Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 205

Mon, 10 Oct 2011

• 1. Re: fasting/tfila/tshuva (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 2. Re: tefillin on second day yomtov (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: Beis Shammai vs Beis Hillel, general approaches (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Evolution, Hashgachah and Tehillah (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: national flag??? (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Malachim and mistakes (Prof. Levine)
• 7. Re: : Re: Brisker Chumeros and Shammuti Chumeros (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: Question for Gerim or those who teach them (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: fasting/tfila/tshuva (Zev Sero)
• 10. Re: Malachim & mistakes (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Palm Fronds Harder to Find for Sukkot (Dov Weinstock)
• 12. From the cRc regarding schach (Dorron Katzin)
• 13. Re: Malachim & mistakes (Zev Sero)
• 14. rules (Harvey Benton)
• 15. Re: Question for Gerim or those who teach them (Yitzchak Schaffer)

R' Saul Newman asked:

> it is clear that the chiyuv of YK is such that given the ability
> to either pray or fast [ ie one will eg be reduced to spending
> the fast laying in bed], one must fast.
> while clearly this is the chiyuv hayom,  what has the individual
> accomplished when he has spent  the time conceivably incoherent,
> neither confessing his sins , nor  inspired to tshuva. is
> somehow the koach of this inui nefesh a replacement for tshuva?

Two answers:

(1) No, the inui is not a replacement for tshuva. But it is difficult for
me to imagine that the person you describe would be totally unable to do
any teshuva/praying whatsoever. I imagine that he would certainly be able
to do at least a small amount of praying and tshuva at the very beginning
of Yom Kippur, before he begins to be hungry. Thus, your question -- which
is framed as an "either/or" situation -- does not really exist. The actual
choices are (a) doing a totally proper fast accompanied by a minimal amount
of teshuva/prayer, or (b) violating the fast in order to spend most or all
of the day in teshuva and prayer. When framed in this manner, it is simple
to me that "a" is proper and "b" is not.

(2) You ask what this person has accomplished. I've seen many divrei Torah
explain that this was precisely Yonah's error: Asking what his mission to
Ninveh would accomplish. He knew it would make the Jews look very bad, and
tried to avoid his mission. And so, they say, a message of Sefer Yonah is
to just do what we've been told, and not try to second-guess Hashem about
the ramifications. I would add that we must not act recklessly, and that
considering the ramifications is indeed a good thing, and it will help us
decide which route is better when *both* are within halacha. But if one is
within halacha and the other is not, then that is when worrying about the
ramifications becomes improper. For a practical example, see paragraph (1),
above.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
57-Year-Old Mom Looks 25
Mom Reveals Free Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3131/4e930924b5eaa93ed87st06vuc

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 3:32 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
>> My feeling is that Israeli poskim (even including the Eda Hacharedit) tend
>> to be more mekil about considering a tourist as an Israeli for second day
>> yomtov if there is some evidence that links them to EY.
>> OTOH American poskim tend to be more machmir...

> I was told that the Brisker Rov, Reb Velvel, held two days Yom Tov while
> living in Jerusalem because of sofek!  Can anyone verify this? YL

Rumor has it that both the Brisker Ran and CI kept 2 days le-chumra.
However, as far as I know the reason was not safek but rather the Rambam
that paskens that 1 day only holds for those communities that the messengers
actually reached. Since Bnei Brak and Meah Shearim did not exist in the days
of the Temple they held 2 days.

Nevertheless, it was kept quiet as it was their personal chumra and not
meant for the public

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 05:01:12PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> What kabbalah is this?  Do you have a source for it?

I think I already mentioned the Maharal. To be more specific, his
comment is made on Avos 1:12.

It comes up also in Sefer haDoros vol II, entry "Shammai".

Mikhtav meiEliyahu III pg 353.

It's also in the Noam Elimelekh, but I don't have an exact citation.

