Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 124

Wed, 10 Jul 2013

• 1. Re: Kabdehu v'Chashdehu (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: Kabdehu v'Chashdehu (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Knobbelach (T6...@aol.com)
• 4. Re: announcing plan for first head transplant in man (noam stadlan)
• 5. Ahavat Chinam (cantorwolb...@cox.net)
• 6. minhagei EY vs chul (David Cohen)
• 7. Re: Knobbelach (Kenneth Miller)
• 8. Re: announcing plan for first head transplant in man (Rich, Joel)
• 9. what's the hetter? (saul newman)
• 10. Re: what's the hetter? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Knobbelach (Zev Sero)
• 12. Re: what's the hetter? (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: kesiva and tzovea (Micha Berger)
• 14. cc 'plagiarism, New Square and maskilim etc (saul newman)

On Fri, Jul 05, 2013 at 06:35:40PM +0000, Henry Topas wrote:
: The expression Kabdehu v'Chashdehu is used often in Israeli politics.
: I have been looking for the makor of this phrase and all I have found is
: the notion that it is learned out from an incident recorded in Masechet
: Derech Eretz Rabbah (4) about Rabbi Yehoshua (Ben Levi).
: 
: Is there another source or a more recent source which would actually
: show the phrase as indicated rather than the need to use a drush?

The Bar Ilan web site turned up Ency Talmudit vol 6, "derekh eretz",
fn 523. The paragraph of the main text begins "People should always
be thought like listim before you, and honor them like Raban Gamliel. And
a maaseh with R' Yehoshua" (here R' Yehoshua honors his guest, but
then takes away the ladder from the room in which the guest was sleeping
to prevent theft. And in fact, the guest found out about the lack of
ladder the hard way, while trying to sneak down to rob his host. The
footnote cites
    Derekh Eretz Rabbah pereq *5* (emphasis mine)
    Kalah Rabasi pereq 9
    And c.f. Rashi Taanis 23b d"h "delo bediqaso".

The he.wikisource.org edition of the Rashi
https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%AA%D7%A2%D7%A0%D7%99%D7%AA
_%D7%9B%D7%92_%D7%91
also says it's pereq 5. I gave up before finding it in DER, assuming
that you already had that source and simply either typoed or had a
non-standard pereq division.

But while the footnote uses the idiom, Kalah Rabasi and Rashi discuss
the idea, not the wording. Judging from Rashi, the idiom in his day
was from DER: "kol adam yehei be'einekha kelistim" (without "chashuvim",
as per the ET text).

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I just wrote:
: But while the footnote uses the idiom, Kalah Rabasi and Rashi discuss
: the idea, not the wording. Judging from Rashi, the idiom in his day
: was from DER: "kol adam yehei be'einekha kelistim" (without "chashuvim",
: as per the ET text).

The other hits for khabdeihu vechashdeihu are
    Divrei Malkiel 4:136
    IM CM 1:47
    Mishneh Halakhos 9:363, 17:183

The earliest of the three was the Divrei Malkiel, the Lomza Rav, R/
Malkiel Tenenbaum (1847-1910).

For that matter, those and the Encyc Talmudit are the only hits for "*kbd*
*chshd* (using "*" to get all prefixes and suffixes) as adjacent patterns.
So I THINK I got them all.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

 
From: martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com>
To:  z...@sero.name,     "

>> checking the wheat,  which refers to some sort of fungal growth 
as"knobblach",
i.e. "garlics",  presumably because its shape is somehow reminiscent of
garlic.  If one  has to remove "knobblach" from the wheat to make matzah, 
then it
makes   sense that this would develop into a minhag not to eat actual 
knobble.<<  [--RZS]





Sorry, but no, it doesn't make any sense.

Martin  Brody
 
 
>>>>>
 
 
This exchange is a fascinating example of how fluid and slippery language  
can be -- even the very words "makes sense" don't necessarily make sense!
 
