Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 48

Thu, 21 Mar 2013

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 20:05:53 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] KLP Lecithin in chocolate and corn syrup


On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 09:39:20AM +1100, Rabbi Meir G. Rabi, its Kosher! wrote:
: In response to the suggestion that there is no Bittul when a Goy adds non
: Kosher DELIBERATELY or according to a RECIPE, and accordingly chocolate
: with lecithin and drinks sweetened with tiny amounts Kitniyos are Assur
: during Pesach for Ashkenazim, I should like to present the following
: information.

: The MaHARaM of Lublin, Teshuvah 104, Paskens that it is Muttar. Reb Moshe
: YD 2:41 Paskens accordingly.

Even in the case RAM spells out (from his understanding of prior iterations)?

On Sun, Mar 17, 2013 at 02:35:30AM +0000, R Akiva Miller wrote:
> But, our discussion said, this only applies to "approved" products,
> not to "supervised" products. Given the sort of contractual terms which
> exist between the manufacturer and the Jews in *this* paradigm, it is
> very difficult to call the addition of lecithin "after-the-fact", if
> for no other reason than the fact that the manufacturer must submit a
> list of ingredients, and the hechsher will be on the label only if the
> rabbis approve that list BEFORE-the-fact.

> Imagine that you are the machshir, and a manufacturer wants your
> Pesach symbol on his packages of chocolate, and he shows you the list
> of ingredients, which includes lecithin. What do you tell him? If you
> tell him, "This recipe is fine," is that really after-the-fact?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is capable of changing the world for the
mi...@aishdas.org        better if possible, and of changing himself for
http://www.aishdas.org   the better if necessary.
Fax: (270) 514-1507            - Victor Frankl, Man's search for Meaning



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Message: 2
From: martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 19 Mar 2013 18:50:55 -0700
Subject:
[Avodah] The 5th cup


"There is no visitor. That is a Bubba Maysa ?- perhaps designed for
children.
The source for the Kos Shel Eliyahu is the Machlokes about whether thare
are 4 or 5 Leshonos of Geula... the 5th Lashon being the word V'Heveiso.
That would call for a fifth cup of wine. (IIRC The Rambam actually drank a
5th Kos but that is not our current Minhag). We still pour a fifth Kos to
symbolize that 5th cup. It is called the Kos Shel Eliyahu because the
Machlokes will be settled by Eliyahu upon his arrival pre-Moshiach.
HM"

There's a machloket to what is the source of 4 cups(which was of course a
Greek/Roman custom anyway and the drasha came later)
Some say the 4 expressions of redemption, particularist, others the 4 times
the cups are mentioned in the Joseph story, in jail, therefore the 4 cups
of freedom, were universalist.
R.Tarfon says you drink a 5th during Hallel. Rashi says it's a mistake, and
not permitted to drink a 5th, Rambam says it's optional, Raavad says it's
mandatory. So we have a 5th on the table as a compromise.
All the 4's have a 5th, including the 4 shabbatot, the 5th being Shabbat
hagodol, and that's when the final redemption comes
Hope that helps.
Martin Brody
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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 10:17:09 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] gebrochs


I heard on the radio someone claim that one who goes to a hotel can never
keep non-gebrochs
lechatchila.
No hotel can guarantee that all their guests do not eat gebrochs.
As such some guests will put their mataza into hot soup rendering the soup
bowl bebrochs.
Though there have been stories of masgichim trying to stop this practice,
in real life nothing can be done about in any decent size hotel.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 10:23:43 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] shvus dshvus


<<>It is standard, but the standard condition is that it is impossible to
observe the mitzvah in even the most minimal way without violating the shvus
>dishvus.  That's what I'm questioning here.>>

I have heard a psak that if one is locked out of his home on shabbat he can
ask a goy
to break the door to get in (or do it in an unusual manner  + mekalkel)
 which is a shvus desshvus for the mitzva of oneg shabbat and need not go
to a neighbor to eat the shabbat meal.

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 10:47:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The 5th cup


On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 06:50:55PM -0700, martin brody wrote:
: Some say the 4 expressions of redemption, particularist, others the 4 times
: the cups are mentioned in the Joseph story, in jail, therefore the 4 cups
: of freedom, were universalist.