All relate it to the tradition from the Ari za"l that le'asid lavo we
will hold like Beis Shammai and Rashbi" (recorded in Vayaqhel Moshe 42b).
That le'asid lavo, we will be able to live up to the rigors of din,
and therefore we will become Shammutim. Note that this does not require
a fundamental change in halachic process, if we assume that a future
Sanhadrin will be sufficiently gadol bechokhmah uveminyan to overturn
the votes made at the end of bayis sheini in which BH held the majority.

But what I don't understand is how one can simultaneously also hold
like the Rashbi, a talmid of R' Aqiva, whose rabbeim were R' Eliezer
ben Hurkenus and R' Yehoshua ben Chanania, who learned under R' Yochanan
ben Zakkai who learned under Hillel.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             For a mitzvah is a lamp,
mi...@aishdas.org        And the Torah, its light.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - based on Mishlei 6:2
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Oct 03, 2011 at 07:21:55PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
>> Is "mazal" chance? We know that belief in astrology and knowledge that
>> the stars move in predictable ways, and in particular, that the
>> mazalos move together, coexisted. I would therefore think that the concept
>> of "mazal" is more tied to fate and predestination, a mechanical and
>> deterministic view of the forces of the universe.

> I don't see a distinction, really.  Whatever the mechanics of the  
> universe itself are.  If it's chance, if it's fate... whichever it is  
> without hashgacha pratit.

We were discussing the randomness of evolution. If mazal isn't random,
it's less of a precedent concept.

In particular, I was arguing that "random" means that you can't predict
any particular instance's outcome based solely on empirical causality.
And thus, if HQBH were to guide evolution through deciding when and which
mutations occur, as long as they conformed to the overall statistics
science can predict, they would still be "random" in any scientific
usage of the term.

But if mazal meant "random", then "ein mazalos leYisrael" presents mazal
as an alternative to hashgachah. Which wouldn't fit my above model.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             People were created to be loved.
mi...@aishdas.org        Things were created to be used.
http://www.aishdas.org   The reason why the world is in chaos is that
Fax: (270) 514-1507      things are being loved, people are being used.

On Fri, Oct 07, 2011 at 10:51:32AM -0400, Joel C. Salomon wrote:
: A flag is a sheet of fabric; a standard is a more general word.  The
: nechash nechoshes was probably something like the later Roman Aquila
: standard; see <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aquila_(Roman)>

Wow, this was still sitting in my outbox. Well, now that the discussion
is over and we aren't using these terms anymore, I am still going to
send out this backgrounder on the English terms related neis and degel.

I gave a more full answer to enough people off list, as I think it's
off topic, so finally realize an explanation is necessary before any
on-topic discussion will go anywhere.

A "device" is the 3D thing that would decorate the top of a pole.

A "standard" is a pole with a device atop it. I agree with RJVS that
the nechash nechoshes is described in the chumash as a standard.

If you take a standard and add a cross-bar holding up a cloth so that the
cloth hangs on either of the original upright pole, you have a vexillum.

A flag is a rectangle that hangs on one side of the pole, and doesn't
necessarily have a device atop the flagpole. A pannon or pannant, is
like a flag, but triangular. They actually gained popularity during the
Middle Ages before the flag.

The general term for cloth on a pole is a vexilloid (meaning: vexillum-ish).

Last, all of these are instances of social technology, even if they
aren't high tech.

Now the question more appropiate for this forum is how to divide this
same space in Tanakhi Hebrew.

GCT!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You will never "find" time for anything.
mi...@aishdas.org        If you want time, you must make it.
http://www.aishdas.org                     - Charles Buxton
Fax: (270) 514-1507

At 12:09 PM 10/10/2011, Yosef Skolnick wrote:
>To which they respond: You don't understand the torah with the 
>requisite depth.... Tos may have used pathagareon theorums from the 
>greeks or they could have derived it from the hilchos of how a 
>sukkah works.  It is not so unreasonable to think that if the greeks 
>figured it out then so could we at some point.