When RZS wrote that the minhag some people have not to eat garlic on Pesach 
 "makes sense," he meant that it made linguistic and psychological sense -- 
how  such a folkloric tradition could have arisen.  People heard "You have 
to  remove the knobelach before you use the wheat" and they automatically 
thought of  the more common meaning of the word "knobel" -- garlic -- rather 
than the less  common meaning -- "some kind of white fungus knob." Ignorant 
of the scientific  facts and perhaps of halacha as well, the common folk 
undertook to avoid  anything called "knobel" on Pesach.  We don't really know 
how the no-garlic  custom arose, but this is at least a plausible scenario.
 
But when RMB reads what RZS wrote -- "It makes sense" -- he thinks, what  
are you talking about?!  It makes no sense at all!  Fungus is nothing  like 
garlic!  He thinks that RZS really believes that it /makes sense/ --  
scientifically and halachically -- to conflate garlic with fungus, and he heads  to 
his keyboard to tell the world that no, it does /not/ make sense.  He  
thinks RZS is /justifying/ the no-garlic custom rather than /explaining/ its  
origin.  
 
If the very words "it makes sense" can be understood so differently by  
different people, it's a wonder that we can communicate at all with  this 
limited tool we have -- language!  One wonders how many halachic  and hashkafic 
disputes have arisen because different speakers had different  understandings 
of the very words they were using.
 

--Toby Katz
=============


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I actually discussed this in an article in 2010 available here:
http://www.yctorah.org/content/view/662/10
For those who are interested, the references contain the cites for the
following info:

1. Dr. Robert White performed head transplants in monkeys in the 1970's.
2. Rabbi Azriel Rosenfeld discussed the halachic implications of potential
head transplants in the 60's and 70's

I would note that the ability to perform these transplants is further
evidence that defining life by neurological function makes the most
practical and halachic sense.  Those who define life as 'vital motion' have
no way of dealing with these issues(aside from the obvious but poorly noted
problem that while they claim that it is no synonomous with circulation,
they have never actually identified exactly what 'vital motion' is or how
to measure or define it independent of the presence of circulation.
similarly they have never defined exactly what tissue has to be involved in
the 'vital motion' in order to qualify as a human being).

one halachic issue that does require discussion is the Mishna in Ohalot
which defines a decapitated animal as dead even if the body is still
moving(pirkus).  The rational approach is that the mishna had in mind the
technology of the day, which assumes that a head without a body would cease
to function very quickly(unconsciousness within 10 sec).  this case does
not refer to the situation where the head(and brain) are supported.

For those who are interested, Rabbi Bleich does claim(interview in Jewish
Review I think) that if the head of Reuven was transferred to the body of
Shimon, the result would be identified as Shimon, but there would be some
sort of dibbuk like part attached to him.  However, he clearly holds that
the result would NOT be Reuven.

Noam Stadlan
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In fact, even in instances in which it is permitted to hate another, there
may be a level of love that must always remain?

This reminds me of parents who will tell a child: I don't like you right now
but I always LOVE you.
Having seen so many dysfunctional families (due to my work), I can say 
that there is unfortunately so much more sinat chinam than ahavat chinam 
in society today. I dare say that this sadly also applies to unzere.
ri
Years wrinkle the face, but to lose hope wrinkles the soul.  

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R' Eli Turkel mentioned 3 practices that are common in chu"l but not in
Eretz Yisrael:
1.  Davening both mincha and maariv between pelag and sheki'ah on Fridays
2.  Davening maariv, during the week, right after shekiah
3.  Waiting until 3 small stars are visible before ending the minor fasts

My comments on these 3 items:

1.  There are acharonim (albeit not the Mishna Berura) who allow this
lechatchila, and hold that the special heter to daven maariv early on leil
Shabbos has nothing to do with siding with R' Yehuda regarding the latest
time for mincha.  That being said, I assume the practical reason that
diaspora communities are more likely to rely on these opinions is that in
chu"l, unlike in EY, most people are working on Friday afternoons, and
while they would like to make Shabbos early, they don't have the luxury of
coming home on time to be all ready for Shabbos and in shul for mincha
before pelag.  Keep in mind that in Teaneck (latitude 41 degrees N), and
even more so in Vienna (48 degrees N), the amount of time between pelag
(according to the Levush, Gra, etc.) and sheki'a in the spring/summer is
greater than it is in EY.

