Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 106

Wed, 01 Aug 2012

• 1. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Zev Sero)
• 2. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: ceremonies in halacha (Micha Berger)
• 4. Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (David Riceman)
• 5. rif yomi (M Cohen)
• 6. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Rich, Joel)
• 8. "Chezkuni Vaccine" (David Wacholder)
• 9. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Zev Sero)

On 1/08/2012 5:26 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:
> R' Micha Berger wrote:
> "I would be happier if PVWC put the meter on a timer and gave me my water for free on Shabbos. Therefore, helping them bill me is lo nicha lei."
>
> And I would be happier if when I cut off the chicken's head it
> wouldn't die, but it will.

That's a law of nature; it's impossible for it not to die.  And in the
iconic example, the bird's death is not lo nicha leih, it's simply
irrelevant to him.  He doesn't care whether it lives or dies.


> The same thing applies here, the water company is billing me for usage
> and when I turn on the faucet the meter will record my usage on Shabbos.

There is no physical law that compels the water company to charge you.
There's no physical reason why it can't give you water for free.  It
chooses not to do so, and that decision is definitely lo nicha lach; it
hurts you in the pocket.  You understand the decision, but you wish it
had gone the other way.


> When I come to turn on the water faucet on Shabbos, we can't deal with
> hypotheticals but the facts as they are right now and

You've just destroyed the whole concept of "lo nicha leih".


> right now I want
> the meter to record my usage so I will know how much to pay.

No you don't.  Right now you *still* want not to have to pay.  If the
meter were to stop running you'd be happy, not sad.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 08:59:28AM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> And I would be happier if when I cut off the chicken's head it  
>> wouldn't die, but it will.

> Would you really?  I think not.  You want the chicken to be dead.

The idiom is not from a case that is mutar or assur, it's just the
source of the idiom. I'm not even sure the origin is halachic. For
all I know, it's a local Babylonian expression. "Pesiq reishei"
doesn't appear in the Y-mi, and in fact there is speculation that not
only doen't the phrase exist, in EY they didn't have the halachic
concept altogether.

But in any case, it's just an idiom, not an legal case. After all,
cutting off the head would be mechateikh regardless of the chicken
a"h's demise.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 02:37:50AM +0000, Akiva Miller wrote:
:>  WRT a mitzvah qiyumis, perhaps one should stll make a berakhah
:> on performing a matbeias mitzvah in avoidance of the issur of
:> chameitz. And if not in general, perhaps on Shabbos ch"m and
:> the last days, when the se'udos are chiyuvim and therefore
:> eating matzah is unavoidable.

: I will concede that eating matzah can be considered a matbeias
: mitzvah. But when you frame it in this manner, it seems to me that you
: are suggesting that we say a Birkas Hamitzvah on the fulfillment of a
: Lo Taaseh. (or perhaps better phrased, on the *avoidance* of a Lo Taaseh.)

On the matbeia of an asei, which happens to be necessitated by avoiding a
lav. The berakhah isn't on the lav itself, but on the resulting imitation
of an asei.

Which I could see parallel to doing the matbeia of an asei as an einah
metzuvah ve'osah or as a minhag. In the two existing cases, "asher
qidishanu bemitzvosav vetzivanu" is referring to that which I'm about
to imitate.

At least, according to this sevara for why Ashk women make berakhos on
mitzvos asei shehazman geraman (MASG) that they are peturos from. I also
heard people extend the logic of women saying "ve'al berisekha shechasamta
bivsareinu". Women include this phrase in benching because the "-nu"
here refers to corporate Israel. It is sealed in our nation's flesh,
whether the person benthcing is subject to the beris herself (or himself,
if he medically has to be an areil). Similarly, Hashem sanctified the
Jewish People with the commandment to do something, whether the person
making the berakhah is one of those being commanded.

The thread started with my feeling that this was a third situation in
which the same sevara applies, so if it really is why Ashkenazim make
berakhos on minhagim and Ashkenazios on MASG then why wouldn't we make
berakhos on matzah, like the Maharsham's unnamed tzadiq?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             With the "Echad" of the Shema, the Jew crowns
mi...@aishdas.org        G-d as King of the entire cosmos and all four
http://www.aishdas.org   corners of the world, but sometimes he forgets
Fax: (270) 514-1507      to include himself.     - Rav Yisrael Salanter

RMB:

<<I just fear (as I said on Areivim) that these discussions are an 
example of "the perfect is the enemy of the good". Daf Yomi gets men in 
front of sefarim, and while they could learn more or better, they are 
learning. (I presume no one is claiming actual zero comprehension.) It's 
what we have, and it works that far.>>

See the citation from the author of the Tanya in AhS YD 246:17.

