Avodah Mailing List

Volume 30: Number 72

Sun, 24 Jun 2012

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:10:28 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] whats a city


<< If you're going to walls at some historical point in the past, what
would be the sevara for an alternative to those at the time of kibush
haaretz under Yehoshua bin Nun? >>

Passing the buck - the article just cites R. Tukashinsky  Ir Hakoseh
Vehamikdash vol 3 p420
See also CI OC 153 who has an extended discussion of what happens if the
suburb has new houses near the "crach" or had housing destroyed. He claims
that in fact this happened outside of Teveryah between the days of the
Tanaim and the days of the Amoraim.

-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120623/7de0b81c/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 2
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toram...@bezeqint.net>
Date: Sat, 23 Jun 2012 23:43:17 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] Avodat HaMidot


R' Micha Berger writes [to Areivim]:
> It also incredibly strengthens my "Watering the Weeds" essay / 
> diatribe <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/WateringTheWeeds.pdf> in which I 
> argue that if our community isn't statistically showing better 
> morality and ethics than parallel populations who follow something 
> other than the Emes, it shows that not enough of us are doing Torah 
> right. And then I invoke Rava, the Gra and Nefesh haChaim who point to 
> what it is we could be doing wrong -- despite our meticulous observance.

Thank you for a wonderful article.

At this point, I must add that I think that the source of my response
and reaction is the fact that I live in Eretz Yisrael. Rav Tau wrote a
book called "Nossei Alumotav" on the importance of agriculture in Israel
as part of our Avodat Hashem.

I found RMB's continual usage of agricultural metaphors to illustrate
what he wishes to express, to completely compliment this book.

Recently, when I spoke of Achdut Yisrael someone disparaged the idea as
though it had no value. But following the line of thought presented in R'
Micha's article and the view of Rav Tau and Rav Kook on the importance
of agriculture with regard to the connection between Jews and Torah and
"right living" I would like to bring up a different view of the idea of
Hitbodedut - to go alone to a forest or a desert to meditate on one's
life and situation and attempt to become closer to Hashem.

In the past I always understood the focus of the exercise to be the
individual. They go to the forest or desert to be alone with their
thoughts and Hashem.

But I have since come to realize that this may not be completely true.

When walking through a forest (or desert), a person may do so in two ways:

The first path takes the person into himself, he completely ignores the
world Hashem gave us and the forest he is walking through. The only things
he can learn are what he has already learned - including his mistakes.

The second path leads him to start paying attention to his surroundings.
The path through the forest is soft with leaves and residue of the animals
and vegetation that live in the forest. The trees are surrounded by vines
that lean on them, without the trees, they could not survive. Various
plants grow in the shade of the trees, their existence there the result
of birds who flew through the forest, some staying long enough to build
nests and grow their young. Wolves and other animals roam the forest,
living off the vegetation and other animals. Insects biodegrade the
wastes to create fertilizer for the plants and trees. The trees generate
oxygen. The ground, that is covered in leaves and other remains, acts
as a "water safe" by storing water thus enabling the trees and plants to
survive when there is no rain. The only reason that the forest survives
- is b/c disparate groups, with different needs, abilities, gifts and
lives act on each other and react to each other - no one can survive
alone! While the balance that makes up the forest can be viewed as harsh
and unforgiving, it is also supportive of life and growth.

If walking through the forest you do not see Hashem's gifts, you cannot
grow. But if you see and understand that we are not alone. That we are
supposed to work together, as different as we are, yet accepting of each
other (under Torah) - then you may come back from your Hitbodedut ready
to become a healthy, giving part of your community.

This explains why when studying Torah you are NOT supposed to talk about
the trees: you are not paying attention to the Torah you are learning -
nor are you able to learn the lessons of the nature Hashem gave. You
are worshipping yourself and your personal view of the world. We know
the punishment for Avodah Zara.

I find it interesting that the word "Avodah" has 3 meanings: Avodah -
VeAdam Ayin La'avod Et HaAdama - agriculture; Avodah - Avodat HaKorbanot
and lastly Avodah - Tefilla.

All three are methods by which we are supposed to become closer to Hashem.

Thank you R' Micha.

Shoshana L. Boublil

[P.S. desert: can be created by desertification by which mankind
destroys the nature Hashem created; or by climate change, in which
case the desert is not at all empty, see the Bedouin who live in the
desert. The importance of partnerships is illustrated to Eliyahu HaNavi
by the Orvim who bring him food - he cannot live alone!]





Go to top.

