Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 105

Wed, 01 Aug 2012

• 1. Re: The Bible cites itself (Simon Montagu)
• 2. Re: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Showering During the Nine Days (Akiva Miller)
• 4. Re: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Brush teeth after seudat shlishit (Poppers, Michael)
• 6. Re: ceremonies in halacha (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: ceremonies in halacha (Akiva Miller)
• 9. Re: Imposing dress codes on non-Jews (Akiva Miller)
• 10. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Marty Bluke)
• 11. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Micha Berger)
• 12. Meat on Motzei Tisha B'Av (Isaac Balbin)
• 13. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Liron Kopinsky)
• 14. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Lisa Liel)
• 15. Re: Freeing a Slave (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Ezra Chwat)
• 17. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Does Daf Yomi Exemplify Talmud Torah? (Rich, Joel)
• 19. Re: If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on your faucet on Shabbos? (Micha Berger)

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 9:02 PM, David Riceman <drice...@optimum.net> wrote:
> There are lots of implicit self citations in the Bible, e.g., Eicha 2:1
> "v'lo zachar hadom raglav" alluding to Isaiah 66:1 "v'ha'aretz hadom
> raglay".  That's useful because the citation can't be the other way around
> (only Isaiah spells out the nimshal) and it fits the traditional chronology
> but not the chronology advocated by Biblical critics.
>
> I've run across several examples like this, but I've never been organized
> enough to take notes.  Does anyone know of a published list, or would anyone
> care to contribute examples to help make such a list?

Eicha 2:15 quotes Tehillim 48:3
Melachim 1:16:34 refers to Yehoshua 6:26

On 31/07/2012 6:32 PM, Micha Berger wrote:

> This line of reasoning falls, though, when one compares geneivas aku"m
> with geneivas da'as aku"m, where the latter is more directly assur.

How so?

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

I omitted several important words from the last paragraph of my previous post. Here is the corrected version:

R' Joel Schnur wrote:

> ... BTW, Rav Moshe allowed laundered shirts to be worn during
> the nine days. He held that ONLY starched shirts were forbidden
> for first time use... I spoke with Rav Aron Felder...  In his
> words, it was the "snap" of a starched shirt that Rav Moshe said
> was the issur. When I asked about No-Iron shirts, he reiterated
> "starched shirts because of their snap, that's all."

The Mechaber 442:3 mentions starch in the context of laundry that might
contain chometz, so he was clearly aware of this technology. If so, why is
it raised in a Nine Days context only by such recent poskim?

Further, if the "snap" is a critical factor, I think only clothes which
were pressed (=ironed) would have that quality. But Mishneh Brurah 551:23
seems to say that clothes which only underwent kibus, without gihutz may
NOT be worn until after Tish'a B'Av. I've always understood gihutz to be
pressing the clothes, and if that is correct, then Rav Moshe would seem to
be disagreeing with that MB. He is allowed to do so, of course, but I just
thought I should point it out.

Akiva Miller


____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/501870f8e4b8470f8424est51vuc

On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 06:39:11PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 31/07/2012 6:32 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>> This line of reasoning falls, though, when one compares geneivas aku"m
>> with geneivas da'as aku"m, where the latter is more directly assur.

> How so?

Because my rule would have one conclude that geneivah is moral but
not fraternal. The reisha, that it's moral, is absurd.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

In Avodah V30n104, RnLL noted, "...we wouldn't ordinarily chow down on half
a can of Pringles on Shabbat."	Isn't eating such food at any s'udah
shlishis, never mind the one this past Shabbos/9Av, accordingly problematic
because it displays a lack of kavod for Shabbos, even if there is no issue
of hachanah because it's not obvious that one is eating a lot of a
particular type of potato product in order to fast better the next 25
hours?	(Perhaps "a lack of kavod for Shabbos" is not an issue, or perhaps
eating food on Shabbos that one [how 'bout a ben-melech] would not
ordinarily eat on Shabbos is irrelevant?)  TIA for your thoughts. 

All the best from 
-- Michael Poppers via BB pager

On Mon, Jul 30, 2012 at 2:52pm EDT, I wrote:
: The Gra made a berakhah "al akhilas matzah" whenever eating matzah during
: the entire 8 days of Pesach. He holds that while the mitzvah chiyuvis
: is only the first night(s) of Pesach, there is a qiyum mitzvah by eating
: matzah the rest of Pesach.

