Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 108

Tue, 07 Aug 2012

• 1. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on yo ur faucet on Shabbos? (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: geneivas daas [was: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews] (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on yo ur faucet on Shabbos? (Doron Beckerman)
• 5. Re: geneivas daas [was: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews] (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: ceremonies in halacha (Akiva Miller)
• 7. Tzaar Baalei Chayim and ownership (Liron Kopinsky)
• 8. Re: geneivas daas [was: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews] (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on yo ur faucet on Shabbos? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Doron Beckerman)
• 11. Does the Torah Disapprove of Ben Pekua (Meir Rabi)
• 12. WHAT IT IS PROPER TO LEARN (Prof. Levine)
• 13. Re: Does the Torah Disapprove of Ben Pekua (Akiva Blum)
• 14. Re: WHAT IT IS PROPER TO LEARN (Micha Berger)
• 15. Rab Dessler's Givers and Takers (Maxi Yedid)
• 16. Shayala of Onaah (Yosef Skolnick)
• 17. Re: Shayala of Onaah (Rich, Joel)
• 18. Shayala of Onaah (Micha Berger)
• 19. Re: Rab Dessler's Givers and Takers (Micha Berger)
• 20. Re: Shayala of Onaah (Liron Kopinsky)

On 2/08/2012 12:09 PM, Doron Beckerman wrote:
> There is almost invariably some kind of clause dealing with a
> malfunctioned water meter.

Only if it's observed to be malfunctioning.  If the meter were simply
not to run on Shabbos you would get your water for free.  Therefore its
running is lo nicha leih.

> it would be lo echpas leih, which we pasken is the same as lo nicha leih.

Who's "we"?  So far the only one I've seen who paskens that way is the
Oruch.  Rashi says explicitly that lo ichpas is *not* lo nicha, and the
Tosfos that REMT quoted either agrees or is neutral.


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 12:52:34PM +0000, Akiva Miller wrote:
: So RMP and I wondered -- Is there a posek anywhere, who advises that
: on Shabbos, people should try to eat foods which are Oleh Al Shulchan
: Melachim? Or that advises people to avoid foods which are outside of
: that category?...

You mean, who says that chicken cutlets are more appropriate for a
se'udas Shabbos than tuna fish sandwiches? (At least, in this culture...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Thu, 2 Aug 2012 11:17:54 EDT, Zev Sero wrote:
:> Geneivas da'as is learned out from Vayiqra 19:11

: If that's the makor then it says explicitly "ish ba'amiso".

What does that have to do with proving that geneivas da'as is deOraisa,
which the rishonim I pointed you do learn from this pasuq.

I since found the Seforno on Vayiqra 25:17 who says it is assur as a
form of ona'as devarim. Which might explain it's inclusion in SA CM 228
on ona'as devarim. But still, deOraisa.

Now, about geneivas da'as aku"m:
:> more to our point (but less supported) from Bereishis 31:20, "Vayignov
:> Yaaqov es leiv Lavan", an instance of geneivas da'as aku"m.

: And one that was muttar.  Ra'ayah listor!

Actually, this case comes up in discussions of whether one may use
deceit to recover your own propery. (Can you fight fire with fire.)
The assumption is NOT blanket heter.

:> I would also note that midevar sheqer tirchaq is a reflexive lav

: Which is directed to dayanim (and by extension litigants and witnesses),
: isn't it?  Where do we see that it applies outside the context of a
: court case?

Quick source: CC asei 13.

It's a complex inyan. I refer you to
http://www.jewishvalues.us/uploads/101_Emess_vSheker.pdf
You'll see from the Chinukh (source #8) onward, there is a trend to
say that while the iqar mitzvah is by dayanim, "mipenei godel haqilqul"
(to quote the Yad haQetana). It's also relevent to the machloqes about
"qeitzad meraqdim lifnei haqalah", which discusses whether complementing
the bride qualifies as shinui mipenei shalom (tact that isn't quite
lying).

While you're at it, see http://www.jewishvalues.us/uploads/104_Genevas_Daas.PDF
too. It will save a lot of "where do you get?"s.

(For a few years I belonged to a chaburah based on these
booklets, and that's where these opinions were formed. See
<http://www.jewishvalues.us/Sugyos.html> for the full collection.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Worrying is like a rocking chair:
mi...@aishdas.org        it gives you something to do for a while,
http://www.aishdas.org   but in the end it gets you nowhere.
Fax: (270) 514-1507

>> Only if it's observed to be malfunctioning.  If the meter were simply
not to run on Shabbos you would get your water for free.  <<

Until the water co. found out about it. Then they'd charge you. Who says
you'd prefer to run the risk of them finding out and charging you by their
methods rather than have the meter run?