Message: 3
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 03:08:53 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Drops of wine


In Avodah Digest 30:69, in the thread "Translation of Yayyin", R' Zev Sero
wrote his understanding and translation of the phrase "v'nohagim
she-shofchim l'eebood hamakos v'ein shosin osam".

In 30:70, I asked RZS where he got it, and he did explain his translation
at length, adding, "This is poshut and obvious.", "The mistranslation comes
from misparsing the Hebrew, and thinking it's giving a reason rather than
merely an instruction.", "Common idiom."

Is it really such a common idiom? I haven't come across it before, but that
really doesn't mean much. It's apparently pretty common to R"n Lisa Liel,
who wrote, "The words are very clear, and R' Zev is obviously correct.",
and expounded on it even further.

Most recently, in 30:71, we have a three-way discussion between RSZ, RLL, and RMB about many different grammatical ways of parsing the phrase.

All this for a phrase less than 50 years old?

Over Shabbos, I spent some time looking through my Hagada collection, trying to find this "common idiom".

I looked in quite a few Hebrew hagados, searching for the quoted phrase, or
even any form of alef-beis-dalet in connection with the makkos, and never
found it. Not in my hagados, and also not in the main nosei keilim on the
last page of Siman 473 of both Shulchan Aruch and Mishne Brurah.

Maybe it is somewhere else, but the only place I found it was in Rav David
Feinstein's Kol Dodi. And even there, it was not in the Hagada portion, but
in section 11:12 of the halacha portion.

Specifically, it was not in the Hagada portion of the all-Hebrew Hagada Kol
Dodi first printing in 5730 (I have the second edition, from 5734), nor was
it in the ArtScroll Hagada Kol Dodi from 1990, which contained *only* the
Hagada and not the Halacha section. But it does appear in the Halacha
section of his original all-Hebrew work, and it also appears in his "Laws
of the Seder", published in 2000 by ArtScroll, which contained only the
halachos (in both Hebrew and English) without the text or instructions for
the Hagada.

Folks, we seem to be discussing a phrase which was written by an author who
is still among us. (I happened to see R' David at a wedding four days ago.)
In Digest 30:69, in the very first Avodah post in this thread, R' Zvi
Lampel, the translator of the very work we're discussing, already wrote, "I
did not ask Rav Dovid Feinstein about this."

Maybe someone else wants to ask the author?

Or am I totally mistaken, and this phrase does appear elsewhere?

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
53 Year Old Mom Looks 33
The Stunning Results of Her Wrinkle Trick Has Botox Doctors Worried
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4fe6853ccb7859d8b7dst05vuc



Go to top.

Message: 4
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:50:23 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Drops of wine


On 23/06/2012 11:08 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> In 30:70, I asked RZS where he got it, and he did explain[...] "Common idiom."
>
> Is it really such a common idiom? I haven't come across it before, but that
> really doesn't mean much. It's apparently pretty common to R"n Lisa Liel,
> who wrote, "The words are very clear, and R' Zev is obviously correct.",
> and expounded on it even further.
> [...]
> Over Shabbos, I spent some time looking through my Hagada collection,
> trying to find this "common idiom".  I looked in quite a few Hebrew hagados,
> searching for the quoted phrase, or even any form of alef-beis-dalet in
> connection with the makkos, and never found it.

Ah, you're looking for the wrong thing.  Look back at the message you're
quoting from.  The relevant exchange reads, in full:

you: Where do you have "makos" referring to the spilled wine?
me: Common idiom.

So looking for "A-B-D" in connection with the makkos isn't going to
help you.  RDF's phrase as a whole is not an idiom, it's just his way
of writing.  But in that phrase he uses the word "hamakos" in an
idiomatic way that evidently escaped the translator and RMB.  And yes,
it is a common idiom to use the word "makkos" to refer to the wine that
is spilled while listing the (original) makkos.

(This probably came about in exactly the same way that the bundle of
aravos held during the hoshanos of the last day came to be called a
"hoshana", the "monos" used for the mitzvah of "mishloach monos" came
to be called "shalachmonos", the bread from which we take chalah came
to be called "challah" (or in other places the bread on which we say
brochos came to be called "barches"), an only child who is expected
to eventually say kaddish came to be called a "kaddish", the booklet
from which one reads kinnos came to be called a "kinnah", etc.  I'm
sure RSM can supply many more examples, and also a linguistic term for
this process, and perhaps also a list of other languages in which the
same process occurs.)

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



Go to top.

Message: 5
From: David Wacholder <dwachol...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 01:33:51 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Drops of wine - also the Ten Curtain Calls


Groups viciously attacked the Jewish People as being hostile and violent.
Since the Seder is in a sense a victory celebration, it is important to
stress that it is the Victory of Hashem's Glory which we are celebrating.
We proclaim that our motives are not tainted.