David Riceman

RM wrote.. I don't know of anyone learning Rif Yomi. And while it's a
logical alternative, 
I don't see gemara-stripped-of-"lomdus" successfully catching on to the
scale Daf Yomi has.

Probably true when your issue is scaling it for the rabim - yeshiva educated
guys have 
been trained into seeing gemara (aka dyomi) as the only limud.

But for the record, I teach a rif yomi to a group of BTs
We keep pace with daf yomi, shifting to likutei halachos where there is no
rif

Approx 2.5 hrs/wk (1 sometimes 2 nights a week)

I find it the perfect material for those whose time commitment 
or learning abilities are not up to daf yomi.

Makes chazara a lot easier!

Testing oneself on dafi yomi tests (ie dirshu) after doing the rif 
shows that you typically know 90%+ of the ikar daf yomi material.

For the aggadeta sections, one can use ain Yaakov (or the English ArtScroll)
as desired.

http://rifyomi.com seems to have stopped producing shiurim after moed
(although other useful material there)
http://alfasi.blogspot.ca/ (josh Waxman) has translated much rif, but also
seems to have stopped

mc

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 01:23:52PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
> See the citation from the author of the Tanya in AhS YD 246:17.

Paraphrasing the se'if:

R' Hai Gaon advises R' Shmuel haNagid (according to the Rivash) to have
everyone immese themselves in Mishnah and Talmud, and then even the amei
ha'aretz will be immersed in them and positively influenced -- and there
is no other way to aquire yir'as Shamayim, yir'as cheit, zerizus, anavah,
taharah or qedushah.

Which the AhS believes is even more necessary in his day, with the
rampant flight to heresy.

The Shakh and the Taz (s"q 1) quotes the Derishah that in his day (and
ours), with our lesser time allocated for learning, better to learn
halakhah pesuqah -- OC and the publicly relevent dinim of YD, CM, and EhE.

The SA HaRav... well it was unclear to me if he was being cited as
agreeing with the Derishah or establishing the next point. So I went to
SAhR OC 155:1 to look...

The SAhR says that a person should learn TSBK, TSBP, halakhos pesuqos,
talmud. But talmud can't be the tachlis of his learning, because he
first needs to know all that halakhah without deep sevaros, just to do
applied halakhah.

Back to the AhS....

However we have seen that if we tell them this -- presumably to focus on
applied halakhah -- they won't learn at all. People just want to learn
a daf gemara every day. So we shouldn't stop them, and halevai they keep
to it.

"Vekhol divrei Torah meshivas nafesh meivi'ah leyir'as Hashem tehorah!"

(To which I can only say: Barukh shekivanti ledaas R YM Epstein.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I always give much away,
mi...@aishdas.org        and so gather happiness instead of pleasure.
http://www.aishdas.org           -  Rachel Levin Varnhagen
Fax: (270) 514-1507

<<I just fear (as I said on Areivim) that these discussions are an 
example of "the perfect is the enemy of the good". Daf Yomi gets men in 
front of sefarim, and while they could learn more or better, they are 
learning. (I presume no one is claiming actual zero comprehension.) It's 
what we have, and it works that far.>>

See the citation from the author of the Tanya in AhS YD 246:17.

David Riceman

_______________________________________________
AIUI the ah's is saying it's a lchatchila bdieved - we'd be better off if
we could educate people that they shouldn't always get what they want but
if we try sometimes we might just find that they can get what they need
instead
KT
Joel Rich

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The  Baal  Pe'or worshippers are gone!  You the great majority overcame the
temptations  - you attached yourself strongly to Hashem - can expect
 Divine Protection as before!  One worry nags our serenity. How will  we
 guarantee that we will not back-slide and chalila do the worst? Included
must be the confidence that we can all avoid Pe'or worship.  But how to
make safeguards that we  can do all in our  power to avoid even the
temptation?


Chezkuni points out the answer.  If we take the "Chezkuni Vaccine", we
obtain  "immunization" against Idol Worship.  We will feel secure. We will
not worship Pe'or next time either, no matter what new stratagems  Bil'am's
wannabe-successors plot. Surely and securely, our expression of dedication
will be reciprocated by Hashem's  complete protection!!  We must eagerly
stand in line to take and absorb the "Chezkuni Vaccine". Then as
individuals, and collectively, we will be always and  ever more dedicated
to Hashem, and "beloved"   and protected by Hashem.


Chezkuni gives a treasure map.  "The entire Command that I personally voice
the command now - do not  substute for it and do not detract from it!!"
 Where is the potency?

At first he suggests it is akin to the medicine bottle message - "Effective
only when taken as directed!"  Part of parenthood is repetition, even to
children not paying fervent attention. Is that the magic elixir?