As an aside, "early Shabbos" in general is far less popular in EY than it
is in the northern U.S. and Europe.  I have no solid statistics, but my
theory is that is largely an Anglo import, and exists primarily in
Anglo-heavy neighborhoods.  (Even in my relatively Anglo-heavy
neighborhood, the early minyan is far less crowded than the "regular time"
minyan, whereas I recall the opposite being the case in the U.S.)  As to
why it didn't catch on in EY to the same extent, this is probably partially
because even at its latest (the last few weeks), Shabbos never gets as late
(on our clocks) in EY as it does at more northern latitudes.  Also, trends
(and minhagim) are built up over decades, and with the exception of 2.5
years, there was no Daylight Saving Time in Israel from 1958 through 1983.
 Going back further, when the Yishuv haYashan used the "sha'on Eretz
Yisrael" ("Arab clock") that reset itself every day at sunset, Shabbos was
perceived as starting at the same time throughout the year!  After decades
of nobody having any *need* to daven maariv early on leil Shabbos, it is no
surprise that many communities and poskim felt that was not the minhag
hamakom in EY to do so, even once Daylight Saving Time was reinstituted.


2 & 3.   In general, the gemara's shiur of 3/4 mil for bein hashemashos is
not on the radar screen as something relevant for practical use in the more
northern latitudes.  This is probably because the difference between this
amount of time (13.5 or 17 minutes after sunset) and when you can actually
see stars is more pronounced, so it's just not used.  (Presumably, the
assumption -- whether correct or not -- is that this shiur was *not* meant
to be adjusted for latitude and season by being understood as whenever the
sun is 5.3 degrees below the horizon.)  So the "Shabbos ending" time is
taken to be tzeis hakochavim for all purposes.  On the one hand, this can
lead to leniencies -- since it's not practical for people to wait around in
shul for 45 minutes between mincha and maariv (as opposed to 20 minutes,
which is doable), they might as well daven right away at sheki'ah.  It can
also lead to stringencies, as in the case of the time a fast is over.

-- D.C.
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R' Zev Sero wrote:

> On Pesach people avoid any association with chametz. People
> even avoid saying "bread" on Pesach, substituting "chometz"
> instead.

I've never heard this before. Which groups are these?

> And I understand that there are many Sefardim who don't eat
> chickpeas on Pesach because "chummus" sounds too much like
> "chametz".  So it makes sense that if garlic's name is
> associated in people's minds with chometz, they would avoid
> it.

Does this mean that there are some who don't eat sweetbreads on Pesach?

Akiva Miller
____________________________________________________________
30-second trick for a flat belly
This daily 30-second trick BOOSTS your body's #1 fat-burning hormone
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/51dc4038af32840384b20st04vuc

I actually discussed this in an article in 2010 available here:  http://www.yctorah.org/co
ntent/view/662/10
For those who are interested, the references contain the cites for the following info:

1. Dr. Robert White performed head transplants in monkeys in the 1970's.
2. Rabbi Azriel Rosenfeld discussed the halachic implications of potential head transplants in the 60's and 70's

I would note that the ability to perform these transplants is further
evidence that defining life by neurological function makes the most
practical and halachic sense.

Noam Stadlan
===============================================
R' Noam,
And what will we do when it will be possible to transplant half a brain
etc.? Will we wait to see who has more of the personality of reuvain or
shimon?  Ahhh-if only we could invent a soul detector!
She-nir'eh et nehamat Yerushalayim u-binyanah bi-mherah ve-yamenu,
Joel Rich
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http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51357&;pgnum=214
for *any* secular education?

On Tue, Jul 09, 2013 at 09:55:18AM -0700, saul newman wrote:
: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51357&;pgnum=214
: for *any* secular education?

I'm thrown why you would assume that more of us follow a Ram in Qol
Torah (Y-m ih"q) over the Rama. This is simply one rav sounding his
volley in the dispute between Torah-only and TIDE.

And the page you point to ignores all the examples of gedolim who weren't
circumstcribed by ghettoization from learning limudei chol, blaming the
entire thing on the Haskalah. And he's trying to prove the lack of need
for limudei chol from the *Rambam* of all people?