What would you choose as the ten main Glorifications of Sheim Hashem in
History - both Past Present and Future?

 ASARAGILUYIM SHEL SOD SHMO  - BRI'AH AD KEITZ HAYAMIN
Ten Curtain Calls SHMO HAGADOL Creation to Ultimate Destination -
From Ha'askula Hapaytanit shel Rav Saadya Gaon p. 222  (Schoken 1964) -

   1. Creation==Yahh - the name with which the world was created - shorened
   name of potential
   2. Lech Lcha ==Eil Elyon - Avram Level One - all belongs to hashem and
   no Dependence - no sroch naal
   3. Vayeira== (K)Eil Sh*adai - Avraham Level Two -= Ani Keil Shad--dai
   Hithalech l'fanay v'hyeh tamim - no need of weapons to protect Avraham
   4. Shmos = Ehkeh Asher Ehkeh - just as he rescued from Mitzraim - so
   other troubles to come - [similar to Rashi -  even Tur OC 5 means this
    IMHO ]
   5. Va'eira - Shmi === lo  noda'ti lahem - Y**H**V**H  written not
   pronounced - merciful IMHO looks at potential rather than present - to take
   out of Mitzrayim - like Father to his son]
   6. Actual expression pronunciation of Hashem's Ineffable Name - Kohein
   Gadol Yom Kippur - loudly say BSKMLV to drown it out - forbidden in Chu"L
   7. E**Lo**him Stone quarried from Justice and measured in Exactitude -
   Payment Assured, Punishment imminent - with which were given Esser  Dibros
   and entire Torah, in order that they should be a Model and have Yir'ah
   8. Midbar - Tva'os - more than the Stars who are Set , more than
   Mal'achim who come and go, TZIVOS YISRAEL CHAVIVIN MIKULAM - Yisrael
   proclaim Hashem's Oneness (iBN Ezra Shmos 3-15 attacks Rav Saadya on this
   one - it is genuine
   9. Kadosh Kadosh Kadosh - Seraphs and Cherubs - and the walls shake -
   and the House fills with Smoke and Fog [Mishkan - or Mikdash ]
   10. Melech Malchei hamelachim - all the kings will bow and subjugate to
   Him - whereas he himself - Ruler Before the World - then at the time the
   World is around - will be Himself even in the Chiddush Renovation of the
   World

Any suggestions for a catchy tune?
May we capture tthe tune of the Battle Hymn of the Republic or is that
forbidden? Has it become Avodah Zarrah Yeshanah?

-- 
David Wacholder
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120624/86a54fd1/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 6
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:19:13 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver?


Please see the ad that appeared in this week's Flatbush Jewish 
Journal 
at  http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/shaver_lakewood.pdf  or 
http://www.flipdocs.com/showbook.aspx?ID=10002477_172527




Go to top.

Message: 7
From: "Joel Schnur" <j...@schnurassociates.com>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:31:41 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver?


When I asked this same shaila of Rav Dovid Bleich well over a decade ago, if
not more, he told me to only use an old time shaver. I keep on refurbishing
the motor in my 25 year old Norelco. :)

-----Original Message-----
From: Prof. Levine [mailto:llev...@stevens.edu] 
Sent: Sunday, June 24, 2012 10:19 AM
To: avo...@aishdas.org
Subject: Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver?

Please see the ad that appeared in this week's Flatbush Jewish Journal at
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/shaver_lakewood.pdf  or
http://www.flipdocs.com/showbook.aspx?ID=10002477_172527




Go to top.

Message: 8
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 09:24:17 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Cheder Study, Knowledge of Torah, and the


Ever wonder how successful Cheder education was in the nineteenth 
century?  Saul Stampfer has dealt with nineteenth century Cheder 
education in his essay with the above title.