Deriving it from the halachos of how a sukkah works and finding  it 
in the Torah are two very different things IMO.  Indeed, one can 
figure out the Pythagorean Theorem from studying geometric figures 
that are not succos.
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On 9/10/2011 5:18 PM, Chana Luntz wrote:
> Problem I am having with all of this is the explicit Rema in Orech Chaim
> siman 596 si'if 1 "there are places which have the custom to return and to
> blow thirty blasts ... and after one has been yotze with this *shuv ain
> l'tokeia od bechinam* [but a katan even if he has reached chinuch it is
> permitted to tell him to blow, and it is permitted for him all the day]."
> And as you can see from the Magen Avraham, the statement shuv ain l'tokeia
> od bechinam is because of a shvus d'rabbanan.  And while yes, the Taz does
> appear to allow blowing after one is definitely yotzei (he does not
> understand the shvus as applying on a regular yom tov that is not shabbas)-
> so they have on whom to rely, it seems really very odd to me that people
> should be doing things "beyond even a chumra" or to be "yozeh all the
> rejected shitos" when by doing so one would seem to be over on a d'rabbanan
> according to what seems to be if anything the majority opinion.  Ie if there
> is a real genuine safek, then OK, that is not *bechinam*  (although by
> allowing the extra 30 but no more, the Rema seems to be ruling this out),
> but if one acknowledges that there is no real genuine safek, then these
> blowings would seem by definition to be perilously close to tokeia bechinam,
> meaning one is being makil in a d'rabbanan.  What am I missing here?

IMHO the "thirty extra kolot" doesn't mean davka thirty, but whatever
the minhag is.  Only after the local minhag has been fulfilled, and
there are no more tekiot shel mitzvah, and now someone wants to blow
just stam because he likes blowing, or because it's a seasonal sound,
shelo leshem mitzvah klal, that is not allowed.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On 10/10/2011 10:19 AM, Chana Luntz wrote:
> When somebody is becoming a ger, ie in the period between having decided
> to pursue conversion, and the actual mila/tevila, is one encouraged/taught to:
>
> a) Notsay brochos (while presumably being taught when to and what to say
> in preparation for the occurrence of the conversion)?
>
> b) Say brochos without shem and malchus?
>
> c) Say brochosin their entirety(presumably mishum chinuch)?
>
> Is a distinction made between  brochos over mitzvos and other forms of
> brocha (ie nehnin, shevach)?  How about matters such as Kiddush and
> havdala?

Behashgacha pratit as I read this there is a ger in the room with me,
so I asked him.  He was taught to say all the brachot exactly as he
would say them after.   As far as kiddush and havdalah, he would hear
them from other people.

Legufo shel inyan, I can see why you would have a question about birkot
hamitzvot, but I don't understand why birchot hanehenin or shevach would
even be a question; even if a nochri has no intention of converting, why
should he not say brachot?  Surely he too is obligated to thank and
praise Hashem for all the good that He does.


-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On 10/10/2011 12:38 AM, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
> while clearly this is the chiyuv hayom,  what has the individual
> accomplished when he has spent  the time conceivably incoherent,
> neither confessing his sins , nor  inspired to tshuva. is somehow
> the koach of this inui nefesh a replacement for tshuva?

He has given up his teshuvah for Hashem.  The halacha told him not to
do teshuvah, so he obeyed with kabalat ol.  What greater zechut can
there be than this?

Also, Rebbi holds that itzumo shel yom mechaper.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

On Sun, Oct 09, 2011 at 03:28:42PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> "Istakel be'oraisa uvera alma".  Therefore everything in the world must
> be in the Torah.

Doesn't it only require that everything in the world was made to conform
to the Torah? What if there are multiple ways to provide a world in which
the Torah's ideals can be implemented? Wouldn't that require "symmetry
breaking" (a term I'm only loosely borrowing from quantum cosmogony)
where HQBH chose version A over B for reasons not in His Torah?