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On 9/07/2013 12:53 PM, Kenneth Miller wrote:
> R' Zev Sero wrote:
>
>> >On Pesach people avoid any association with chametz. People
>> >even avoid saying "bread" on Pesach, substituting "chometz"
>> >instead.
> I've never heard this before. Which groups are these?

I'm not sure that it's confined to any specific "group".  I think it was
common in Litta, both among chassidim and misnagdim.

My great-great-grandmother once took a dress to the tailor on chol hamoed
Pesach to be altered, and told him "es iz tzu shmol" (it's too narrow).
The tailor took one look and exclaimed "shmol?! es is doch..." (narrow?!
but it's...), but before he could get out the word "breit" (wide) my g-g-m
said "sshh, chometz!"    Now that, I think, was an extreme to which most
people wouldn't go; even if they didn't say "breit" meaning "bread", they
wouldn't think to avoid the same word in its meaning of "broad".


>> >And I understand that there are many Sefardim who don't eat
>> >chickpeas on Pesach because "chummus" sounds too much like
>> >"chametz".  So it makes sense that if garlic's name is
>> >associated in people's minds with chometz, they would avoid
>> >it.

> Does this mean that there are some who don't eat sweetbreads on Pesach?

I think that association only exists in English, and there are few people
whose minhagim developed in an English-speaking ocuntry.  But it's possible,
and it would be an interesting minhag to deliberately adopt.

Also bear in mind that a lot of people never eat sweetbreads at all, even
during the year, because they don't like them.

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On 9/07/2013 6:39 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 09, 2013 at 09:55:18AM -0700, saul newman wrote:
> : http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=51357&;pgnum=214
> : for *any* secular education?

> I'm thrown why you would assume that more of us follow a Ram in Qol
> Torah (Y-m ih"q) over the Rama.

Which Rama contradicts what he writes?

> This is simply one rav sounding his
> volley in the dispute between Torah-only and TIDE.
> And the page you point to ignores all the examples of gedolim who weren't
> circumstcribed by ghettoization from learning limudei chol, blaming the
> entire thing on the Haskalah.

Examples?   What pre-haskalah gadol approved teaching limudei chol to
tinokos shel beis rabbon, or even to post-bar-mitzvah boys before they
need to start thinking about making a living?


> And he's trying to prove the lack of need
> for limudei chol from the *Rambam* of all people?

Yes, why not?  The Rambam is pretty clear that even an adult should not
learn limudei chol until after he has mastered Torah, and there's certainly
no support in the Rambam for taking tinokos shel beis rabbon away from Torah
to teach them other things.


-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan

On Thu, Jul 04, 2013 at 02:44:17PM +0100, Chana Luntz replied to my post:
:> Ink can crack or peel off parchment. It more rests above the skin than
:> penetrate within it. Would medium be considered tzoveia in any case?
: 
: Well if you consider that not to be permanent, then you don't have the
: melacha of kesiva either...

I wasn't talking about impermanence. If ink on parchment were temporary,
we would have no sta"m!

AIUI, the most common ways of writing in ancient Israel were:
1- Writing with ink / dye on pottery -- in which the ink is absorbed into
   the writing surface, and we can therefore entertain our question about
   tzoveia.
2- Etching into clay, where there is definitely no question of tzoveia.
And last
3- Ink on parchment. But the ink sits ON the parchment, AIUI. We aren't
   dying the parchment, we are sticking a colored (black) layer on top
   of it. Veharaayah, you can take a blade and scrape it off, and years
   of aging and enviromental changes can cause the ink to peel off on
   its own.

So I asked about case 3 -- the most usual way of writing text by Jewish
contemporaries of Tanakh. Does the process even allow for the question
of tzoveia?

In the mishkan, kesivah was marking letters on gold plate. Either they
were etched (like my #2) or the ink was stuck onto (but outside) the
gold (like #3). AFAIK, there is no way to dye gold.

-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Zion will be redeemed through justice,
mi...@aishdas.org        and her returnees, through righteousness.
http://www.aishdas.org
Fax: (270) 514-1507

http://seforim.blogspot.com/2013/07/plagiarism-halakhic-paradox
-and-malbim.html
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