I was only sorta right.

It is generally assumed that the unnamed "tzadiq" referred to in the
Maharsham 1:209 who made such berakhos was the Gra. But the Sedei Chemed
also discusses it, to no conclusion, in vol 8 "chameitz umatzah" 14:10.

So, I guess it's not so clear after all. Thanks to RJSchnur for pushing
me to look it up.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When a king dies, his power ends,
mi...@aishdas.org        but when a prophet dies, his influence is just
http://www.aishdas.org   beginning.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                    - Soren Kierkegaard

On 31/07/2012 9:51 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Tue, Jul 31, 2012 at 06:39:11PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>> On 31/07/2012 6:32 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> This line of reasoning falls, though, when one compares geneivas aku"m
>>> with geneivas da'as aku"m, where the latter is more directly assur.
>
>> How so?
>
> Because my rule would have one conclude that geneivah is moral but
> not fraternal. The reisha, that it's moral, is absurd.

I meant how is the latter more directly assur than the former?  Geneivas
Akum is assur min hatorah, isn't it?  Whereas where is *any* geneivas
daas assur min hatorah?


-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon

R' Micha Berger wrote:

> ... According to RYZS, even if one doesn't hold like the Gra
>  WRT a mitzvah qiyumis, perhaps one should stll make a berakhah
> on performing a matbeias mitzvah in avoidance of the issur of
> chameitz. And if not in general, perhaps on Shabbos ch"m and
> the last days, when the se'udos are chiyuvim and therefore
> eating matzah is unavoidable.

I will concede that eating matzah can be considered a matbeias mitzvah. But
when you frame it in this manner, it seems to me that you are suggesting
that we say a Birkas Hamitzvah on the fulfillment of a Lo Taaseh. (or
perhaps better phrased, on the *avoidance* of a Lo Taaseh.)

It is quite unusual to make a bracha on a lav. (But not unheard of; see
next paragraph.) But it is also an unusual situation. All Pesach long, one
could conceivably have avoided chametz simply by happenstance. But on
Shabbos and Yom Tov, one must *actively* avoid chametz, in order to be able
to eat the seudos properly. And if we are *actively* avoiding chametz, then
saying the bracha suddenly doesn't seem so odd.

At this point I'd like to point out an old post of mine in Avodah 25:294,
http://www.aish
das.org/avodah/vol25/v25n294.shtml#06 in which I quoted the Etz Yosef
(in Siddur Otzar Hatefilos) as showing how one particular bracha is
actually a Birkas Hamitzvah on an Issur D'Rabbanan.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Better Than A Facelift&#63
Doctor Reveals Lazy Way To Look Up To 15 Years Younger in 17 Seconds
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/501896da8ee6c16da6b20st51vuc

R' Marty Bluke wrote:

> There has been a discussion on areivim about the dress codes
> that some Chasidim are imposing on their non-Jewish customers
> in their stores ... Are there any halachos relating to tznius
> for non-Jews? ... We have various halachos of kedoshim tihyu,
> lo tasuru acharei eyneichem, etc. why would any of these apply
> to a non-Jew? If they don't should we be trying to impose our
> morality (for lack of a better word) on the non-Jews?

There's another point you're missing. Let's say that none of those halachos
apply to non-Jews, and that we should not be imposing our morality on them.
Nevertheless, perhaps it is okay for us to respectfully ask them not to
expose us to their dress codes and their activities. Too often, we look at
Hilchos Tznius in terms of how the other person should dress. Too rarely,
we look at it in terms of what we should be looking at.

And I say this quite strenuously, not only about non-Jews, but perhaps even
more importantly about Jews who are Shomrei Mitzvos but hold differently
than we do. So often I have heard women complain, "What's their problem? My
knees were totally covered! Why are they imposing their standards on me?" -
being totally oblivious to the fact that she is also imposing her standards
on them, forcing them to see things that they'd prefer to avoid.

Like so many interpersonal activities, much depends on how it is presented.
If there is a perception that we are trying to impose our morality on them,
then we are going about it the wrong way. But if we can give the message
that we're simply trying to preserve our own standards *on* *our* *turf*,
then I see nothing wrong.

Now, for a moment, imagine an upscale restaurant, where men are not allowed
in without a tie and jacket. It's not about imposing morality. It's about
maintaining standards.