It is from the book 
<http://www.amazon.com/Fami
lies-Rabbis-Education-Nineteenth-Century-Civilization/dp/1874774854/ref=sr_
1_2?s=books&;ie=UTF8&qid=1340543903&sr=1-2&keywords=stam
pfer>

<http://www.amazon.com/Fami
lies-Rabbis-Education-Nineteenth-Century-Civilization/dp/1874774854/ref=sr_
1_2?s=books&;ie=UTF8&qid=1340543903&sr=1-2&keywords=stam
pfer>Families, 
Rabbis, and Education: Traditional Jewish Society in 
Nineteenth-Century Eastern Europe (Littman Library of Jewish 
Civilization) by 
<http://www.amazon.com/Shaul-Stampfer/e/B001JWTLAS/re
f=sr_ntt_srch_lnk_2?qid=1340543903&;sr=1-2>Shaul 
Stampfer (Feb 18, 2010)  See http://tinyurl.com/7utjc4p

Below are a few excerpts.  I found the entire essay fascinating, 
because it is not at all in consonance with what is often depicted 
regarding Torah education and study in eastern Europe during the 
nineteenth century.  Note footnote [41] below regarding Artscroll.   YL

Writing was not taught in the early nineteenth-century east European cheder,
though it had been standard in Jewish elementary education earlier.

In the Talmud Cheder students were introduced to the study of
Talmud in the same way they began with the Pentateuch. The
teacher simply began with a typical talmudic text, translating it
word by word until the students 'picked up' both the idiom and 
thought patterns.

There was no formal cut-off point for study in the Talmud cheder. It was
generally accepted that at about barmitzvah age, or shortly thereafter,
most students would leave the Talmud cheder. This was not related to 
the barmitzvah
ceremony and it was not the result of legislation or religious law, but
a matter of simple economics. As is clear, there was no direct or clear link
between the programme of study and the future economic activities of the
pupil. The only useful skill learned in cheder-reading-was learned first. At
the age of 3 most boys were responsible and developed enough to begin to
work and to contribute to the family income, or to begin an apprenticeship
(formal or informal) in order to prepare for the economic responsibilities of
adulthood. The only reason that would justify continued Talmud study was if
there was a good chance of ending up as a scholar. For those who would not
become scholars, to delay work meant loss of income and putting of the start
of an apprenticeship. Such a youth would remain dependent on his parents
longer and for little measurable benefit. For reasons that will be clarified
below it was clear to most 13-year-old boys-and their parents-that they
would never be scholars. Therefore most families found that it was logical to
end a son's cheder education at around the age of I 3, when he was 
old enough to
begin preparation for practical life.

Most young men were incapable of independent Talmud study because of
the cheder system-just as the brilliant achievements of the intellectual elite
can be credited to the cheder system.

Even if most pupils did not realize it, cheder education was a race against
time because the cheder was usually followed by the beit midrash. 
Study there, as
noted above, was independent--without teachers or structured guidance-and
the communal support was predicated on the fact that the beit midrash
student was a fully fledged independent Torah scholar. This meant that the
entering student had to be able to study the Talmud and the complex literature
of talmudic commentaries on his own. This was no small achievement
for a 13-year-old. Given the realities of cheder study noted above, 
it was impossible
for most children to reach this level by the age of 13, or to continue in
order to reach it at a later age.

If the function of the Talmud Cheder was to bring the student to the point
where he could study Talmud on his own, then the cheder was not a very
successful institution. But it was not alone in its ineffectiveness. The Jewish
community as a whole did not do as much as it could to spread knowledge of
the Talmud despite all of the talk about the importance of Torah study. Very
simple steps could have been taken that would have dramatically increased
knowledge and understanding. Surprisingly, tools such as Aramaic-Yiddish
dictionaries, or an extensive Talmud commentary in Yiddish or even Hebrew,
did not exist, even though they would have been of great aid to students. It
certainly would not have been difficult to produce such books. Even classical
talmudic dictionaries in Hebrew, such as the Arukh, were not generally
available. [41] The results were clear. The majority of Jews, such as 
the pedlars,
shoemakers, and tailors, could not study a page of Talmud on their own. They
were pious, they said their psalms, they went to hear the midrashic sermons
on Saturday afternoons in the synagogues, but they were not themselves
learned.


[41]  The contemporary phenomenon of Talmud commentaries, such as 
that of Rabbi Steinsaltz
or the Artscroll commentaries which are in the vernacular and which 
require no major
investment of effort to understand, did not have an equivalent in 
eastern Europe. This was not
because of any inability to write such a commentary or lack of 
printing shops to print one. Popularization
of the Talmud or making it more accessible went against the grain of 
traditional Jewish
society. It will be interesting to see what the long-term impact of 
these commentaries will
be - whether they will spread knowledge or lead to functional 
illiteracy in Hebrew and Aramaic.



-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120624/913316ce/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 9
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:56:51 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver?


On 24/06/2012 10:19 AM, Prof. Levine wrote:
> Please see the ad that appeared in this week's Flatbush Jewish Journal
> at http:/
> /www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/shaver_lakewood.pdf  or http:/
> /www.flipdocs.com/showbook.aspx?ID=10002477_172527

The Star-K has been giving hechsherim on shavers for decades.  I don't
see anything new in this ad, just a reminder for those who seem to think
the mere involvement of electricity conveys a heter.

