Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 136

Thu, 25 Jul 2013

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Eitan Levy" <eitanhal...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 20:03:39 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Grape juice


Professor Levine wrote:
?We drink all of the non-mevushal wine we use at the sedarim,  so there is
no concern our non-Jewish cleaning lady might have access to the
non-mevushal wine.  However,  this is not the case during the rest of the
year. 

It seems to me that it is preferable to use mevushal wine the rest of the
year and not have to chance the gentile cleaning lady coming in contact
with our wine.	If she did then I would have to throw the wine away. 
Hence, by using mevushal wine I feel that I am avoiding the possibility of
Baal Tashchis.?



I do not understand this concern with the cleaning lady. If we are leaving
non-Jews alone, unsupervised, in our homes, doesn?t this create a problem
with all our keilim in terms of kashrut? If we?re there ?supervising? then
why would we be concerned about her helping herself to the open bottle in
the fridge? And does moving a closed (but not sealed) bottle over a couple
of inches to wipe the shelf even create a problem in terms of ?stam
yaynam?? Doesn?t she have to open and/or pour it to be problematic?
-Eitan Levy
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Message: 2
From: martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 11:24:35 -0700
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What does mevushal mean?


> "Note the statements "The technique does not noticeably harm the wine. In
> fact, flash-pasteurization is used at a number of very well known
> non-kosher wineries, where it is thought to improve certain aromatics."
>
> YL"
>

Not sure what you are trying to prove or disprove, but here are Daniel
Rogov's (OBM) comments on fine mevushal wines. I really don't mean to be
disrespectful but the Kedem wine that you drink is extremely low on the
totem pole of quality.


A large part of the impact of flash Pasteurization depends on precisely how
the process is carried out. Among the major possibilities:

a. Flash pasteurization of the must (before fermentation has begun) in tanks
b. Flash pasteurization of the must as it passes through heated pipes
c. Pasteurization of the wine in stainless steel tanks

Under system "a", I have found that after the wine is bottled major
differences will be felt largely because of the different kinds of yeasts
and quantities of sulfites that are required. Such differences are barely,
if at all, noticeable until the wine has been in the bottle for about one
year and at that time a marked decrease is noted in both aroma and level of
fruitiness.

Under system "b", which is used not only in making kosher mevushal wines
but by quite a few French producers (especially in Burgundy and the Rhone
Valley), not only is there no harm but when done correctly (requiring
state-of-the-art technology) it can actually enhance the nose and flavors
of the wine. Alas, this system is rarelly used in making kosher mevushal
wines first because many rabbinical authorities will not accept it (being
honest, it is not a true Pasteurization but a symbollic one)and second
because it can be quite expensive.

Under system "c", the most commonly used in making mevushal kosher wines,
the effects are almost always negative. Agreed that it takes a very well
honed palate to distinguish the differences a few months after bottling
(waiting until after bottle-shock for first tastings) and sometimes even
the finest palate will not discern the differences. Given six months after
bottling, however, the impact becomes clear, the mevushal wines showing
distinct harm to the flavor potential and some harm to the nose. In worst
case scenarios, after six months, the mevushal wines begin to show distinct
notes of being "cooked" - e.g. what were once fresh fruits taking on a
fruit compote nature. From 14-16 months, wines that have been flash
Pasteurized in this manner show distinct cooked aromas and flavors, often
taking on a rather unique form of cooked flavors that at their worst remind
one of the aroma of skunk perfume.

As I have said on earlier posts, there are only a few (very few) wineries
that succeed in producing truly high quality kosher mevushal wines that are
capable of aging. More than that, some of those wineries succeed "on the
grand scale". Those winemakers do not often discuss the specific details of
their methodology. I can appreciate that because it does eliminate the
"heat of combat" that sometimes rises in discussions about just who said
that just what is the "right" way to do it.

It should also be noted that some winemakers who produce kosher mevushal
wines even by the most traditional methods disagree with my perspective.

Best
Rogov



-- 
Martin Brody
310 474 1856
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Message: 3
From: "Kenneth Miller" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 18:18:14 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Grape juice


Prof. Levine wrote:
> It seems to me that it is preferable to use mevushal wine
> the rest of the year and not have to chance the gentile
> cleaning lady coming in contact with our wine.  If she did
> then I would have to throw the wine away.  Hence, by using
> mevushal wine I feel that I am avoiding the possibility of
> Baal Tashchis.

There's another option you might want to consider: Seal the open bottle in
such a way that there's no longer any danger - even if she does pick up the
bottle, its kashrus will be unchanged. I concede that one might forget to
seal it before cleaning day, but it *is* an idea to consider.