R Yehoshua ben Levi or R Shemuel ben Nachman (Y-mi Pesachim 10:1. 68b)
R Levi (sham) says it's the 4 cups of pur'onios that HQBH will give the
umos ha'olam to drink:
    - Kach es kos hayayin hacheimah (Yirmiyahu 55)
    - Kos zahav Bavel beYad Hashem
    - Ki kos beYad Hashem (Teillim 75)
    - Yimtar al reshaim pachim... menas kosam (Tehillim 11)
and the 4 cups of nechamos He will give BY:
    - H' menas chelqi veqosi (Tehillim 16)
    - dishanta vashemen roshi, kori revayah (Teh' 23)
    - Kos yeshu'os esa (x 2) (Teh' 112)

The 4 leshonos in Shemos 6:6-7 is said first, by R Yochanan beshaim R
Benayyah. RHM tells me that R' Matis Blum cites the Gra as tying kos
shel Eliyahu to a 5th lashon -- veheveisi (6:8).

I'm not sure where to find a 5th cup in R' Levi's position. It requires
mastery of Tanakh that I lack.

But the kosos of the sar hamashkim's dream only requires browsing one
pereq of Bereishis.

The first four (from the Y-mi, all in Ber' 40):
    - Vekhos Par'oh beyadi (v. 11, sar hamashkim describing the dream)
    - Va'eschat osam el kos Par'oh (ibid)
    - va'etein es hakos al kaf Par'oh (ibid)
    - venasata khos Par'oh beyado (v. 12, the pitaron)

None of which runs counter accepting the historical evidence that the
minhag emerged for pragmatic reasons. After all:

1- Explaining *how* a minhag came to be historically is different than
explaining *why* HQBH wove things to produce that turn of events.

2- After the practice started, would it have spread -- or if it spread
already, would it still be continuing -- if people didn't find a meaning
in it? So even if these reasons aren't the initial cause, they end up
being the cause of why we're doing it today anyway.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
mi...@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org         - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 6
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:42:53 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Kitniyot


In this video, Rabbi Bar Hayim discusses the sources related to the 
minhag of not eating kitniyot on Pesach.  He demonstrates that the 
custom, which originated in France, was an error, brings numerous 
Rishonim who say that it was an error (and in one cases called it a 
minhag shtut), and cogently that the custom is harmful and should be 
abandoned.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WGafcOKFVTQ

Lisa

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Message: 7
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:19:10 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] gebrochs


<<---------- Original Message ----------
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
I heard on the radio someone claim that one who goes to a hotel can never keep non-gebrochs
lechatchila.No hotel can guarantee that all their guests do not eat
gebrochs.As such some guests will put their mataza into hot soup rendering
the soup bowl bebrochs.>> Yes, but virtually nobody is makpid on
keilim of gebrochts.  So the bowl is fine to use for the next non-gebrochts
customer.
 
Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com
____________________________________________________________
Gaviscon&#174; Official Site
Gaviscon&#174; Relieves Heartburn Fast! See Products, Heartburn Info & More
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/5149b7a141fa37a00450st02vuc
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Message: 8
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 15:28:31 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] gebrochs


I was always told that one could use the dishes on the 8th day of Pesach
for Gebrochs since then it waited (amost) a year until being used again.
Thus, I implied that normally people who avoid Gebrochs do not use
non-gebrochs dishes (again lechatchila)
I confess that as someone who eats Gebrochs this is all by rumor for me

chag Sameach
Eli


On Wed, Mar 20, 2013 at 3:19 PM, Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>wrote:

> <<---------- Original Message ----------
> From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
> I heard on the radio someone claim that one who goes to a hotel can never
> keep non-gebrochs
> lechatchila.
> No hotel can guarantee that all their guests do not eat gebrochs.
> As such some guests will put their mataza into hot soup rendering the soup
> bowl bebrochs.>>
>
>
> Yes, but virtually nobody is makpid on keilim of gebrochts.  So the bowl
> is fine to use for the next non-gebrochts customer.
>
>
>
> Gershon
> gershon.du...@juno.com
>
>
> ____________________________________________________________
> *Gaviscon? Official Site*
> Gaviscon? Relieves Heartburn Fast! See Products, Heartburn Info & More
> <http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/5149b7a11926937a0681as
> t04vuc>
> gaviscon.com<http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3132/5149b7a11926937a0681as
> t04vuc>
>