-- 
Zev Sero        "Natural resources are not finite in any meaningful
z...@sero.name    economic sense, mind-boggling though this assertion
                  may be. The stocks of them are not fixed but rather
                 are expanding through human ingenuity."
                                            - Julian Simon



Go to top.

Message: 10
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 13:07:57 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] More on Is It Forbidden to Use an Electric Shaver?


From 
<http://www.star
-k.com/kashrus/kk-mitzvos-shavers.htm>http://www.star
-k.com/kashrus/kk-mitzvos-shavers.htm 


How would the electric shaver fare in the kosher shaving arena?  The 
electric shaver is a relatively recent introduction to the shaving 
scene.  Prior to the shaver, the only practical method of kosher 
beard removal was the use of shaving powder.  The powder was mixed 
with water and made a very offensive smelling paste that was spread 
on one's face and ate away the person's facial hair. One had to be 
careful to remove the paste in haste so that only facial hair, and 
not facial skin, would be removed.

The electric shaver seemed to be a welcome technical halachic 
introduction, although shaving in general has not been without 
controversy.  However, those halachic authorities that permitted 
shaving with electric shavers did so because it seemed to fulfill all 
halachic requirements.  The shaver was made up of a vibrating head 
and screen, with the beard hair passed between the cutting edges of 
the screen and the vibrating head; the hair is cut off in a 
scissor-like cutting fashion between head and screen.  The shave was 
closer than manual scissors, since the shaver cut the beard close to 
the skin, yet it never effectively gave a smooth shave because they 
were not as powerful as they are today.

As shavers became more sophisticated, they also became more 
halachically challenging.  With some models, the stronger motors made 
the head vibrate faster and cut the beard closer.  The lift and cut 
shaving systems that evolved from the older Norelco Triplehead system 
claimed that they could shave as close as a razor. As the skin was 
held taut, the shaver alleged to cut the beard below the skin like a 
razor.  Although shaving professionals will admit that the closeness 
of one's shave depends upon a person's beard conditions and texture, 
realistically, the system works better in theory than in practice.

<Snip>

Hagaon R' Moshe Feinstein, ZT"L , who permitted the use of electric 
shavers used a criteria similar to the shochet who would demonstrate 
how sharp his (shechita knife) was.  To show the sharp edge of his 
knife, a shochet would take a hair from his beard, and holding the 
hair in one hand the shochet would see whether the cut the dangling 
hair.  If the hair was severed, the shochet's steel passed the test.

So too, in a similar manner, R' Moshe would often test the sharpness 
of an electric shaver's blades.  He would take a beard hair and test 
the blades!  The shaver would be acceptable if the hair was held taut 
and was not split in half.

The only practical suggestion that can be given to one whose shaver 
failed this test is to dull the blades.   This can be done by taking 
a key or some other hard, flat instrument and running it along the 
sharp edge of the blade.  Obviously, this shaver will not work as 
well; nevertheless, it is still effective and will transform a 
previously questionable shaver into one that is acceptable by the 
Poskim who permit the use of shavers.

See the above URL for more. YL




-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20120624/57f9feec/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 11
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:50:29 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Drops of wine


On 6/23/2012 10:08 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> Folks, we seem to be discussing a phrase which was written by an
> author who is still among us. (I happened to see R' David at a wedding
> four days ago.) In Digest 30:69, in the very first Avodah post in this
> thread, R' Zvi Lampel, the translator of the very work we're
> discussing, already wrote, "I did not ask Rav Dovid Feinstein about
> this."
>
> Maybe someone else wants to ask the author?
>    
I've never seen it as common idiom.  That wasn't what I was referring to 
when I agreed with R' Zev.  But it clearly does refer to that in this 
context.

But I also agree that arguing about this when there are people who know 
the author and can ask him is awfully silly.

Lisa



Go to top.

Message: 12
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Sun, 24 Jun 2012 11:51:40 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Drops of wine - also the Ten Curtain Calls


On 6/24/2012 12:33 AM, David Wacholder wrote:
> Groups viciously attacked the Jewish People as being hostile and 
> violent. Since the Seder is in a sense a victory celebration, it is 
> important to stress that it is the Victory of Hashem's Glory which we 
> are celebrating. We proclaim that our motives are not tainted.

Are you suggesting that hostility and violence are *always* tainted?  If 
so, I have to disagree.

Lisa


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 30, Issue 72
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


< Previous Next >