Akiva Miller

You can't always get what you want
but ... you get what you need!
____________________________________________________________
30-second trick for a flat belly
This daily 30-second trick BOOSTS your body&#39;s #1 fat-burning hormone
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/51f01ab5a58531ab541cbst03vuc



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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 14:22:43 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Grape juice


On 24/07/2013 1:03 PM, Eitan Levy wrote:
> does moving a closed (but not sealed) bottle over a couple of inches to
> wipe the shelf even create a problem in terms of ?stam yaynam??

Yes.  If the wine sloshes inside the bottle it becomes assur.  Only if it
remains perfectly still while she's moving it can it remain permitted.

> Doesn?t she have to open and/or pour it to be problematic?

No.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 5
From: Chesky Salomon <chesky.salo...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 15:31:26 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Geocentrism


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 12:48 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> IOW, geocentrism is just as true in principle, but a way of looking at
> reality that makes computing anything much harder.

Another way of making this point is at <http://xkcd.com/123/>.

A similar "frum" view of heliocentrism is as old as the theory.  The
publisher of Copernicus's book added a disclaimer, saying, "they are
not put forward to convince anyone that they are true, but merely to
provide a reliable basis for computation."

See <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/De_revolutionibus_orbium_coelestium>

--Chesky



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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:03:26 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Geocentrism


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 03:31:26PM -0400, Chesky Salomon wrote:
: A similar "frum" view of heliocentrism is as old as the theory.  The
: publisher of Copernicus's book added a disclaimer, saying, "they are
: not put forward to convince anyone that they are true, but merely to
: provide a reliable basis for computation."

But the error I was trying to disabuse people of was that RMMS didn't
deny heliocentrism. He was defending Chazal's saying that the sun, moon,
planets and stars go around the earth. It wasn't an error.

I don't believe Chazal knew more astronomy than their contemporaries
did. But I also don't believe in misconstruing RMMS in a way that causes
people to underestimate his subtlety of thought.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Strength does not come from winning. Your
mi...@aishdas.org        struggles develop your strength When you go
http://www.aishdas.org   through hardship and decide not to surrender,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      that is strength.        - Arnold Schwarzenegger



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Message: 7
From: Eliyahu Grossman <Eliy...@KosherJudaism.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 22:48:40 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Geocentrism


--Micha said:
: And since we are posting links here, here is one that might be
enlightening:
:
http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2010/09/13/geocentrism-was
-galileo-w
rong/

>>Who doesn't discuss relativity, and argues against the position that
geocentrism is the sole accurate description, not that one can describe the
exact same universe using two different languages.
>>WRT RMMS's claim, it's a strawman.
>>What recommends heliocentrism (plus the sun's, galaxy's, etc... motions)
is the elegence of the model and its ability to more easily get more correct
answers. Not right vs wrong.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha
------------------------



The reason I selected the link that I did was because one does not don't
need to misuse relativism at all in order to see the flaw in geocentrism.
Simple math does it, but many discount that, so let's use facts.

There is this simple thing called a telescope, and that was the focus of
that link I sent.  It turns the "straw man", that is "the theory of
relativity", on its head with facts. But we also have telescopes in space,
and ships in space leaving our solar system that have returned interesting
data. 
 
So here is the simple explanation, and it is not a cut-and-paste.
-------------------------------



Earth
Moon
Mercury
Venus
Sun
Mars
Jupiter
Saturn
Etc...

If you were not aware of it, one of our telescopes, NASA's Casinni Satellite
was sent towards the sun. Its purpose was to slingshot back past the Earth
as it head towards Saturn, using the gravitation of other objects to do
this, with the sun always behind.

It has been heading away from the sun on a slight curve for several years.
The sun keeps retreating. The sun has never gotten closer as it's
instruments measures visual and other forms of light. (NASA would be really
interested to know that the sun bobs and weaves).

Last year, while it was near Jupiter, it took a shot of Venus passing before
the sun, a sun that Cassini had left behind. That doesn't play out well for
the Geocentric view where Venus is always between the earth and the sun (see
list above). Look up the speeds of Venus to see the problem.

A few days ago Cassini's cameras looked back at us from Saturn and took a
photo of our pale blue dot (Earth).

Now, according to the Geocentrist view, the sun takes 365 days to go around
the earth, and Saturn, that slow gas ball, takes 10,832 days to go around
the Earth. Or, from a Geocentric view, during the 2 years from Jupiter to
Saturn, the sun was 96-million miles closer and then 96-million miles
further from Jupiter and Saturn, doing this 29 times! Hence my "bob and
weave" mention.

