Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 182

Wed, 07 Sep 2011

• 1. Even More on How I got two Aliyos Today (David Cohen)
• 2. Re: Yosef/selling (Doron Beckerman)
• 3. Middos of the Avos (Yitzchak Schaffer)
• 4. Re: Middos of the Avos (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Choosing a Frum Doctor (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: moon and sun (T6...@aol.com)
• 7. Re: Middos of the Avos (Lisa Liel)
• 8. Re: Phantom Chazal (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 9. Re: Ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (T6...@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (Micha Berger)
• 11. mesira vs chillul hashem (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 12. Re: mesira vs chillul hashem (Dorron Katzin)
• 13. Re: mesira vs chillul hashem (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 14. Re: Ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (Lisa Liel)
• 15. Re: Ancient Ashkenazi Hebrew (Joel C. Salomon)
• 16. Re: Middos of the Avos (Micha Berger)

RYL wrote:
>> They were wrong.  See Aruch Hashulchan 135 5 on Mon. & Thurs.
>> There is no requirement to lein the parsha of the week and whatever
>> was read is good.

Furthermore, it seems that they were inconsistent.  If they held that the
first reading was invalid -- as suggested by the fact that they had you make
a new berachah -- then they should have had the kohein repeat his aliyah as
well.  On the other hand, if they held that the reading from the wrong
parashah was valid bedi'eved, then they should have let you finish your
aliyah (by reading at least 3 pesukim) and make the closing berachah, and
then read Ki Teitzei (from the beginning) for the yisrael.

-- D.C.
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RHB asks:

>> 1. was joseph under the obligation to forgive his brothers (he was not
jewish (and or not one of the avos, so did he have to keep the torah at
all?)
2. did he and or should he have taken nekama upon them?
3. why did he (mistama] not take nekama on them?
for his father's sake?
for yiras shamayim? <<

The Abravanel talks about this. In his view:

1. "The 4th question: why did Yosef act like a stranger toward his brothers
and speak harshly? This would be a criminal sin since it would be taking
revenge and bearing a grudge like a snake. And if they had bad intent,
Hashem thought it for the best, so why take revenge after twenty years?"

2&3. Yosef had three options:

revenge - which he rejected due to a) fear of other people from Canaan
recognizing him, perhaps the brothers themselves, and he would be humiliated
if other people found out how his brothers mistreated him from anyone
besides himself. b) His father. c) It's wrong.

reconciliation, send them off and support them in Canaan - and risk
accusation of dual loyalty in sending his family Egyptian riches. If there
would be a war...

bring them to Egypt and support them there. But test them first to see if
they regretted it and changed their ways and would treat him properly in
Egypt.

Any suffering he did impose on them was only precise measure for measure due
to their intent to harm him. It was for their own benefit to provide
atonement, not vengeance.
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Hello all,

A question WRT the middos commonly attributed to the Avos (Avraham <==> 
chesed, etc.). What is the nature of the relationship of these middos to 
their respective figures? The two possibilities that occurred to me:

- Their souls were pre-wired for perfection in these middos
- The individuals cultivated their respective middos to a phenomenal degree

And if the latter, why was it that these middos were chosen?

I seem to recall hearing this discussed before. I also think I recall 
seeing the Nesivos Shalom discuss the relation of each Av to his 
wife/wives in terms of the middos: Avraham contrasting with Sarah (throw 
out Yishmael), etc.

-- 
Yitzchak Schaffer

On Tue, Sep 06, 2011 at 04:46:27PM -0400, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:
>                           The two possibilities that occurred to me:
> - Their souls were pre-wired for perfection in these middos
> - The individuals cultivated their respective middos to a phenomenal degree

It looks to me like you're posing nature vs nurture WRT the avos, and
thus the same "a mix of the two" answer ought to apply.

> And if the latter, why was it that these middos were chosen?

> I seem to recall hearing this discussed before. I also think I recall  
> seeing the Nesivos Shalom discuss the relation of each Av to his  
> wife/wives in terms of the middos: Avraham contrasting with Sarah (throw  
> out Yishmael), etc.

I dunno, I wrote something about the avos and how they related to
HQBH, their respective wives and their sons at
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2004/12/love-part-ii.shtml
I tried to show that each had a consistent definition of "ahavah"
in each context. Perhaps it will keep you busy until you get real
sources.

It might even suggest an answer about the progression of middos.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man is a drop of intellect drowning in a sea
mi...@aishdas.org        of instincts.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Sun, Sep 04, 2011 at 07:44:03AM -0400, Richard Wolberg wrote:
: How does this square with the efficacy of tefilla and merit, etc?