I repeat - "Do not stray - keep within the boundaries of the law"  or - "Do
not count wrong"! . What would be the temptation to count wrong?  We know,
we heard them at Har Sinai, then from Mosheh Eved hashem,. These are the
exact words even letters pronounced by Hashem to Mosheh! I will review my
lessons assiduously! If I am lazy, I could mistakenly go off track,
admittedly so. Does the Torah envision somebody in the shadow of Har Sinai
being  foolish enough to Add or Subtract from Hashem's words?  Would such a
person find a following?

Write his speech - "  I want only Eight Commandments - Ten is much too
heavy. Take out Kibud Eim, it so passe and outdated. Make Shabbos a
workday. We will meet at  4 PM and we will erase some!!"  This sounds
absurd.  Where is the realistic scenario that needs special desperate
warnings?


"Chezkuni Vaccine" -  is aimed specifically at the temptation to worhip
Avodah Zara. Avoidance of Avodah Zara indeed will lead us to Everlasting
Good Fortune.  If this works,  we will never end up in Idol-Worship, thus
avoiding also the dire punishments. But what gives the Vaccine its potency?
How do we become  Idol-Worship-Immune??


Pharaoh arrogantly substituted himself for the One and Only.  As SunGod
Par'oh "made" the sun rise and the "Nile-Creator-/Inventor"  "made"  the
annual floods. His Ministers  promoted him as an independent self-contained
substitute for the One Hashem.

To keep opposition from developing, any Kedushah - WillPower and
Self-Denial - was considered treasonous. Worship of the OneOnlyhashem would
 make Par'oh look mortal and vulnerable by comparison. Thus it became Law,
written in heiroglyphics and enforced.   The worship of  Phr'oh-Nile-Sun
 SuperHuman was set up as arch-rival  competitor  Worship of the
OneOnlyHashem.

Legislation  against  One-Only-God took many forms. It may have obligated
immorality, the flaunting of any potential for Faithful Family life in
Par'oh's "advanced" empire. Strong families were suppreessed  as they
weakened the grip of the Dictator/Idol.  Development of modesty
and self-control were outlawed as as potential breeding grounds for
Commitment to Par'oh'sarch-rival, the One-Hashem. With abandonment of
Family Life  worship of Hashem can have no foundation. .
If they were successful in destruction of families, it necessitated strong
action - Otot Umoftim b'admat Bnei Cham, the first  Land of Immorality.
 Mitzrayim had been associated with the "Loss of Signal" of  Hashem's
presence and involvement  - itself on the Divine Scale a deterioration of
Family Values. A necessary part of the transformation into Am Kadosh Atah
Lashem Elokecha - was restoration of the strong structure of  Family Life.
The way a child sees his Avraham-AVinu-microcosm l father is the model for
his relationship with Hashem.. Discredited was  the crown-prince, Idol to
Be, Par'oh's Bchor-God.


The Jewsactions connected them with the Avos, and developed them into the
Priestly Seed of Avraham.  They had absorbed Avraham's lessons well. Their
seperate uniquely modest life-style announces and reflects the mutual
commitment to each other. So as a nation yisarel i s connected to the
OneGod.
 [Specific mention that Hashem is King of the Wold is already implied once
he is entitled "Elokei Avraham". Tosafot bases the Kingship of Hashem on
Avraham's bringing the awareness of Hashem into the world. Melech Haolam
would be duplicative. "Elokei Avraham" is permanent and foundational. The
Jewish People are  the main foundation and expression of  Kingdom of Hashem
- which is the Commitment of Hashem. ] It is one relationship they are -
Zera Avraham Ohavo.  jAvraham created commitment  to Love of Hashem.
The Zera Avraham, even as powerless subjugated captives still maintained
 Modest Language and Modest boundaries, despite the ceaseless oppression.
Included was keeping  the backbone necessary to discipline bodily desires.
Mitzrayim - the non-Family self-worshippers - are contrasted with Hashem's
Kedusha. Torah repeatedly warns of the abominations that were promoted by
the Mitzrayim Kingdom. Chasing immodesty weakens and distracts from
 commitment  to Havayah the One Almighty. Tefillin express and strengthen
the commitment.

Bil'am first dissolved the mutual trust and comitment of the man wandering
outside the Clouds of Glory. I looked quite innocent, then the  old lady
was suddenly a young lady. Once he lost his family trust in himself, his
trust in hashem collapsed also. When he gave up on being able to return to
Camp, she would demand that the men sacrifice to Pe'or including exhibiting
their "connection with nature"  by  defecation.

Thus the fiery mutual trust and commitment to worship the God of Sinai
would be replaced by an embittered and shattered self image.
Bil'am's plot attempted to undermine the confidence of Bnai Yisrael that
they themselves can long-term worship Hashem faithfully  without straying
and  evoking Divine Anger.