-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 19:58:29 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Kitniyos on Erev Pesach


The following psak din was released by Rabbi Mottel Krasnjanski of Melbourne
=============================================================================


It has been brought to my attention that Rabbi Meir Rabi ruled earlier this week ?Sushi and all Kitniyos may be eaten Erev Pesach all day, just like potatoes?.

I would like to state unequivocally that it is forbidden to eat any
Kitniyos on Erev Pesach from the same time one may not eat Chomets. For
Ashkenazim Kitniyos is as stringent as Chomets. It was with great
trepidation that some of the Rabbonim relaxed some of the laws of Kitniyos
during a famine otherwise it is totally forbidden.

  First logically the prohibition of Kitniyos was enacted to prevent people
  from mistaking Kitniyos for Chomets as they are prepared the same way 
  etc. ( the three reasons quoted by the Mordechai in the second Perek of
  Mes. Pesachim). It follows therefore that whatever time the prohibition
  to consume Chomets commences so to commences the prohibition for
  Kitniyos.

  Second, the fact that the Shulchan Oruch in Siman 444 in Hilchos Pesach
  endeavours to find different options of how one is to observe the Mitsvah
  of Sholosh Seudos when Erev Pesach is on Shabbos and no Shulchan Oruch
  brings  the option of eating Kitniyos. Obviously there is no such option.

Most important the Chok Yaakov chapter 471 Seif Beis rules that it is
forbidden to eat Kitniyos then. So too paskens the Maharsham in his earlier
Sefer Daas Torah chapter 453.

  There is a lone opinion the Pri Megodin in chapter 444  Eshel Avrohom
  seif beis who rules that if Erev Pesach falls out on Shabbos one may eat
  Matsoh made of Kitniyos. At a cursory glance one may misconstrue his
  words and think that it is a carte blanche to eat Kitniyos Erev Pesach.
  However this is not the case. First of all the Pri Megodin should have
  made this rule in Chapter 471 where the discussion takes place regarding
  what foods are permissible on Erev Pesach. Further more the Marsham in
  his Tshuvos section 1 chapter 183 writes that the Pri Megodim is limiting
  his leniency only in regard to Matsoh of Kitniyos as the Pri Megodim
  himself says.

  There is an interesting debate involving Kitniyos that was treated just
  like wheat can one make Matso out of it. Do we say that Kitniyos can?t be
  stricter then wheat itself? The Chasam Sofer Orech Chaim chapter 121
  tries to be lenient during a famine to prepare matsos of kitniyos.
  However he puts in a proviso as long as it doesn?t resemble genuine
  Matsoh. The Sdei Chemed Mareches Chomets  Umatsoh Siman Vov seif Beis
  prefaces the discussion since poverty is rife amongst the Jewish people
  and then the discussion begins. He too understood the Pri Megodim was
  limiting himself to Matsoh that was prepared the same way one would
  prepare Matsoh made from wheat.

Conclusion no leading Posek says one may eat sushi and kitniyos  on Erev
pesach. Indeed Rabbi Vosner in Shevet Halevi says that one is totally
forbidden to eat Kitniyos on Erev Pesach, and says one shouldn?t consider
any leniency then. If anyone does they are breaching the fence of
Yiddishkeit.

Let us all have a Kosher and freilicher Pesach and merit the coming of Moshiach now.

Rabbi Mottel Krasnjanski

  



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Message: 10
From: Daas Books <i...@daasbooks.com>
Date: Wed, 20 Mar 2013 10:26:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Cup for the Visitor: What lies behind the


> On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 04:07:23PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
> : The source for the Kos Shel Eliyahu is the Machlokes about whether
> : thare are 4 or 5 Leshonos of Geula... the 5th Lashon being the word
> : V'Heveiso. That would call for a fifth cup of wine...

