Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 180

Sat, 03 Sep 2011

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 14:13:16 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Rav Moshe Feinstein: Choosing A Frum Doctor?




If a person has a choice of two doctors, one of them is Shomer Mitzvos but
is not a specialist for the particular procedure needed and the other
doctor is a specialist however he is a Kofer, which one is preferable? The
Igros Moshe (YD 4:8) says there is no question that the latter is
preferable unless he is actively involved in seducing people away from
keeping the Torah and Mitzvos. Otherwise since we have an obligation to
seek medical help when needed according to the Rambam and most Rishonim,
included in that obligation is the obligation to seek out the best doctor
available whether he is a Jew or a non-Jew.

-------------------------
Extra credit: what if 2 doctors are equally qualified, 1 frum, 1 not, and
it's shabbat, which one should treat you (involving otherwise torah
prohibited activities)if it is life threatening?
KT
Joel Rich
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Message: 2
From: David Cohen <ddco...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 21:51:21 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] lecha dodi-eli tzion


RSZN wrote:
>> how prevalent , if at all , is the practice of singing  lecha dodi to
that melody on shabbat chazon?

Until five years ago, I don't remember ever *not* hearing it.  I assumed
that it was a "universal" (among Ashkenazi shuls) minhag.  Then I moved to
my current community, where the rav does not allow it.  He told me that he
grew up with it as well, but that in his shul, they used to sing Eli Tziyon
on 9 Av in the traditional East European fashion (less rhythmic, like "benei
veitecha kevatechilah"), so when the sang Lecha Dodi to the rhythmic tune on
Shabbat Chazon, it wasn't *exactly* the same tune.  But since we, like most
"modern" shuls, have adopted the West European custom of singing Eli Tziyon
to the rhythmic tune, we associate that tune directly with the kinah, and
thus shouldn't use it for Lecha Dodi.

-- D.C.
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Message: 3
From: Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 22:30:20 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] king's groove on heads.....??


> > R' Harvey Benton asked:
> >
> >> i read a gemmarra or perush or medrash that states the kings of
> >> israel had a groove on their heads so that the crowns would fit
> >> (there was a groove allegedly on the crowns) is this true?

The Gemoro in Avoda Zoro 44a refers to it, and Rashi in Sanhedrin 21b
"Shebikesh Leholmo" mentions it explicitly.

???? ?????? ??? ??????. ???? ????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ?????
?? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ?? ????
????? ???? ???? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ??????
???? ??????:

Based on the Posuk in Melachim-A 1:5
???????????? ??? ??????? ??????????? ?????? ????? ????????

Sources from the back page of this month's Kulmus magazine (comes with
the Hebrew Mishpacha magazine).

Kol Tuv

- Danny

Danny Schoemann
LinkedIn profile: http://linkedin.com/in/doniels
The End Game (my blog): http://www.expertpjm.com


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Message: 4
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 16:00:33 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] O vs pharisee


On Tue, Aug 30, 2011 at 05:26:29PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
>>  The Gemara actually criticizes the Perushim.

> Presumably you refer to Sotah 22a, where the gemara criticises *fake*
> Prushim...

RZS typoed, he meant: amud beis.

Josephus mentions that an essential part of what made the Perushim
distinct was observance of tum'ah vetaharah.

I don't think you get a real sense of how separatist being a "chaver"
was until learning Zera'im. Between already extant halakhah and new
taqanos (eg demai, numerous laws that assume amei ha'aretz are perpetually
chosheshim for being tamei), added to minhagim like eating chol al taharas
qodesh, it became difficult to share a meal with non-Perushim. Or borrow
their clothing...

In comparison, stam yeinam is a mere molehill.

It also explains why divrei chaveirus is such a big deal. C.f. AZ 39a,
Yad, Hil Mitam'ei Mishkav uMoshav 10:2.

So, the name "Perushim" doesn't surprise me.

Also, the people who follow gezeiros are poreshim from things dangerous
close to violating deOrasisos. But that doesn't fit Josephus as well,
as he focuses on taharos bedavqa.

>       ... (The NT's criticisms of "Pharisees" may be seen in the same
> light, as aimed only at the fake ones.)

Off topic, but I think they really meant us. Part of the justification
of the abandonment of the whole concept of Jewish Law (halakhah or some
sect's version) is to portray people for whom compliance to law occluded
their acting on faith and morality.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You cannot propel yourself forward
mi...@aishdas.org        by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org                   -Anonymous
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 5
From: Liron Kopinsky <liron.kopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 22:39:19 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] Rav Moshe Feinstein: Choosing A Frum Doctor?


> Extra credit: what if 2 doctors are equally qualified, 1 frum, 1 not,
> and it's shabbat, which one should treat you (involving otherwise
> torah prohibited activities)if it is life threatening?

Frum Dr.
Mitzvah Goreret Mitzvah.