Saturn was chosen because of its specific distance from the sun WHICH DOES
NOT CHANGE in order to measure solar affects upon the rings. In a geocentric
view, this is impossible. NASA would have noticed.

--------------------------------



The sun is HUGE in comparison to the Earth, about 109x as big. This means
that from the Geocentrist view, Mars is not really about 34 million miles
from the earth as the NASA scientists plan. Since Mars needs to be further
from the sun than the Earth is (Mars is cooler), but since the sun is in
between the Earth and Mars, Mars is, in reality ONE HUNDRED AND THIRTY
MILLION MILES AWAY based on the Geocentric view, which means that the rover
would not have taken about a year to get there, but MORE THAN FOUR YEARS. 

But it didn't. And the Cassini would still be nowhere near Saturn, but it
is.

Yes, before there were telescopes and spaceships, one might have had a valid
discussion concerning relativism in a solar cosmology. But that was hundreds
of years ago

But there will always be holdouts: http://theflatearthsociety.org

Eliyahu Grossman





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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:23:48 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Geocentrism


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 10:48:40PM +0300, Eliyahu Grossman wrote:
: Now, according to the Geocentrist view, the sun takes 365 days to go around
: the earth, and Saturn, that slow gas ball, takes 10,832 days to go around
: the Earth....

The sun rises daily, not annually. Each were thought to revolve around
the earth roughly daily: the sun was actually daily, the moon was roughly
daily, plus a one month epicycle. I don't know details, but Saturn also
had epicycles.

The Pythagorians believed the earth spin, but then, a number of them
were heliocentrists! So we're not talking about them.

The epicycles are actually a Fourier approximation of their actual orbits
as seen from earth. But that's not geocentrism, that's specifically
Aristotle or Ptolmy. And AFAIK, Chazal doesn't mention them one way or
the other. And your whole notion about which particular geocentric
map they subscribed to is not RMMS's topic -- Chazal don't say anything
about what form of geocentrism they switched to in Rebbe's day.

My point is, geocentrism replaces the earth's spin with an orbit around
the earth. Their heliocentric orbits are approximated by epicycles,
not replaced by orbits around the earth.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 9
From: "Joel C. Salomon" <joelcsalo...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:24:03 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Geocentrism


On Wed, Jul 24, 2013 at 3:48 PM, Eliyahu Grossman
<Eliy...@kosherjudaism.com> wrote:
> "more correct" is not really a valid term here.
>
> The reason I selected the link that I did was because one does not don't
> need to misuse relativism at all in order to see the flaw in geocentrism.
> Simple math does it, but many discount that, so let's use facts.

It is possible to mathematically-construct a force law, centered on
Earth and rotating around it, extending throughout the universe.
Everything in the universe is subject to this force -- along with the
familiar gravitational, electromagnetic, and nuclear weak & strong
forces.  Every physical law we know of (yes, including the speed of
light) will still apply. The odd thing about this force law is that
earth is constrained to remain motionless and rotationless at the
universe's center.

A fundamental result of General Relativity is that there is no
conceivable way to determine whether this (very contrived) force
exists.  Even things like the Foucault Penulum and other indications
of the Earth's rotation would be explained by this force law.

At this point, it's not "wrong" to assert that this force actually
exists; or that (as Chazal believed) the universe revolves around the
Earth. It's just not a very productive way to calculate anything.

--Chesky



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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:11:44 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Geocentrism


On 24/07/2013 4:03 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> But the error I was trying to disabuse people of was that RMMS didn't
> deny heliocentrism. He was defending Chazal's saying that the sun, moon,
> planets and stars go around the earth. It wasn't an error.
>
> I don't believe Chazal knew more astronomy than their contemporaries
> did. But I also don't believe in misconstruing RMMS in a way that causes
> people to underestimate his subtlety of thought.

He was actually championing the Rambam's Ptolemaic view, not Chazal's.



-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 16:06:26 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Grape juice


On 24/07/2013 3:49 PM, Gershon Dubin wrote:
> From: Zev Sero z...@sero.name <mailto:z...@sero.name>
>
> On 24/07/2013 1:03 PM, Eitan Levy wrote:
>  > does moving a closed (but not sealed) bottle over a couple of inches to
>  > wipe the shelf even create a problem in terms of ?stam yaynam??
>
> Yes.  If the wine sloshes inside the bottle it becomes assur.  Only if it
> remains perfectly still while she's moving it can it remain permitted.
>
> NO.  See Yoreh Deah 125:9;  124:25 and Shach 74 there, Chochmas Odom Klal 76:10 etc.