>> Who's "we"?  <<

Beiur Halachah 320:18 s.v delo nicha leih
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On 2/08/2012 6:58 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> What does that have to do with proving that geneivas da'as is deOraisa,
> which the rishonim I pointed you do learn from this pasuq.

I still don't get why you think it's more direct than geneivas aku"m,
which is a clear issur de'oraisa.  (Or isn't it?)

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

Regarding the possibility that (in R' Micha Berger's words) 'The Gra made a
berakhah "al akhilas matzah" whenever eating matzah during the entire 8
days of Pesach', Rav Elazar M. Teitz wrote:

> It seems inconceivable that the Gaon would have had such a
> shitta without mention being made in Maasei Rav.  It is
> certainly a bigger chiddush than, e.g., making a b'racha
> whenever entering the sukka, even without eating; yet that
> is mentioned, while a b'racha on matza other than at the
> seder is not.

Is it the *Gra's* chiddush to to say a b'racha on the sukka even when not eating? Or is this view older than that?

As I understand it, Mishne Brura 639:46 says that this is the "dina
d'gemara, l'daas poskim rishonim". And the Aruch Hashulchan 639:26 also
gives it as "dina d'gemara", and specifically cites the Rif, the Rosh, and
Rambam Sukka 6:12 as supporting this view.

Akiva Miller

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Is there a point at which someone can forfeit ownership of an animal of
theirs because they cause it too much pain? Or do we say "azov taazov
*imo*" shows that even if the animal is being afflicted, there is no
responsibility on anyone else to remove that suffering unless the owner is
involved as well? Or would we say that he maintains ownership of the animal
as long as he is preventing it's tzaar, in which case "imo" would apply.
But if he is not preventing the tzaar, then he loses his rights to the
animal, and someone else can now take responsibility of removing the
suffering from the animal?

Kol Tuv,
-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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On Thu, Aug 02, 2012 at 07:18:52PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 2/08/2012 6:58 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> What does that have to do with proving that geneivas da'as is deOraisa,
>> which the rishonim I pointed you do learn from this pasuq.

> I still don't get why you think [geneivas da'as] more direct than geneivas aku"m,
> which is a clear issur de'oraisa.  (Or isn't it?)

I am not sure why de'oraisa vs derabbanan is being conflated with the
directness of the linkage between geneivah proper and the issur.

But Rashi and the Ran, both on Sanhedrin 57a say *gezel* aku"m is a
derabbanan, but they were mandating a particular implementation of the
deOraisa of chilul hasheim. Rashi "Yisrael beKuti mutar" refers you to
BQ 113a.

If even a mi'ut of rishonim can hold that gezel aku"m is derived
from chilul hasheim, then geneivas aku"m (also) isn't clearly linked
to geneivah.

And if we're using my theory of morality vs fraternity, it would imply
that geneivah and gezel from ovedei AZ (in particular, many rishonim
hold aku"m here means specifically aku"m) is unbrotherly, not immoral --
aside from BALM issues. Whereas lying to the same person is immoral. I
find that a hard conclusion to fathom.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Fri, Aug 03, 2012 at 01:46:28AM +0300, Doron Beckerman wrote:
: Until the water co. found out about it. Then they'd charge you. Who says
: you'd prefer to run the risk of them finding out and charging you by their
: methods rather than have the meter run?

In any case, didn't RSM already argue (quite convincingly, IMHO) from
the 1st mishnah in AZ -- "nifra'in meihem mipenei shehu meitzar", that
paying even a valid debt isn't called "nicha lei"? If so, we can ask
why, but not if.

(The conversation would look the same, but we already have our answer
-- if we hold that PRDNL is okay for a derabbanan or double-derabbanan,
and the meter qualifies. If the meter doesn't always display the count,
problem solved trivially -- there is no issur to overcome.)

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

>> In any case, didn't RSM already argue (quite convincingly, IMHO) from
the 1st mishnah in AZ -- "nifra'in meihem mipenei shehu meitzar", that
paying even a valid debt isn't called "nicha lei"? If so, we can ask
why, but not if. <<

The discussion regarding the water meter doesn't have to do with paying the
debt, but with incurring it. If without the water meter you would incur (or
perhaps even potentially incur) a larger debt to the company because it
will charge based on the clause dealing with that contingency, then it is
nicha leih.
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It was suggested to me that since breeding herds of BP would sidestep
Hilchos Shechitah,Tereifos, Cheilev and Gid, it must be a non preferred
option.
I would be pleased to hear everyone's thoughts.

Meir
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Please see http://tinyurl.com/98fcosh  for a detailed discussion of this topic.