Kol tuv,
Liron



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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 16:25:58 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] O vs pharisee


On 1/09/2011 4:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>        ... (The NT's criticisms of "Pharisees" may be seen in the same
>> >  light, as aimed only at the fake ones.)

> Off topic, but I think they really meant us. Part of the justification
> of the abandonment of the whole concept of Jewish Law (halakhah or some
> sect's version) is to portray people for whom compliance to law occluded
> their acting on faith and morality.

I think that's how the later authors of the NT meant it; they had
probably never seen an actual Parush in the flesh, and they had an
agenda of justifying the way their community already lived.  Also,
they were mostly antisemitic nochrim.  But the original characters
in these stories were shomrei mitzvos, so there's no reason to believe
they had an anti-Prushi agenda.  And the NT's criticisms of Prushim
sound very much like the ones in Sotah, which are aimed only at the
fakes.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                



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Message: 7
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Thu, 1 Sep 2011 20:13:20 GMT
Subject:
[Avodah] Shabbos King


RDavid Bannett wrote:

> I hope it does not make any staunch feminist on the list feel downgraded, 
 but the Rambam, in Hilkhot Shabbat 30 Halakha 2, uses the term Shabbat 
 Hamelekh.  He does not mention Shabbat Hamalka in Mishne Torah<

And RMicha Berger responded:
>I would like to propose that it rests on whether one has our girsa in
Shabbos 119a of "Shabbos haMalkah", with a hei, or whether R' Chanina is
taken as speaking of "Shabbos haMalka", with an alef. Although perhaps
the Rambam's girsa was further from ours, since the rest of R' Chanina's
quote "Bo'u veneitzi liqeras Shabbos haMalkah" is Hebrew more than Aramaic
-- Aramaic would be "asyon unefaqon" (diqduq?) not "bo'u veneitzei".

In any case, is this a da'as yachid of the Rambam? As I already noted,
it's certainly not what reaches us in the zemiros<

     "Shabbos hamalka," with an alef, is neither Hebrew nor Aramaic.  In
     Hebrew, there would be a hei at the end, and it denotes "the queen." 
     In Aramaic, the word for "the king" is "malka;" with an alef, and
     "malk'sa" for queen. Aramaic has no hei hay'dia for its nouns.

     In fact, there are two girsaos in the g'mara.  The Rif has "Shabbos
     malka" with an alef; obviously, so did the Rambam, and the Maggid
     Mishne, in citing the Rambam's souurce, likewise quotes the g'mara as
     "malka," with an alef.  Thus, they agree that the reference is to
     king, and not queen.  The Rosh has the girsa "malk'sa,"  which  
     refers to Shabbos as queen.  Our g'mara, which has "hamalka," follows
     the Rosh's understanding, but has it in Hebrew, rather than in
     Aramaic.

EMT

     

____________________________________________________________
57-Year-Old Mom Looks 25
Mom Reveals $5 Wrinkle Trick That Has Angered Doctors!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL3141/4e5fe7b089b191aa585st01vuc



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Message: 8
From: Lisa Liel <l...@starways.net>
Date: Thu, 01 Sep 2011 16:37:03 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] O vs pharisee




On 9/1/2011 3:25 PM, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 1/09/2011 4:00 PM, Micha Berger wrote:
>>> ... (The NT's criticisms of "Pharisees" may be seen in the same
>>> > light, as aimed only at the fake ones.)
>
>> Off topic, but I think they really meant us. Part of the justification
>> of the abandonment of the whole concept of Jewish Law (halakhah or some
>> sect's version) is to portray people for whom compliance to law occluded
>> their acting on faith and morality.
>
> I think that's how the later authors of the NT meant it; they had
> probably never seen an actual Parush in the flesh, and they had an
> agenda of justifying the way their community already lived. Also,
> they were mostly antisemitic nochrim. But the original characters
> in these stories were shomrei mitzvos, so there's no reason to believe
> they had an anti-Prushi agenda. And the NT's criticisms of Prushim
> sound very much like the ones in Sotah, which are aimed only at the
> fakes.

I don't know where you get the idea that they were shomer mitzvot.  I'm 
not even convinced they existed at all at that time.

Lisa



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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 01:01:39 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] O vs pharisee


On 1/09/2011 5:37 PM, Lisa Liel wrote:
> I don't know where you get the idea that they were shomer mitzvot.  I'm not even convinced they existed at all at that time.

 From their own stories.  There are too many details that survived the
retelling by people who had no clue about yiddishkeit, and therefore
couldn't have made up, for them to have no basis in fact.  The people
who passed these stories on, and eventually wrote them down, often
completely misunderstood the import of these details, but they're there
if you read them with a Jewish eye.