"Chezkuni Vaccine" counters that you will keep to Kedusha within your
family structure. Then your strong connections separate you from Pe'or and
its destructie potential. Zera Avraham continues in his footsteps.  Kedusha
and commitment in the Family Home, leads to security in worship of Hashem.
You are secure in your own dedication. It is strong and stable and will
last evermore. Permance and Trust in Hashem is the Attachment.
.

Staying secure and strengthening family bonds at home - and with Hashem
lead to the strength of the Jewish People.  It begins with believing in
Hashem's untilateral permanent commitment.  We reply with our commitment to
accept Hashem as our Father Provider Protector.

As long as we act consistently with  the Mutual Commitment - Covenant -
which still applies we will be safe. .

Should we project desperation and  lack of Trust, we will add superstitious
novel distractions and magic like in Mitzrayim.  Connection - Prayer
expresses and brings  the Rachamim Pipeline - do not kick it under the rug.


A person who thinks he will worship Pe'or, feels rejected.  he will be
tempted to join the surrounding nations. Most ancient people quickly were
assimilated  until they completely lost their unique identities. They
became part of  the surrounding majority culture.  That was the expectation
of  Par'oh.
The goal of Bil'am's "White Paper" was to remove  Dor Hamidbar from their
Ananei Hakavod. t Hashem's commitment  to bring them and permanently keep
them in Eretz Yisrae;would be voided.

Fractionally, Bil'am succeeded in enticing some to worship Baal Pe'or -
thus leaving Hashem, self-destructing as part of Tziv'os Hashem, those who
are attached and committed to Him only.

Exercising the "muscles" of commitment - to the family we live among, to
our neighbors and to Hashem - that is the Chezkuni Vaccine. They use every
opportunity to  show their cleaving Dveikut in  Hashem. They feel no need
for "surrogate fathers" or substitutes. They  are all alive and
strengthened.
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On 1/08/2012 9:59 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> And I would be happier if when I cut off the chicken's head it wouldn't
>> die, but it will.

> Would you really?  I think not.  You want the chicken to be dead.

Why? All you need is the head; what do you care what happens to the rest
of it?


On 1/08/2012 9:59 AM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> If I'm not mistaken, when we entered Kenaan, Yehoshua made us accept
> certain rules. One of them was that water was no one's property. So I'm
> not sure that paying for water is anything but an undesirable necessity.

I don't know how water supply works in Israel, but in most places one
doesn't really pay for water but for the service of bringing it to
ones home. Yehoshua set the Giv`onim to be water-drawers, but I've
never seen it claimed that he made them work for free! Throughout the
pre-modern-plumbing world, water-drawers were paid, and the modern water
company is just a fancy Giv`oni.

Nevertheless, I would rather not have to pay, so keeping the Giv`oni's
accounts for him is "lo nicha li".

-- 
Zev Sero
z...@sero.name

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 02:15:50PM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
: AIUI the ah's is saying it's a lchatchila bdieved - we'd be better
: off if we could educate people that they shouldn't always get what they
: want but if we try sometimes we might just find that they can get what
: they need instead

I think that overstates it. He is acknowledging that for all the value
of focusing on halakhah pesuqah, it is still true that ein adam lomeid
ela mah shelibo chafeitz.

None of which discusses the issue of pace and whether those of us who
aren't geniuses can do gemara justice with only 45 min per daf. The AhS
is referring to topic, not quality. R' Hai Gaon's advice explains that
this too has deep middos value, beyond issues of havanah. Just from the
experience of being around the topic.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

On 1/08/2012 1:20 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> The idiom is not from a case that is mutar or assur, it's just the
> source of the idiom. I'm not even sure the origin is halachic. For
> all I know, it's a local Babylonian expression. "Pesiq reishei"
> doesn't appear in the Y-mi, and in fact there is speculation that not
> only doen't the phrase exist, in EY they didn't have the halachic
> concept altogether.
>
> But in any case, it's just an idiom, not an legal case. After all,
> cutting off the head would be mechateikh regardless of the chicken
> a"h's demise.

AFAIK it is indeed a legal case, where you cut the head off a bird to
make a child's toy, and have no interest in what happens to the rest
of the bird.   http://mechon-mamre.org/i/3101.htm#6   Normally this
would be mis'asek, and therefore patur according to R Shimon, but he
concedes that in this case it's psik reisheih velo yamus and he's
chayav.  PRdLNL is an exception to this concession; if he davka would
rather that the chicken remain alive then R Shimon returns to his
position that mis'asek is patur.  The LNL negates the PR.

BTW, in reference to your claim that LNL means only that he doesn't
positively want it, and includes cases where he's indifferent, see
Shabbos 75a, Rashi dh "tfei nicha leih".  Rashi says explicitly that
where he's indifferent R Shimon concedes that he's chayav, and the
exception to R Shimon's concession is only where he would rather the
melacha didn't happen.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon


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