Isn't the efficacy of tefillah "just" another kind of merit to put down
on the scale? The advantage with tefillah is that the same action, turning
to the Almighty in speech, can be used to create merit in widely different
venues.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             I have great faith in optimism as a philosophy,
mi...@aishdas.org        if only because it offers us the opportunity of
http://www.aishdas.org   self-fulfilling prophecy.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                              - Arthur C. Clarke

 
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
> The whole difference  between modern and ancient science is that
> ancient science rested on  authority while modern science relies on
> experimental  evidence.

And exactly what experiment would you conduct to test whether  the
celestial bodies are intelligent?


Zev  Sero        
z...@sero.name    



>>>>
 
You could try and teach them some tricks and see if they learn  anything.
 
This is silly and overly literal, but I would like to suggest another way  
in which it is possible that the sun and the moon could be intelligent, and  
could talk to Hashem. 
 
("Two kings can't both share the same crown"  "Fine, moon, I'll make  you 
smaller!"  Moon:  "Hey, no fair!"  "OK well I'm sorry, how  about if I give 
you a gazillion stars?  Will that make you feel  better?"  "Not really"  "Ok 
then I'll have My people Israel count  their months by your light, and I'll 
also have them bring a korban to 'atone'  for what I did to you.  Now do you 
feel better?"  "Well maybe, just a  little."  "OK my final offer is, when 
Moshiach comes, I'll make you big  again."  "Deal!")
 
What I am thinking is that there is an angel or a sar or a spirit of some  
kind for each and every creature, and that the spirit of the sun and  the 
spirit of the moon could be intelligent and could talk.  Lacking  bechirah, 
they couldn't really be jealous or angry or upset or pacified as  humans 
could, so you would still need some degree of metaphorical explanation to  
interpret that conversation, but they could certainly be intelligent.
 

--Toby  Katz
================




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On 9/6/2011 3:46 PM, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> A question WRT the middos commonly attributed to the Avos (Avraham 
> <==> chesed, etc.). What is the nature of the relationship of these 
> middos to their respective figures? The two possibilities that 
> occurred to me:
>
> - Their souls were pre-wired for perfection in these middos
> - The individuals cultivated their respective middos to a phenomenal 
> degree
>
> And if the latter, why was it that these middos were chosen?
>
> I seem to recall hearing this discussed before. I also think I recall 
> seeing the Nesivos Shalom discuss the relation of each Av to his 
> wife/wives in terms of the middos: Avraham contrasting with Sarah 
> (throw out Yishmael), etc.
>

We don't really know a lot about the Avot as people.  I mean, if we have 
5 days worth of Avraham Avinu that's a lot.  I don't think the question 
is really pertinent, because all the Torah has given us is that which 
will display those middot.  The essence of Avraham Avinu which has been 
given to us is one of chesed.  Had Hashem chosen to pick different 
middot of his to show us, we'd have seen something else.

The Torah isn't a history book.  Which doesn't mean that it isn't 
historically accurate, but its purpose is didactic; not descriptive.

Lisa

On Tue, Sep 6, 2011 at 6:14 AM, <kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:
> I had meant to add this as the last line to my recent post:
> Or is it a real Chazal which appears somewhere *other* than Avos 6:2?

This is the Girsa of Kalah Rabsai Perek 8.

-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

In Avodah Digest, Vol 28, Issue 176 dated 8/26/2011 RMB wrote:
 
Ayin in  particular was likely not the Sepharadi sound. The evidence
of the nickname  Yankl points more to the /ng/ of the Italkim.


Micha  Berger              
mi...@aishdas.org         



------------------------------


>>>>>
 
How did Aza and Amorah become Gaza and Gemorrah?  Was there originally  
some kind of nasal G sound to the ayin that could be pronounced at the 
beginning  of a word?  The "ng" sound is natural in the middle or end of a word but  
would be hard to pronounce at the beginning of a word.
 

--Toby Katz
================






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On Wed, Sep 07, 2011 at 10:40:00AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: In Avodah Digest, Vol 28, Issue 176 dated 8/26/2011 RMB wrote:
:> Ayin in  particular was likely not the Sepharadi sound. The evidence
:> of the nickname  Yankl points more to the /ng/ of the Italkim.

: How did Aza and Amorah become Gaza and Gemorrah?  Was there originally  
: some kind of nasal G sound to the ayin that could be pronounced at the 
: beginning  of a word? ...

The people who named those cities not only had some kind of /ng/ like
ayin, but at least in the case of `Azza, they had two ayins! `Azza was
Pelishti. But the cities of the plain were vassals of Melekh Chedarlaomer
of Elam. Not much is known about Elamite language. Too many theories for
me to make sense of. So, I'll stick to `Azza:

Proto-Canaanite had `en and ga, which evolved into Arabic's `ayn and gayn
(which looks like an `ayn with a dot above it). Early Aramaic may have
had both sounds, although using the same ayin for both. Hebrew, Ugaritic and
Phoenician (which is a later Canaanite) only have one ayin sound.

:                The "ng" sound is natural in the middle or end of a word but  
: would be hard to pronounce at the beginning of a word.