For instance, the fact that the "Pharisees" gave J mussar because his
talmidim were lax about netilas yodayim.  From this we learn several
things: 1) that they were keeping almost everything else, so that this
was the big fault the critics found; 2) J himself was washing properly,
or they would have confronted him with it; 3) He doesn't excuse his
talmidim's laxity; he just tells the critics off for complaining.  But
while the rest of the story is not recorded, I speculate that once the
critics were gone he turned to his talmidim and gave them some mussar
too, because however hypocritical the critics were, they had a point.

There's also the so-called "chilul shabbos" incident in the field; from
the answer he gave it's pretty clear what this was about. The fact that
this was the answer he gave shows that the story is really about pikuach
nefesh, and thus he quite properly cited the proof from Dovid eating the
Lechem Haponim.  By the time the story was recorded, the nochrim and
amei ho'oretz had forgotten what it was about, but they remembered this
argument and included it in the record.

-- 
Zev Sero        If they use these guns against us once, at that moment
z...@sero.name   the Oslo Accord will be annulled and the IDF will
                 return to all the places that have been given to them.
                                            - Yitzchak Rabin

                    
                



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Message: 10
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 00:21:02 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Shabbos King


R' EMT:
<SNIP>
The Rosh has the girsa "malk'sa,"  which   refers to Shabbos as queen.  Our
g'mara, which has "hamalka," follows the Rosh's understanding, but has it in
Hebrew, rather than in Aramaic.
----------------


Dodi is also Shabbos Malk'sa.

KT,
MYG




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Message: 11
From: harchinam <harchi...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 09:59:31 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Rav Moshe Feinstein: Choosing A Frum Doctor?


>
> Extra credit: what if 2 doctors are equally qualified, 1 frum, 1 not, and
> it's shabbat, which one should treat you (involving otherwise torah
> prohibited activities)if it is life threatening?
>

I didn't look it up so I have no source, but IIRC I learned that the shomer
Shabbos doctor should be your choice for treatment of this type on Shabbos.

*** Rena
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Message: 12
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toram...@bezeqint.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 15:41:53 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] study group: Israeli Agricultural heritage knoweldge


As part of my studies in environmental studies, I am starting a study group
on the following topic:

 

"Israeli agricultural heritage knowledge in Jewish sources"

 

The topic includes collecting/collating the knowledge of Israeli
agricultural practices that is recorded in the Torah, Mishna, G'mara etc.

 

For example: 

 

In mishna Bikkurim they discuss the fact that you are not allowed to bring
Bikkurim prior to Shavu'ot.

 

When discussing Bikkurim with modern day agricultural experts and botanists,
they doubted that it was possible to bring Bikkurim on Shavu'ot itself, b/c
most of the 7 minim (except for wheat and barley) have fruit, in most of
Israel, at least 1-2 months later.

 

In mishna Bikkurim they bring a story to illustrate the halacha that it is
not allowed to bring Bikkurim prior to Shavu'ot:

One year the people of Har Tzevo'im brought Bikkurim prior to Shavu'ot and
they were not accepted and had to turn back.

 

What we learn here is that there was at least one area in historic Israel
that had fruits that were ripe enough to bring for Bikkurim even prior to
Shavu'ot.  

[Har Tzevo'im is probably the area known today as Wadi Kelt on the border of
the Judean Desert].

 

The meetings will take place once a month, probably in Ramat Gan.

 

If there is sufficient interest, it would be possible to use an online video
conferencing medium.

 

Depending on the participants, the meetings will be conducted in Hebrew.

 

Shoshana L. Boublil

Ramat Gan, Israel

 

 

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Message: 13
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Fri, 02 Sep 2011 08:30:48 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Bais Ovi: Man Giving A Shiur To Women - Need A


 From http://revach.net/article.php?id=1680

Can a Rav or any male teacher give a Shiur to women without a 
Mechitza between him and the audience?   Rav Yitzchok Isaac Liebes in 
Tshuvos Bais Ovi (3:40) says that the Gemara in Succah says that even 
at the Levaya of the murdered Moshiach Ben Yosef where the mood is 
very serious as we are all mourning his death we will need a 
separation between the men and women. Based on this gemara, certainly 
even in a classroom or lecture setting there should be a need for a 
Mechitza.  Nevertheless he says that in a Torah lecture it is not 
necessary.  Why not?

The fact that it is done in Bais Yaakov, says the Bais Ovi, shows 
that the Rabbanim permitted it.   Furthermore when looking at the 
beautiful frum families and entire communities that emerged from this 
system it is clear that they have done nothing wrong.  Since we know 
that Aveira Goreres Aveira were this an issue it would have had a 
terrible negative affect and spiraled out of control to the other 
extreme.  Since the results are so positive it must not be any 
problem whatsoever.