(My apologies if any of this was already mentioned on Areivim. I don't read it.)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Woman is 53 But Looks 25
Mom reveals 1 simple wrinkle trick that has angered doctors...
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/50189dc81c37a1dc7303cst54vuc

R' Micha Berger wrote:
"I would be happier if PVWC put the meter on a timer and gave me my water
for free on Shabbos. Therefore, helping them bill me is lo nicha lei."

And I would be happier if when I cut off the chicken's head it wouldn't
die, but it will. The same thing applies here, the water company is billing
me for usage and when I turn on the faucet the meter will record my usage
on Shabbos. When I come to turn on the water faucet on Shabbos, we can't
deal with hypotheticals but the facts as they are right now and right now I
want the meter to record my usage so I will know how much to pay.
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On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 12:26:48PM +0300, Marty Bluke wrote:
:> I would be happier if PVWC put the meter on a timer and gave me my water
:>  for free on Shabbos. Therefore, helping them bill me is lo nicha lei.

: And I would be happier if when I cut off the chicken's head it wouldn't
: die, but it will...

That establishes that it's a pesiq reishei. Not whether or not nicha lei.
I'm not trying to reclassify it as gerama or anything, just a type of
pesiq reishei that many permit.

If you agree that it's pesiq reishei delo nicha lei (PRDNL), then if we
determine that the effect on the meter is derabbanan, many acharonim
(R YE Spektor, ROY) would permit it. Others, like the MB, would only
permit a PRDNL to avoid a double-derabbanan (eg: catching a bug that
isn't normally caught in something so big you still have to corner it
to take it out of the trap). Which the meter might also qualify as.

In my case, PVWC's meter is mechanical. In many other homes, the meter
has no display, only a jack for the meter reader, some use wireless so
that the reader doesn't even have to enter your home. In which case,
there is no issur to avoid.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

This year, I had trouble understanding why meat should be forbidden,
given that the fast was already Nidche. The Mishna B'rura points to a
Tshuva from the Maharil. I understand that the Arizal, and Sefardi
Poskim do permit it.

I thought that perhaps it was because when a fast is associated with
T'shuva, that there is an inyan to also "complete" the fast so to
speak with an act of mourning, including not having meat after such a
fast. I didn't think that Tisha B'Av was one of those typical fasts as
it also has the aspect of a Moed.

I spoke with a Rav, and he told me that R' Soloveitchik had written
something about Aninus of a Cohen Gadol based on a Rambam, and it was
perhaps on this basis that we don't eat meat even after Tisha B'Av
that was Nidche.

Can anyone enlighten me further?

On Wed, Aug 1, 2012 at 1:14 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:
>
> In my case, PVWC's meter is mechanical. In many other homes, the meter
> has no display, only a jack for the meter reader, some use wireless so
> that the reader doesn't even have to enter your home. In which case,
> there is no issur to avoid.


Wouldn't your argument be stronger if you argued that the Lo Nicha Lei is
the type of meter that they use? They could use a non-assur meter, which
you would prefer, but instead, they are choosing to use the assur kind.

Kol Tuv,
Liron
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On 8/1/2012 4:26 AM, Marty Bluke wrote:
> R' Micha Berger wrote:
> "I would be happier if PVWC put the meter on a timer and gave me my 
> water for free on Shabbos. Therefore, helping them bill me is lo nicha 
> lei."
>
> And I would be happier if when I cut off the chicken's head it 
> wouldn't die, but it will.

Would you really?  I think not.  You want the chicken to be dead.

> The same thing applies here, the water company is billing me for usage 
> and when I turn on the faucet the meter will record my usage on 
> Shabbos. When I come to turn on the water faucet on Shabbos, we can't 
> deal with hypotheticals but the facts as they are right now and right 
> now I want the meter to record my usage so I will know how much to pay.

If I'm not mistaken, when we entered Kenaan, Yehoshua made us accept 
certain rules.  One of them was that water was no one's property.  So 
I'm not sure that paying for water is anything but an undesirable necessity.

