Avodah Mailing List

Volume 31: Number 2

Wed, 02 Jan 2013

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Tue, 01 Jan 2013 18:23:17 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] In revolutionary ruling, rabbis allow gender


 From http://tinyurl.com/b2gfquv

Until now, rabbis have forbidden any intervention 
to select the sex of baby ? But Jewish fertility 
center founder Rabbi Menachem Burstein says an 
increase in the number of requests stemming from 
deep psychological needs has prompted rabbis to reconsider.

After years in which rabbis forbade any sort of 
gender selection at conception, a recent 
revolutionary Halachic (Jewish legal) ruling has 
now deemed it permissible to intervene and select 
the gender of a fetus in certain situations.

The ruling was to be officially issued at a 
conference on Wednesday organized by the Puah 
Institute, which offers fertility treatments in line with Jewish law.

"There are three ways to select the gender of a 
fetus,? Institute founder Rabbi Menachem Burstein 
said. ?The first way is the most natural, and 
depends on the man and the exact time the woman 
ovulates. Another method involves putting the 
sperm in a special apparatus to separate the male 
[Y chromosome] sperm from the female [X 
chromosome] sperm. The third method involves in vitro fertilization."

According to Burstein, rabbis have forbidden any 
kind of intervention until now.

"It is considered to be the spilling of seed, and 
a gross intervention, which is generally 
unacceptable. But since the number of requests 
has been growing, and since sometimes the 
requests stem from a deep psychological need, it 
is possible to permit the second and third methods," he said.

"We have come across cases of people who felt it 
was important to have sons to carry on the family 
line because of the Holocaust, or families with 
six or seven daughters in which the father wants 
a son so much that it threatens the marriage. In 
cases like this, the matter will be examined by 
the appropriate rabbis, psychologists and medical 
committees, and clearly a Halachic compromise can be reached.

"Jewish law is making incredible strides as 
medicine advances. It is easiest always to say 
no, but sometimes, if the rules can be eased or 
and if solutions can be found then we should strive for that," he said.

Yitzchok Levine  
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Message: 2
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 1 Jan 2013 23:52:30 -0500 (EST)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] IVF - correction




 

From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@xgmail.com>

In terms of the  historical data that I gave Rbn Katz is correct that
what I gave was for AI  and not IVF....

....As far as halacha goes all the issues I mentioned in  my previous post
hold for IVF also.

.... Others object to IVF on moral grounds
(eg R.  Zilberstein) that it causes chaos and destroys the kedusha of
the Jewish  people.

....When the carrier of the fetus is not the genetic mother there  is a
big argument about who is the halachic mother and will leave it  for
another post

-- 
Eli Turkel





>>>>>
 
If the husband and wife are using their own sperm and eggs I don't  
understand how that "causes chaos and destroys the kedusha of the Jewish  people."  
He may be making an assumption that donor sperm or donor eggs or  a 
surrogate mother are the norm in IVF but in fact they are very much the  exception. 
 IVF actually enables men with poor quality sperm to father  their own 
children and almost always obviates the need for donor sperm.   IVF also allows 
women with blocked Fallopian tubes to simply make a little  detour -- since 
the road from ovaries to womb is blocked, they take a route that  goes from 
ovaries to Petri dish to womb.  When IVF allows a couple to  have children 
using their own sperm and eggs and the wife's own womb, I do not  see where 
there is any "chaos." 
 
--Toby Katz
=============



-------------------------------------------------------------------  



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Message: 3
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 07:07:43 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why Lie When Truth Can Also Achieve Peace


On Jan 1, 2013 11:39 PM, "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 1/01/2013 4:51 PM, Arie Folger wrote:
>> What do you base that on? Prophecy and ruach hakodesh are not at the
>> whims of the prophet. As Rambam explained, one can be ready for prophecy
>> yet not get any.

>> Wouldn't it make more sense to posit that one only sees what G"d wants
>> to reveal to him? No X-Ray Rabbi.

> Prophecy and Ruach Hakodesh are not the same thing.  Nevuah went away.
> Ruach Hakodesh never went away; it's what tzadikim today have.  It's
> not direct communication of information; it's an ability to see the
> hidden truth.  So by default he would know everything that it's relevant
> for him to know, unless Hashem specifically hides it from him.

That's your statement. Can you please back this up with Chazal? Or at least
a Rishon?