One opinion brought at this URL is

ii.Mishnah Berurah (155:3): Every day, one must learn Mikra, Mishnah, 
Gemara and Poskim. Ba'alei Batim who learn only three or four hours a 
day should not learn only Talmud, for then they are not Yotzei. 
Rather, they should learn also Poskim, everyone according to his ability.
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On Sun, Aug 5, 2012 at 2:41 AM, Meir Rabi <meir...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It was suggested to me that since breeding herds of BP would sidestep
> Hilchos Shechitah,Tereifos, Cheilev and Gid, it must be a non preferred
> option.
> I would be pleased to hear everyone's thoughts.
>
>
> Shchita? Ben pakua is chayav!

Akiva
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On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 08:04:49AM -0400, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Please see http://tinyurl.com/98fcosh  for a detailed discussion of this topic.

> One opinion brought at this URL is
>> ii.Mishnah Berurah (155:3): Every day, one must learn Mikra, Mishnah,  
>> Gemara and Poskim. Ba'alei Batim who learn only three or four hours a  
>> day should not learn only Talmud, for then they are not Yotzei. Rather, 
>> they should learn also Poskim, everyone according to his ability.

But the Ashkenazi practice of focusing on Bavli is very old, and is
defended by Rabbeinu Tam (AZ 19b "yeshaleish"). The gemara (Sanhedrin 24a)
asks, "What is 'Bavel"?" I presume this is referring to the yeshivos and
mode of learning there, since Talmud Bavli didn't exist in R' Yochanan's
day, and yet it's R' Yochanan who gives the reply, "Belula bemiqra,
belula bemishna, belula betalmud."

R' Tam says it's for this reason that we focus on shas; that with shas
alone one learns all three -- miqra, mishna, and talmud.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             We are what we repeatedly do.
mi...@aishdas.org        Thus excellence is not an event,
http://www.aishdas.org   but a habit.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   - Aristotle

Rab Dessler's famous concept of givers and takers was based and/or inspired
in Baal HaSulam teachings?
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http
://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/137032/Major-Pricing-Glitch-Wi
th-El-Al-Tickets---Trips-To-Israel-Sell-For-For-%24337.html


What is the halacha of a shaliyach underpricing an item accidentally?

Yosef Skolnick
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http
://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/137032/Major-Pricing-Glitch-Wi
th-El-Al-Tickets---Trips-To-Israel-Sell-For-For-%24337.html

What is the halacha of a shaliyach underpricing an item accidentally?

Yosef Skolnick
======================================================
Did any halachic kinyan take place in this case?  It will be very
interesting to see if any shaylot are asked, especially given the position
that El AL can't fly on shabbat!
KT
Joel Rich


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RYS mentioned the error made in pricing El-Al tickets that led to very
cheap airfares for some luck customers.  He asked:
> What is the halacha of a shaliyach underpricing an item accidentally?

El-Al will be honoring those prices. So, while I'm not answering your
general question, in our case there are two possibilities.

Either they decided for customer relations reasons to be mokhelim the
money, and therefore there is no onaah.

Or the FAA or some such agency is making them eat the loss. In which case
the CM 359 version of DDD would apply, and I would think the qinyan is
chal bedi'eved, but taking advantage of the shaliach's error might still
have been assur lekhat-chilah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

On Sun, Aug 05, 2012 at 09:02:23PM -0500, Maxi Yedid wrote:
: Rab Dessler's famous concept of givers and takers was based and/or inspired
: in Baal HaSulam teachings?

Or visa versa, their lives overlapped.
    RYA:  1885-1954
    REED: 1892-1953

The truth is, Tenu'as haMussar really doesn't utilize Qabbalah much. It's
one of the reasons why I, with the inclinations that took me into
engineering, like it. So I think your suggested derivation is unlikely.

Also, it seems to be where thought in Litta or perhaps around the seviva
of Mussar in particular was at the time. Eg R' Shimon Shkop (1860-1939,
about one generation older than RYA and REED) in his haqdamah explains
"na'aseh adam betzalmeinu qidmuseinu" as being a meitiv. How far is that
from REED saying it's about being a nosein?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
mi...@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv

On Tuesday, August 7, 2012, Micha Berger wrote:

> RYS mentioned the error made in pricing El-Al tickets that led to very
> cheap airfares for some luck customers.  He asked:
> > What is the halacha of a shaliyach underpricing an item accidentally?
>
> El-Al will be honoring those prices. So, while I'm not answering your
> general question, in our case there are two possibilities.
>
> Either they decided for customer relations reasons to be mokhelim the
> money, and therefore there is no onaah.
>
> Or the FAA or some such agency is making them eat the loss. In which case
> the CM 359 version of DDD would apply, and I would think the qinyan is
> chal bedi'eved, but taking advantage of the shaliach's error might still
> have been assur lekhat-chilah.
>

A third possibility is that their contract with the third party stipulates
that if a mistake like this is made, the third party is liable, not El Al.
Presumably, if this were true, there would be no onaah issues, but I'm not
at all sure of that.


-- 
Liron Kopinsky
liron.kopin...@gmail.com
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