You might be interested in the GR"A's comment here: Our Haggada that
lists these 4 lashonos is based on an "error" in the midrash. He says
that what we call the 3rd lashon counts for 2, because it includes both
"strong hand" and "outstretched arm". He brings a proof from the midrash
in the Yerushalmi which says that the 4 cups are learned from the 4 times
Sefer Tehillim mentions "kos" (cup) in the context of salvation. But says
the GR"A, in Sefer Tehilim there are only 3 such pesukim (16:5, 23:5,
116:13)! But the latter of which is in the plural ("yeshuos/salvations")
and therefore counts for 2.

Chag kasher v'sameach,
Alexander Seinfeld



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Message: 11
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 08:04:20 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] gebrochs




Yes, but virtually nobody is makpid on keilim of gebrochts.  So the bowl is fine to use for the next non-gebrochts customer.
===============================
In a recent shiur R' H Schachter said if you hold gebrochts you should be makpid for keilim as well.
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 12
From: Rafael Jason Hecht <rhe...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 16:34:34 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Cup for the Visitor: What lies behind the


There is one thing that the article missed. There is a Rambam that
maintains that one should drink 5 cups. Yemenites follow this custom, as do
a number of Chasidic groups: "Kotzk, Shochachov and Izbitz."

Also, *"there is an open question in the Talmud whether we are obligated to
have four or five cups on the night of Passover. Since the issue was never
resolved, we pour a fifth cup, but do not drink it* [i.e. a "Teiku" which
requires Eliyahu's involvement]*.*
*
*
*After heralding the coming of the Messiah, one of Elijah's tasks will be
to resolve all hitherto unanswered halachic questions. Thus this fifth cup
whose status is in doubt is dubbed "Elijah's Cup," in anticipation of the
insight he will shed on the matter."*

Read more:
http://www.ou.org/jewish_action/03/2013/whats-the-tr
uth-about-eliyahu-hanavi-at-the-seder/

http://www.chabad.org/holida
ys/passover/pesach_cdo/aid/504495/jewish/Why-is-Elijah-invited-in-during-th
e-seder.htm

Best Regards,

Rafi Hecht
*rhe...@gmail.com* <rhe...@gmail.com>
416-276-6925
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On Tue, Mar 19, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

>  From http://tinyurl.com/cle2efp
>
> One of the memorable parts of the *seder* night is during *Shefoch
> Chamascha* when we open the door for Eliyahu Hanavi to come inside and
> drink from the *Kos Shel Eliyahu*. Children all over the world look
> carefully to see if there is less wine in the cup after he leaves, while
> many adults ?accidently? shake the table to make sure that there is less
> wine. What are the sources of this custom? When do we pour the kos of wine
> and what should we do with the leftover wine from the *kos*?drink it,
> spill it out, or save it? In this article I hope to trace this custom to
> its earliest known sources and to discuss some other aspects of the seder
> night related to this topic.[1] I would like to point out that my
> intention in this article is not to collect all the sources and reasons on
> these specific topics but rather to focus on the earliest sources and how
> these various *minhagim* came about.[2]
>
> To begin with, it is worth pointing out that as far as we know today,
> there is no mention of the concept of Kos Shel Eliyahu in all of the
> literature that we have from the Geonim and Rishonim. Neither is there
> mention of it in the Tur, Shulchan Orach, Rema, or other early commentators
> on the Shulchan Orach.
>
> See the above URL for more. YL
>
>
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Message: 13
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 09:48:53 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Luach Shel Chag ha Pesach


Rabbi Mordechai Geller, z"l,  used to prepare a document by this 
title every year.  His son has continued this practice and the 
document,  which is geared to Brooklyn, NY is at

http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/pesach/luach_geller.pdf

It contains much information related to Pesach.  Unfortunately,  not 
all of it scanned so perfectly,  but it is still useful.

YL




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Message: 14
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 Mar 2013 13:23:14 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] gebrochs


R' Joel Rich:

In a recent shiur R' H Schachter said if you hold gebrochts you should be
makpid for keilim as well.

---------------------



Not really possible for those who are not makpid the last day of Yom Tov.
Unless he's suggesting having two sets of Pesach dishes? :-)

 

KT,
MYG

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