He further says that when Reb Yisroel Salanter came to Germany and 
found the great gaon and tzaddik Rav Ezriel Hildesheimer teaching 
Shulchan Aruch and Tanach to girls without a Mechitza, he told him 
that if any Rav would do this in Lithuania he would be fired 
immediately and rightfully so according to Halacha.  Nevertheless 
said Rav Yisroel Salanter, "Halevai I should be zocheh to sit next to 
Rav Hildesheimer in the Olam Haba where his reward will be great.  He 
did it all L'Shem Shamayim and it is an "Es Laasos LaHashem".

The Bais Ovi does caution that this liberty can only be taken for a 
Torah lecture, but for any non torah lectures, the Halacha should be 
strictly adhered to.



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Message: 14
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 08:49:37 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Rav Moshe Feinstein: Choosing A Frum Doctor?


?

> Extra credit: what if 2 doctors are equally qualified, 1 frum, 1 not, 
> and it's shabbat, which one should treat you (involving otherwise 
> torah prohibited activities)if it is life threatening?

Frum Dr.
Mitzvah Goreret Mitzvah.

Kol tuv,
Liron
_______________________________________________
And if these 2 doctors were joined by a non Jewish one?
KT
Joel Rich

THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.




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Message: 15
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toram...@bezeqint.net>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 17:57:23 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] sun and moon


> From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
> Subject: [Avodah] sun and moon

 
> Questions:
> What does it mean that moon and sun talked - they are inanimate
> 
> the moon's light is only a reflection of the sun so what does the
> whole story mean and how can
> it be as big in the future

[SLB writes] For a wonderful and in-depth discussion of this midrash and its
meanings see:

"The Moon's Lost Light" by Devorah Heshelis
A Torah perspective on women from the fall of Eve to the Full Redemption.

Shoshana L. Boublil







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Message: 16
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 12:29:51 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Rav Moshe Feinstein: Choosing A Frum Doctor?


On Fri, Sep 02, 2011 at 08:49:37AM -0400, Rich, Joel wrote:
::> Extra credit: what if 2 doctors are equally qualified, 1 frum, 1 not, 
::> and it's shabbat, which one should treat you (involving otherwise 
::> torah prohibited activities)if it is life threatening?

:: Frum Dr.
:: Mitzvah Goreret Mitzvah.
...
:: Liron

: And if these 2 doctors were joined by a non Jewish one?

My understanding is that piquach nefesh cases, in particular those that
have witnesses, should be handled by the greatest talmid chakham present,
so that it is remembered if ch"v anyone around or who hears the story
is in that situation in a subsequent Shabbos.

Here's a story as retold by RJR
<http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol12/v12n107.shtml#13>:
> To be exact - as brought down in The Rav...

...which is a selections of quotes and translations of quotes of things
RYBS said...

>                                      ... - it was a nonJewish doctor who
> was examining R'YBS and R' Chaim asked whether it would help to turn the
> lamp up. The doctor said it wouldn't be a bad idea. R' Chaim told R'
> Moshe to turn it up, R' Moshe intuitively exclaimed "It's the Sabbath,
> ask the doctor if he really needs more light."

> R'YBS remembers his grandfather got angry and told R' Simcha Selig (the
> dayan of Brisk) that his son was an ignoramous, he did not understand
> that the Sabbath plays no role when there is danger to life. The Brisker
> Dayan then immediately turned the lamp up!

> In a footnote R' Rakeffet notes that R'YBS didn't know why R' Chaim
> didn't turn the light up himself.

The answer I would suggest (just guessing out of thin air) is that RCS
wanted Brisk's *poseiq* to do it for the above reason.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             If a person does not recognize one's own worth,
mi...@aishdas.org        how can he appreciate the worth of another?
http://www.aishdas.org             - Rabbi Yaakov Yosef of Polnoye,
Fax: (270) 514-1507                  author of Toldos Yaakov Yosef



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Message: 17
From: Yoni Leibowitz <yonileibow...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Sep 2011 18:36:43 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Happiness and Wealth


Does anyone know the location of the Medrish Tanchuma that teaches the
following: The letters of the word ashir stand for einayim, shinayim,
yadayim, and raglayim. And the lesson is that sameach b'chelko means to
realize that we are all extremely wealthy because we have a functioning
body, and because we have organs such as these four which we wouldn't sell
for any price (teeth used to be less replaceable). The Medrish also goes
through a story of rich person 1 not being content because he saw rich
person 2 who was richer than him, but then rich person 1 passed by rich
person 3 who had less than him, and it made him happy to focus on how much
he had, and then rich person 3 wasn't content because he saw rich person 1
and he was jealous of him, until he passed by rich person 4 who had less
than him... and on and on until it's a poor person passing by someone with
no arms, etc., so focus on what you do have and you'll be happy, and it ends
off by saying that even someone who has no wealth or health or anything,
even he has enough to praise Hashem because at least he is alive and can do
mitzvos.
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