I'm reminded of the Rambam's explanation in MN 3:26:
    Those who believe that these detailed rules originate in a certain
    cause, are as far from the truth as those who assume that the whole
    law is useless. You must know that Divine Wisdom demanded it -- or,
    if you prefer, say that circumstances made it necessary -- that
    there should be parts [of His work] which have no certain object:
    and as regards the Law, it appears to be impossible that it should
    not include some matter of this kind. That it cannot be avoided
    may be seen from the following instance. You ask why must a lamb be
    sacrificed and not a ram? but the same question would be asked, why
    a ram had been commanded instead of a lamb, so long as one particular
    kind is required. The same is to be said as to the question why were
    seven lambs sacrificed and not eight; the same question might have
    been asked if there were eight, ten, or twenty lambs, so long as some
    definite number of lambs were sacrificed. It is almost similar to the
    nature of a thing which can receive different forms, but actually
    receives one of them. We must not ask why it has this form and not
    another which is likewise possible, because we should have to ask
    the same question if instead of its actual form the thing had any of
    the other possible forms. Note this, and understand it. The repeated
    assertion of our Sages that there are reasons for all commandments,
    and the tradition that Solomon knew them, refer to the general
    purpose of the commandments, and not to the object of every detail.

"You ask why must a lamb be sacrificed and not a ram? but the same
question would be asked, why a ram had been commanded instead of a
lamb..." And similarly one might ask why there are 4 fundamental forces
(assuming current theory is correct) rather than 3 or 5 -- "there [are]
be parts [of His work] which have no certain object".

I'm not saying I personally am at home with the Rambam's shitah. Just
raising it and the parallel for discussion.



Another problem is just defining the word Torah -- do we mean the Infinite
Daas of the Borei, the full potential of what Hashem gave us, that which
people are capable of extracting from what He gave us, or something else?
(I assume we'll all agree we don't mean the words in a seifer Torah
without even any TSBP, since neither the Pythagorian Thm nor the Law
of Coservation of Matter-Energy are in TSBK. But that too is a valid
translation of the word "Torah".)

The further down we descend the scale between Divine Thought and that
which people can understand of what He revealed of His Thought, the
harder it is to take "everything is in the Torah" literally. Which I think
is the thrust of what RDE remembers RSF answering him, as per R
Daniel Eidensohn's post of 7:56pm EDT yesterday:
> I once asked this question to Rabbi Freifeld - he responded, "Everything
> is in the Torah but there is no one today who can find everything in it."

On Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 03:18:00PM +0200, R Doron Beckerman wrote:
: Funny you should bring that example up, and right before Succos.  The
: concept  can be derived from Tosafos Succah 8a s.v. kol amsa.

(1st, I think RDB needs to sleep more. Posting at 3:18am???? But back
on subject...)

I agree with those who suggested that Tosafos don't provide an example,
as they knew Greek math. Who says they found it in the Torah? There is
also a second problem with using the gemara they're analyzing ("kol
amsa bribua', amsa uterei chumshei be'alakhsonah")... Knowing the
specific right triangle with sides proportional to 1, 1, appx 1-2/5,
is different than knowing the general formula for all right triangles
that Pythagoras gave. But shas too post-dates Pythagoras by centuries.



While we're open to that amud, I'm more impressed with the proto-calculus
in the previous Tosafos, in their proof that the area of a circle is
pi * r ^ 2. (See also my hesped for R Dr Eliezer/Leon Ehrenpreis, where
I open describing my first-impression of REE -- his using this Tosafos
to open the teaching of calculus. I give the proof in English.
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2010/08/r-dr-eliezer-ehrenpreis-zl.shtml>)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I slept and dreamt that life was joy.
mi...@aishdas.org        I awoke and found that life was duty.
http://www.aishdas.org   I worked and, behold -- duty is joy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Rabindranath Tagore

RTK - I sympathize with your husband's situation, but having entered into an
agreement with customers in which he knowingly took on risk (despite his
having thought that the risk was small), what possible justification is
there for reneging on that agreement?
Perhaps he could suggest a voluntary payment. After all, I am sure his
customers would be sympathetic and would want to support the store - and $5
extra each seems like a small price to pay.