I stand corrected.  That'll teach me to answer from memory instead of
looking it up.  But if so, what's the purpose of a double seal?  Is that
only necessary when the wine is in a nochri's possession, to prevent
substitution?  If so, why is one seal not enough, as it is for meat, fish,
etc?

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 12
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 19:49:55 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Grape juice


On 24/07/2013 1:03 PM, Eitan Levy wrote:
>> does moving a closed (but not sealed) bottle over a couple of inches to
>> wipe the shelf even create a problem in terms of "stam yaynam?"

From: Zev Sero z...@sero.name
> Yes. If the wine sloshes inside the bottle it becomes assur. Only if
> it remains perfectly still while she's moving it can it remain permitted.

NO. See Yoreh Deah 125:9; 124:25 and Shach 74 there, Chochmas Odom
Klal 76:10 etc.

>> Doesn't she have to open and/or pour it to be problematic?

No. It has to be open whether the Akum shakes it or moves it.



From: "Kenneth Miller" kennethgmil...@juno.com
> There's another option you might want to consider: Seal the open bottle
> in such a way that there's no longer any danger - even if she does pick
> up the bottle, its kashrus will be unchanged. I concede that one might
> forget to seal it before cleaning day, but it *is* an idea to consider.

It only has to be closed, not sealed.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com



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Message: 13
From: Joseph Faith <josephfa...@hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 20:39:31 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Grape Juice


As a long time observer, I couldn't help but notice that the much
of the recent discussion on the issue of mevushal wine reflects a
misconception that has unfortunately made it into some of the recent
halachic literature. Non-kosher wine is actually very rarely pasteurized,
and as such, the question of whether pasteurising wine would not suffice
to render it mevushal due to it being 'shchiach' is moot. There are
indeed valid reasons to not consider pasteurized wine mevushal but this
is not one of them.

To quote R. Yisroel Langer's discussion of the issue in the Chicago
Community Kollel parsha sheet:

"HaGaon R' Yoseph Shalom Elyashiv shlita (Koveitz Teshuvos siman 75)
offers another reason to prevent our "mevushal" wines from contact with a
non-Jew. R' Elyashiv reasons that the heter of yayin mevushal is based on
the premise that it is unusual to cook wine. Today, when it is standard
practice to pasteurize wine, it cannot be considered an abnormal act and
the heter of yayin mevushal would not apply. Some question the information
presented to R' Elyashiv, claiming that non-kosher wine companies do
not pasteurize their wines (the alcohol content kills the bacteria)."

See also R. Chaim Jachter's article "Yayin Mevushal and Non-Observant
Seder Guests", in which he makes a similar point:

"Most importantly, Rav Eliashiv specifically writes that his ruling
applies only if the information provided to him was accurate. Rav Shmuel
David (Techumin 14:421) notes that Rav Eliashiv's ruling needs to be
revisited, since many wineries outside of Israel do not pasteurize
their wines."

Joseph Faith




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Message: 14
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 24 Jul 2013 17:05:22 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Grape juice


At 02:03 PM 7/24/2013, R. Micha wrote:
> In terms of the purpose of the seder, recall that using non-mevushal
> wine means either not inviting non-observant Jews to join and learn about
> Yetzias Mitzrayim, or on a kulah WRT stam yeinam of a tinoq shenishba.

There is another option, namely, to have only those who are observant
pour the wine. At our seder no one pours his/her own wine. Usually
my older grandchildren do the pouring. This can be mentioned at the
beginning of the seder and the non-observant Jews will simply accept it.

YL



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Message: 15
From: Eliyahu Grossman <Eliy...@KosherJudaism.com>
Date: Thu, 25 Jul 2013 13:17:46 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Geocentrism


I realized that my last posting was probably difficult to visualize due to
the text-only format of this list. I also recognize that I made a mistake in
the math that (using an incorrect delta, but to the favor of the
geocentrist).

 

The short of it is that in a Heliocentric model, Mars is correctly *34
MILLION MILES* away, and so it took the space rover less than a year to get
there. That is a fact.

 

In the Geocentric model, Mars is *226 MILLION MILES* away, which would mean
a travel time of about 6 years. That is a variance of nearly 1000%. That is
a fiction.

 

So it isn't that Heliocentric is "more right". The geocentric model is flat
out wrong with no foundation in reality.

 

Rather than proceed with the long posting, I provided the drawings and the
math at:

 

http://eweirdness.blogspot.co.il/2013/07/the-rebbe-was-wrong-really.html

 

Eliyahu Grossman

 

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