--
mit freundlichen Gren,
with kind regards,
Arie Folger
visit my blog at http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
sent from my mobile device




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Message: 4
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:47:17 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] IVF


<<IUC these objections could also apply to AIH(artificial
insemination-husband).  I find the juxtaposition of ?they are not
fulfilling the wishes of G-d.? and ? However, if the couple wants IVF for
their natural desire ? intriguing.  From whence does this natural desire
spring if not from HKB?H and our focus (which imho flows from the will) on
family? Why would it be difficult to prohibit ?>

R. Zilberstein is stating that if one goes to a rabbi and asks whether one
should use IVF the answer (in his opinion) is that it should be
discouraged. If the couple comes to the rabbi and asks if there is any
prohibition to using IVF because they want children (cf Rachel's complaint
to Yaakov)
then R. Zilberstein is stating that there is no specific prohibition. The
desire for children is legitimate but does not turn it into a mitzva.

Thus R. Zilberstein's objection to IVF is more moral (kedusha) than
strictly halacha. Note others do prohibit IVF based on destruction of semen
and claim that one does not fulfill pru uveru while others indeed think
that IVF is a good idea and one does fulfill pru u-veru

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 12:38:00 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] date of the Torah


<<The point of all this being... Shavuos isn't a date, but a the endpoint of
a 50 day process>>

Is this 50 day process a historical fact, i.e. that is just when it occurred
or was it carefully chosen (49=7X7)

-- 
Eli Turkel
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Message: 6
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 13:05:11 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why Lie When Truth Can Also Achieve Peace


On Jan 1, 2013 11:39 PM, "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name> wrote:

>  > Prophecy and Ruach Hakodesh are not the same thing.  Nevuah went away.
> > Ruach Hakodesh never went away; it's what tzadikim today have.  It's
> > not direct communication of information; it's an ability to see the
> > hidden truth.  So by default he would know everything that it's relevant
> > for him to know, unless Hashem specifically hides it from him.
>
> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:07 AM, Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org> wrote:
> That's your statement. Can you please back this up with Chazal? Or at least
> a Rishon?


Gemarrah in Brachos when talking about the Neviot says that Leah Imenu was
*not* a Neviah, but named her children with Ruach HaKodesh.

Kol Tuv,

Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 06:31:35 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why Lie When Truth Can Also Achieve Peace


On Wed, Jan 02, 2013 at 01:05:11PM +0200, Liron Kopinsky wrote:
:>> Prophecy and Ruach Hakodesh are not the same thing...
:>> Ruach Hakodesh never went away; it's what tzadikim today have.  It's
:>> not direct communication of information; it's an ability to see the
:>> hidden truth.  So by default he would know everything that it's relevant
:>> for him to know, unless Hashem specifically hides it from him.

:> On Wed, Jan 2, 2013 at 8:07 AM, Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org> wrote:
:> That's your statement. Can you please back this up with Chazal? Or at least
:> a Rishon?

: Gemarrah in Brachos when talking about the Neviot says that Leah Imenu was
: *not* a Neviah, but named her children with Ruach HaKodesh.

Th issue is not the reisha, whether RhQ and nevu'ah are identical or
whether RhQ went away. The issue is the seifa. Zev claims that RhQ is
"by default ... know[ing] everything that it's relevant for him to know,
unless Hashem specifically hides it from him." This is not necessarily
one of the differences between nevu'ah and RhQ.

I also don't know of a source for this idea.

Also, the claim that nevu'ah "the ability to see a hidden truth" might be
specifically the Rambam and R' Saadia Gaon. According to them, this is the
definition of nevu'ah as well. According to the majority understanding
of parashas Vayeira and the end of Mishpatim... The rishonim who have
no problem saying the Man in the Throne was HQBH and that nevi'im could
not have appeared to Avraham only via nevu'ah do so because they hold
nevu'ah is the reception of a message. And if they hold that WRT nevu'ah
(contra the Rambam and R' Saadia), it is less likely they hold that RhQ
means seeing higher realities.

Although it is possible they hold that that in itself is the difference
between nevu'ah and RhQ -- nevu'ah is the reception of a message, and
RhQ is the perception of a higher reality. I would just want a source for
this idea.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter



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Message: 8
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 08:40:08 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why Lie When Truth Can Also Achieve Peace


On 2/01/2013 1:07 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
> That's your statement. Can you please back this up with Chazal? Or at least a Rishon?
>

What exactly are you challenging?  What part of what I wrote do you not
already know to be true?   Hamefursamos einam tzrichim ra'ayah; are you
just trying to assign me some make-work?!