Dov Weinstock   

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: Chicago Rabbinical Council <ale...@crcweb.org>
Date: Mon, Oct 10, 2011 at 16:45
Subject: cRc kashrus Alert


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*October 10, 2011*

*In response to numerous consumer enquiries regarding the use of certain
types of schach, this year, the Home Depot store located at 6211 N. Lincoln
Ave., Chicago, IL, is selling Natural Reed Fencing (a.k.a. Woven Natural
Reed Privacy Screening) under the Gardenpath brand name.  This fencing may
be used as schach if:*


   - *The reeds are placed perpendicular to the schach support-beams rather
   than parallel to the beams.  *



   - *A 2 X 4 or some other piece of kosher schach should be placed on top
   of the fencing so that the fencing is secure enough to not blow off during
   Succos.  This condition applies to all lightweight schach including mats,
   and is based on Shulchan Aruch 628:2.  *


*Other similar items sold in this or other stores have not been investigated
and should only be used after consulting with one?s Rabbi.*
* *


*The new revised cRc liquor list is now available on our website and APP.*
*http://www.crcweb.org/Liquor
List.pdf<;http
://m1e.net/c?54614027-rJ6q4XpLBI3rg%406881508-e5K5OjzJcATro>
*

*The entire staff of the cRc wishes everyone a very happy, healthy,
prosperous and peaceful new year and a joyous Yom Tov! *


*The cRc Kosher Apps for iPhone, iPad, Android, and WebOS are available at
http://www.crcweb.org/mobil
e_apps.php<;http
://m1e.net/c?54614027-G1WLbyLDnZc4g%406881512-VbuO3i/lXiSbk>.
These free apps contain information on foods, beverages, medicines, and
liquors which do or do not require kosher certification, and also have our
list of recommended Slurpees, kosher symbols, and Starbucks items. [Some
lists are not available on all apps. Blackberry app is not available at this
time.]*


*               *
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On 10/10/2011 4:59 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>
>
> Another problem is just defining the word Torah -- do we mean the Infinite
> Daas of the Borei, the full potential of what Hashem gave us, that which
> people are capable of extracting from what He gave us, or something else?
> (I assume we'll all agree we don't mean the words in a seifer Torah
> without even any TSBP, since neither the Pythagorian Thm nor the Law
> of Coservation of Matter-Energy are in TSBK. But that too is a valid
> translation of the word "Torah".)

On the contrary, AIUI the entire TSBP, as well as everything else, is
in the TSBK.  You just have to have the eyes to see it.  As in the story
of the Ramban and the meshumad Reb Avner.  Or the Kedushas Levi looking
in the chumash to find the Alter Rebbe's mother's name.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                

are there rules of warfare in the torah other than 
not to cut down one's enemies trees?
eg, sheva nations?
do we give them the option to accept 7mbn?
amalek?
suicide pills? if one believes (high probability
of torture?)
torturing suspects (againn, if imminient danger
is present??)
?
hb
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On 10/10/2011 10:19, Chana Luntz wrote:
> When somebody is becoming a ger, ie in the period between having decided
> to pursue conversion, and the actual mila/tevila, is one
> encouraged/taught to:
>
> a) Notsay brochos (while presumably being taught when to and what to say
> in preparation for the occurrence of the conversion)?
>
> b) Say brochos without shem and malchus?
>
> c) Say brochosin their entirety(presumably mishum chinuch)?
>
> Is a distinction made between brochos over mitzvos and other forms of
> brocha (ie nehnin, shevach)?How aboutmatterssuch asKiddushand havdala?
>

I didn't ask about it, though I may have read about it in Maurice Lamm's 
book. I know I didn't say "asher kideshanu;" I can't remember if I said 
those berachos with an altered nusach or not at all. I said the other 
berachos normally, except of course she-lo asani goy.

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer


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