I don't find that to be true. Perhaps you're overly influenced by being
an English speaker, where "-ng" is only used to close syllables.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-rabbi-testimony-201109
07,0,3564312.story 


here is an aspect of this topic. . granted he is right in his  derech in 
mesira.  .  does it figure into the equation that, besides all the 
jew-hatred letters-to-the-editor that this will generate, that  in 
addition a whole panoply of non-O orators will expound on the moral 
corruption that 'frum' judaism engenders.  does that factor come into 
play?

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"Granted he is right in his derech in mesira."

Why do you make that assumption?  From the article:

Experts in Jewish law said the principle of mesira originates from a time of
oppressive and brutal secular authorities, and that how it applies in modern
society is a topic of much controversy and debate.
Rabbi Michael Broyde, an Emory University law professor and a member of the
rabbinical court Beth Din of America, said a commonly held view is that the
principle doesn't apply in a just, democratic state. At its root, the
concept is similar to the reluctance in black communities in the South in
the early 20th century to report one of their own to authorities, the
professor said.


On Wed, Sep 7, 2011 at 12:33, <Saul.Z.New...@kp.org> wrote:

>
>
> http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-rabbi-testim
> ony-20110907,0,3564312.story
>
> here is an aspect of this topic. . granted he is right in his  derech in
> mesira.  .  does it figure into the equation that, besides all the
> jew-hatred letters-to-the-editor that this will generate, that  in
> addition a whole panoply of non-O orators will expound on the moral
> corruption that 'frum' judaism engenders.  does that factor come into
> play?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>
>
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>Why do you make that assumption? 



-  if  he is wrong , than any chillul hashem emenating from a sin should 
engender culpability. no chiddush....

so let's grant he's right.   does  chillul hahsem ever emanate from doing 
a mitzva? my understanding  is no mattter who 
feels you, your religion , or your G-d  are  ridiculous based on doing  a 
correct  halachic practice, call it what you may it's not a chillul 
hashem?

so the question is, if it's not chillul hashem  [or chillul O  or chillul 
chassidus  etc] , then  what do you call the inevitable anti- frum jew 
feelings 
engendered in either non-Jews or non-O clergy?   just  jew hatred?

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On 9/7/2011 9:40 AM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> In Avodah Digest, Vol 28, Issue 176 dated 8/26/2011 RMB wrote:
>> Ayin in particular was likely not the Sepharadi sound. The evidence
>> of the nickname Yankl points more to the /ng/ of the Italkim.

> How did Aza and Amorah become Gaza and Gemorrah?  Was there originally 
> some kind of nasal G sound to the ayin that could be pronounced at the 
> beginning of a word?  The "ng" sound is natural in the middle or end 
> of a word but would be hard to pronounce at the beginning of a word.

I don't think it's an either-or situation. It is the pharyngeal sound the
Sephardim make (particularly the Teimanim), which has a nasal component
as well.

On 9/7/2011 10:10 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> Proto-Canaanite had `en and ga, which evolved into Arabic's `ayn and gayn
> (which looks like an `ayn with a dot above it). Early Aramaic may have
> had both sounds, although using the same ayin for both. Hebrew, Ugaritic and
> Phoenician (which is a later Canaanite) only have one ayin sound.

Can you post a source, please? I know that Ugaritic ga was the equivalent
of gimmel. The Arabic ghayin was represented in ancient Hebrew by a
gimmel without a dagesh.

Lisa

On 09/07/2011 11:10 AM, Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 07, 2011 at 10:40:00AM -0400, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> >                The "ng" sound is natural in the middle or end of a word but  
> > would be hard to pronounce at the beginning of a word.
> 
> I don't find that to be true. Perhaps you're overly influenced by being
> an English speaker, where "-ng" is only used to close syllables.

Similarly, the most common Vietnamese family name is Nguyen (Nguy?n,
actually, but I don?t know if the accents will make it through),
pronounced something like ??win?.

Along those lines, the line ???? ??? ?????, ???? ???? ??????? in
Tehillim 104 sounds almost like a pun.

?Chesky

On Tue, Sep 06, 2011 at 07:13:38PM -0500, Lisa Liel wrote:
> On 9/6/2011 3:46 PM, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:
>> A question WRT the middos commonly attributed to the Avos (Avraham  
>> <==> chesed, etc.). What is the nature of the relationship of these  

> We don't really know a lot about the Avot as people.  I mean, if we have  
> 5 days worth of Avraham Avinu that's a lot.  I don't think the question  
> is really pertinent, because all the Torah has given us is that which  
> will display those middot...

How does that change pertinence? Whether we want to know the historical
Avraham or Avraham-as-he-appears-in-Bereishis, one still can ask how
we're supposed to understand the origin of his chessed. And in either
case the question is what that says to my own development of my own
capacity of chessed.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham


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End of Avodah Digest, Vol 28, Issue 182
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