergel aveirah. It is not, however, apparent at all that the custom was not
very important to him.

 

Midei Dabri Bo, I just heard a great story (from the baal ha'uvdah) about R'
Nosson Tzvi Finkel. A talmid (who related the story to me) was accompanying
him to tashlich. R' NTzF was unwell and weak and they got to (IIRC) Batei
Ungarin he stopped and started saying tashlich. The talmid didn't start and
when R' NTzF saw he motioned that he should start. The talmid said, But
Rebbe, where's the water? So R' NTzF pointed to a yellow cap in the ground
and said that there was a mesorah that the Mei Shiloach ran under there. So
the Talmid said, but Rebbe, there's no water there now?! So R' NTzF said,
You think too much like an American! You think Tashlich is about the water?
It's about Davening!

(Hope I got all the details correct; the gist of it is how I heard it,
though.)

 

KT,

MYG

 

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