-- 
Zev Sero               A citizen may not be required to offer a 'good and
z...@sero.name          substantial reason' why he should be permitted to
                        exercise his rights. The right's existence is all
                        the reason he needs.
                            - Judge Benson E. Legg, Woollard v. Sheridan



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Message: 9
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:30:59 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why Lie When Truth Can Also Achieve Peace


[A 5 email exchange follows. I took the liberty of deleting much of
the quoted text from the latter 4 emails to save space, since they are
being included one after the other in quick succession and in the same
digest. -micha]

On Jan 2, 2013 2:40 PM, "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name> wrote:
> On 2/01/2013 1:07 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
>> That's your statement. Can you please back this up with Chazal? Or at
>> least a Rishon?

> What exactly are you challenging?  What part of what I wrote do you not
> already know to be true?   Hamefursamos einam tzrichim ra'ayah; are you
> just trying to assign me some make-work?!

No, I question your definition of ruach hakodesh, and of nevua. A navi is
not a soothsayer or prognosticator. The job of a navi is not to predict
tomorrow's lottery drawing, and hence he has no idea. His job, instead, is
to lead the people to serve G"d and to that end, the greatest among them
get occasional messages from G"d to transmit to the people or to be guided
in his mission of leading.

Peirush: Yaakov would only know what he needed to know, which is based on
what G"d wanted him to know. Mit oder ohne ruach hakodesh.

You hold otherwise, so I challenge you to produce a source to that effect
that is at least three hundred years old.

--
mit freundlichen Gren,
with kind regards,
Arie Folger
visit my blog at http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
sent from my mobile device



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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 09:42:55 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why Lie When Truth Can Also Achieve Peace


On 2/01/2013 9:30 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
> No, I question your definition of ruach hakodesh, and of nevua...
>                                                       His job, instead,
> is to lead the people to serve G"d and to that end, the greatest among
> them get occasional messages from G"d to transmit to the people or to
> be guided in his mission of leading.

Why are you even dragging nevuah into this?  First of all, a navi *is*
"a soothsayer or prognosticator".  When your donkeys go missing, you go
to the navi to ask him where they are.   When you're sick, you go to him
for a cure.  That is most definitely at least one of his roles.  But all
of that is irrelevant, because nobody mentioned nevuah, we are speaking
of ruach hakodesh.  Are you seriously claiming they are the same thing?!
You can't be.  Nevuah went away, at least mostly and/or for a while,
but ruach hakodesh has always been with us.  That alone proves that they're
not the same thing.  So what exactly is your point?

> Peirush: Yaakov would only know what he needed to know, which is based
> on what G"d wanted him to know. Mit oder ohne ruach hakodesh.

How do you know?  What is *your* source for the limits of ruach hakodesh?>

> You hold otherwise, so I challenge you to produce a source to that effect
> that is at least three hundred years old.

Purely out of interest, what is so special about sources older then 300
years?

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name



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Message: 11
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 2 Jan 2013 15:55:12 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why Lie When Truth Can Also Achieve Peace


I am not equating ruach hakodesh with prophecy, but clearly, the former
is subordinate to the latter, since the latter was taken away from us
while the former remained with us.

Therefore, whatever is beyond the purview or power of a navi is definitely
beyond ba'alei ruach hakodesh.

--
mit freundlichen Gren,
with kind regards,
Arie Folger



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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2013 10:15:02 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why Lie When Truth Can Also Achieve Peace


On 2/01/2013 9:55 AM, Arie Folger wrote:
> Therefore, whatever is beyond the purview or power of a navi is definitely
> beyond ba'alei ruach hakodesh.

How does that follow?  They're two different things, why should they
work the same way?  We know from the Rambam that nevuah is direct
communication from Hashem.  Ruach hakodesh doesn't seem to be that.
We constantly see references to people "seeing with ruach hakodesh",
implying that it's not a line of communication but a sort of enhanced
vision, a power to see things that most of us don't.  And we all know
that the nature of vision is to see whatever is in front of one (unless
of course Hashem doesn't want one to see something, e.g. the people of
Sedom, or the soldiers searching Rachav's roof); it stands to reason,
if ruach hakodesh is analogous to vision, that it should work the same
way.

Remember what we're discussing here: a tzadik, who is known to have ruach
hakodesh, knows some piece of information, and we're discussing how he
could have known it.  The OP wanted to deduce from the fact that he knew
it that someone must have told him.  I'm saying that's not necessary.
The facts we have are sufficient to explain how he knew it, so there's no
need to posit a confession scene that isn't recorded anywhere.  Thank you
William of Ockham.

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name


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