Lisa

On Mon, Aug 01, 2011 (a year ago) at 4:55pm -0400, I wrote:
: It seems that in the Y-mi, shikhrur avadim is a good thing. See Pesachim
: 2:2, vilna 15a. There is a mishnah that says that a Jew who uses chameitz
: as collateral for Pesach to secure a loan from a non-Jew may not use
: the chameitz after Pesach. Collateral does not sufficiently remove it
: from his reshus, and so he violated bal yeira'eh.
:
: However, when it comes to freeing an eved, Rav says either the owner or
: the lender could free the eved, and R' Yochanan holds only the owner. So,
: the gemara cites that mishnah as a question on Rav. R' Yudan [ie Yehudah]
: answers that "qal hu beshikhrur". And he quotes another mishnah: Someone
: who makes his slave a security -- if [the borrower] sells him, he is
: not sold, if he frees him, the [slave] is not freed.
:
: Freeing a slave is a value which motivates a qulah.

Zev expressed surprise, that we could have a machloqes so broad as the Bavli
only permitting shikhrur to enable some other mitzvah to the Y-mi considering
it a positive thing that force qulos elsewhere. So I followed up the next day.

On Tue, Aug 02, 2011 at 09:15:25AM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
:                 As the Qorban haEdah (d"h "qal hu beshikhrur") "hiqhilu
: chakhamim beshikhrur, daa"p delo shelo hu legamrei..." And the Penei Moshe
: (same d"h), "... shani beshikhrur" -- note, "shani", an exception --
: "shehiqilu bo ..."

Well, thanks to a lot of traffic this morning, I'm on Sunday's daf, Y-mi
Yevamos 64. The mishnah (11:6, on amud a) discusses the case of two men
who were possibly switched as babies, one is a kohein, the other an eved
(ben shifchah) and we don't know which is which. So, the mishnah says that
when they grow up, "vesheyishachru zeh es zeh", then a whole list of things
apply to them -- both can only marry women re'uyos lekehunah, can't be
tamei meis... A list of conclusions based on safeiq deOraisa lechumerah and
hamotzi meichaveiro alav hara'ayah (bedi'eved, you can't take the matanos
away).

Really, only the kohein frees the eved. When they do the same gestures
in reverse, it's just a meaningless act. But we can't know which shichrur
is real, so we do both.

The gemara opens asking from the word "vesheyishachru" which seems to
imply only bedi'eved. If they did this, then the rest of the mishnah
applies. In reply, "Kini masnisa, mutar leshachreir betechilah". And
even R' Yosi haGelili, who holds asur lashachreir, would agree here
because simplifying this mess is sufficient reason to permit shichrur.

So it seems that in EY rov do hold it's (at least) mutar to free an eved.
Whereas the Bavli holds like R' Yosi haGelili.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Education is not the filling of a bucket,
mi...@aishdas.org        but the lighting of a fire.
http://www.aishdas.org                - W.B. Yeats
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Micha: "Why are we knocking it (Daf Yomi)  without the facilities to
put in a better replacement? We don't even have an agreed upon proposal
of what that replacement would look like".

The replacement has been around, serving precisely this function, for
over 900 years. The Great Talmud Digest produced by the last Gaon with
the authority to canonize such an abridgment- The Rif.

Only in recent generations, when learned magidey shiurim decided that's
what's good for them is good even for non-Yeshivah learning, and when
egalitarian educators assumed that the matrix text of Torah creativity-
the Talmud- is to be made available not only to Torah producers, but to
Torah consumers at all levels as well, has the Talmud become an item of
mass consumption.

We know that the Rambam taught his students Rif, and recommended it to
others, so one can understand his intention of the abovementioned final
third element of the learning day- not "analysis" rather "deduction
from scripture (and primary sources) towards Halakha" (MT Talmud Torah
I 11). This is exactly the abridgement formula in Rif: deduction without
dialectics.

Myself included, many who are about to conclude the Daf Yomi cycle have a
feeling of dissatisfaction, not of "zero understanding", but of near-zero
retention and a low level of internalization.

The dialectic element of the Talmud Bavli is what makes it the matrix
text of Torah creativity. But the minute we left the Yeshiva we became
Torah consumers, much less than Torah producers. This dialectic element
impedes the consumption of Talmud. It's simply more difficult to remember
and internalize multi-optional analysis. The Rif was developed to maintain
extensive, high level Talmud retention for laymen with limited time for
study. Today's "commuter Talmudists" could benefit from the Rif, the
"home version" of the Talmud, as well as our ancestors did. In the same
time and effort to learn one cycle of Talmud one can learn four cycles
of Rif. With more, shorter cycles, the retention improves progressively.
As for the subjects lost in the abridgements, the Talmud Bavli is also
far short of the Complete Torah that can be attained only by learning
Mishnah or Rambam. As for Aggadah, there is a minhag to learn Rif during
the week and supplement it with Ein Yakov on Shabbat (when there is no
access to the on-line Rif sites anyway).

Dr. Ezra Chwat
The Department of Manuscripts/
National Library of Israel
blog: Giluy Milta B'Alma: http://imhm.blogspot.com

On Wed, Aug 01, 2012 at 03:56:05PM +0300, Ezra Chwat wrote:
: The replacement has been around, serving precisely this function, for
: over 900 years. The Great Talmud Digest produced by the last Gaon with
: the authority to canonize such an abridgment- The Rif.

I don't know of anyone learning Rif Yomi. And while it's a logical
alternative, I don't see gemara-stripped-of-"lomdus" (shaqla vetarya)
successfully catching on to the scale Daf Yomi has.

: Only in recent generations, when learned magidey shiurim decided that's
: what's good for them is good even for non-Yeshivah learning, and when
: egalitarian educators assumed that the matrix text of Torah creativity-
: the Talmud- is to be made available not only to Torah producers, but to
: Torah consumers at all levels as well, has the Talmud become an item of
: mass consumption.

It's also because of universal education, the upsurge in people who at
least one time knew had to "make a leining", and their learning that
analysis can be fun.

: Myself included, many who are about to conclude the Daf Yomi cycle have a
: feeling of dissatisfaction, not of "zero understanding", but of near-zero
: retention and a low level of internalization.

There is also another element. Aside from what is learned, the quality
of learning and the quality of retention, there is the experience of
daf yomi which puts a more religious spin to the entire day. As well
as the experience of seeing a 7.5 yr project through to completion,
an excercize in religious commitment.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

IMHO no, but the tradeoff is you get a lot of people who wouldn't dedicate
the time to limud hatorah to do so, and it is perceived by the
olam/gedolim/whatever  that the trade off in some people not learning what
could be more beneficial (either practically<halacha lmaaseh> or in
terms of skills<tools of gemara learning in some greater depth>) is
worthwhile.  BTW one might argue that the schar for limmud is simply hours
spent (e.g. I shouldn't speed up the shiurim mp3's so I can listen to more
of them because it's only how long I listen that "counts") and so the daf
would be  a loss only for those who would learn for more hours without it.

KT
Joel Rich

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I needed to edit the other RMB's post, but now, for some reason, the
modified post wouldn't rach the server. So I'm trying this.

-micha

----- Forwarded message from Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com> -----
Date: Wed, 1 Aug 2012 15:48:29 +0300
From: Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] If you have an electronic water meter, can you turn on
        your faucet on Shabbos?
To: The Avodah Torah Discussion Group <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>

R' Liron Kopinsky wrote:  
> Wouldn't your argument be stronger if you argued that the Lo Nicha Lei is
> the type of meter that they use? They could use a non-assur meter, which
> you would prefer, but instead, they are choosing to use the assur kind.

I don't see how that factors into the equation when you turn the water
on on shabbos. Lo Nicha Lei is not in the abstract but applies to the
specific action that you are doing in the current situation. When you
go to turn on the water, the water meter is already in place, we have
to judge your action based on that reality not an alternative reality
where the water company installed a mechanical meter or didn't measure
your use at all. The bottom line is do you want the water meter that
is already installed to record your usage? IIMHO the answer is yes,
because otherwise you have way of paying the water bill.


R' Micha Berger wrote:
>:> I would be happier if PVWC put the meter on a timer and gave me my water
>:>  for free on Shabbos. Therefore, helping them bill me is lo nicha lei.

I replied:
>: And I would be happier if when I cut off the chicken's head it wouldn't
>: die, but it will...

R' Micha Berger replied:
> That establishes that it's a pesiq reishei. Not whether or not nicha lei.
> I'm not trying to reclassify it as gerama or anything, just a type of
> pesiq reishei that many permit.

You are right, but you can't make it lo nicha lei by imagining an
alternate reality where the water company gives you free water. When
you go to turn on the water you have to deal with the current reality
which is that there is an electronic meter which will record your usage
and the water company bills based on usage. Is that nicha or lo nicha
lei? I am saying nicha because if it doesn't record then you can't pay
the bill correctly.


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