Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 93

Sun, 12 Jun 2011

• 1. Rioting Over Food (Richard Wolberg)
• 2. Yizkor (Richard Wolberg)
• 3. Re: Pikuach Nefesh (Micha Berger)
• 4. Re: Rioting Over Food (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Yizkor (harchinam)
• 6. Neros Shabbos/Yomtov (Zev Sero)
• 7. Pikuach Nefesh (Hankman)
• 8. Re: simcha vs bassar (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 9. Re: Rioting Over Food (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Rioting Over Food (Goldmeier Family)
• 11. Re: Rioting Over Food (Ben Waxman)
• 12. Re: Pikuach Nefesh (Zev Sero)
• 13. Re: simcha vs bassar (Harry Maryles)
• 14. Re: Pikuach Nefesh (Ben Waxman)
• 15. pikuach nefesh (Hankman)
• 16. Re: Pikuach Nefesh (Moshe Y. Gluck)

Regarding the statement: After travelling a few days in the midbar, certain elements of Bnei 
Yisroel got a craving for meat and complained to Moshe. Moshe spoke 
to Hashem and Hashem sends them an abundance of meat with which they 
stuff themselves with and die. 

I have eaten Kosher Meatless Meatballs that have been perfected to taste
just like meat. There used to be a restaurant in N.Y. years ago by the name
of Farm Food and their vegetarian chopped liver
was delicious. If humans can make meatless meatballs that taste like meat
and the manna could taste like anything you wanted it to taste like, then
the above statement lacks logic. Don't you think HaShem
could have given them meatless meat which would have satisfied their craving for meat?

Everyone seems to be giving the reason as having to do with tzedaka.
If that is the case, then why not do Yizkor everyday, as one has an obligation to give charity every day.
And by doing yizkor everyday, you guarantee everyone will give because of the pledging.
I see it a bit differently. One's life and behavior is a direct influence of parents and family.
Hence, saying yizkor in the long run increases one's joy because of the wonderful memories and close connection to the deceased k'rovim.
Also, I heard it explained from a completely practical point, that having yizkor on the Yom tovim will increase the attendance in shul. 
How many times I've heard people ask me what time Yizkor was. My response is that the service begins at such and such time and at 
some point we recite yizkor. However, I won't give a specific time so as not to encourage someone to come just for yizkor, although,
if it weren't for yizkor, half the people would not be there.

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 08:57:14AM -0400, Richard Wolberg wrote:
: I think that the answer is obvious. These innocent passengers were going 
: to be killed in any event, therefore, wouldn't it be logical to shoot down the plane 
: to save even one person (let alone thousands) in the towers or pentagon since these 
: passengers were doomed from the start. 

See the case of Sheva ben Bikhri (Shemuel II ch 20).

From it, the gemara concludes (Sanhedrin 72b, Y-mi Terumos 8:4) that
if attackers come to a caravan and demand that a particular person be
turned in to them or all will be killed, you may. According to Reish
Laqish, only if he is deserving of fath lehalakhah, as in the case in
the navi. According to R' Yochanan, anyone. But if they do not specify
a person, forcing the people in the caravan to choose, you do not.

This defies your pragmatic reasoning. Apparently he considers not becoming
a murderer proactively to be of moral value even if it means more people
die. R' Yochanan says that this only applies when you pick the victim;
Reish Laqish says that even if they pick the victim, turning him over
is sufficiently murderous to be a moral problem.

The Rambam (Yesodei haTorah 5:5) holds like Reish Laqish

The Rama explicitly distinguishes this from the case of abortion to save
the life of the mother, or even infanticide during delivery if leaving the
child alone would mean both die. See Rashi on Sanhedrin. A non-viable
child is like one the attackers already singled out for death.

It would seem Torah morality is deontological, not consequentialist. (IOW,
it is about how people act more than outcomes.) See R' Michael J Harris's
article in Torah uMadda Journal at
<http://www.scribd.com/doc/32656397/Untitled>.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 09:04:44AM -0400, Richard Wolberg wrote:
: If humans can make meatless meatballs that taste like meat and the
: manna could taste like anything you wanted it to taste like, then the
: above statement lacks logic...

The mitzvah of Shabbos lights is based on the awareness that presentation
is a big part of the enjoyment of the meal. Seeing what you are eating
enhances the se'udah.

I bet those meatless meatballs had the texture and appearance of
meatballs, not looking like white coriander-sized balls.
(<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Coriander_seeds.jpg> shows
them to be 3-4mm across.)

The next generation tells tell you their complaint, mun is "lechem
hakelokel" (Bamidbar 21:5). According to Rashi, they were having problems
dealing with food that doesn't demand defacation. (The things we take
for granted...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Fortunate indeed, is the man who takes
mi...@aishdas.org        exactly the right measure of himself,  and
http://www.aishdas.org   holds a just balance between what he can
Fax: (270) 514-1507      acquire and what he can use." - Peter Latham

>
> Also, I heard it explained from a completely practical point, that having
> yizkor on the Yom tovim will increase the attendance in shul.
> How many times I've heard people ask me what time Yizkor was. My response
> is that the service begins at such and such time and at
> some point we recite yizkor. However, I won't give a specific time so as
> not to encourage someone to come just for yizkor, although,
> if it weren't for yizkor, half the people would not be there.
>

 I do hope that if some gentleman asks you what time yizkor is in order that
his wife, who is home with 5 young children can come to shul to daven in
time for yizkor and maybe a bit of musaf shmoneh esreh as well you don't
give him the same answer. On the other hand, since I have never heard of a
shul in which men only come there for yizkor I must assume that we are
talking about two very different situations...

*** Rena
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On 12/06/2011 10:13 AM, Micha Berger wrote:

> The mitzvah of Shabbos lights is based on the awareness that presentation
> is a big part of the enjoyment of the meal. Seeing what you are eating
> enhances the se'udah.

Question: nowadays we are yotzei the basic requirement for neros shabbos
with electric lights, which is why we don't light candles in every room,
as the Sh"A requires.  We have electric lights in or outside every room,
and we light candles only in the room where we plan to eat, for the sake
of having something on which to say the bracha.  Therefore these candles
are not absolutely necessary for the mitzvah.

Shvus dishvus is permitted for a mitzvah, only if the mitzvah would be
absolutely impossible without it.  If one is sitting in pitch dark, and
thus unable to have oneg shabbos, one may tell a goy to bring a lit
candle from another reshus hayochid with which there is no eruv; but if
there is already one candle, so that one is not in pitch dark, and *some*
oneg is possible but it's still rather gloomy, one may not tell a goy to
bring another candle, because it's shvus dishvus.

On yomtov, the issur in striking a match is nolad, which is drabannan;
it's not really a shvus, but the principle should be the same.  Thus,
telling a goy to strike a match is shvus dishvus.  Question: if the
yortzeit candle one left to light from has gone out, may one ask a goy
to strike a match so that one may light neros on the second day?  In
pre-electric days I would have no question; of course one may, since
the mitzvah is impossible without it.  But nowadays one is yotzei the
mitzvah anyway; is this not like the situation where one has just enough
light to make *some* oneg shabbos possible, and thus forbidden from
doing a shvus dishvus to increase the light and the mitzvah?


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

RRW wrote:

I think that the answer is obvious. These innocent passengers were going 
to be killed in any event, therefore, wouldn't it be logical to shoot down the plane 
to save even one person (let alone thousands) in the towers or pentagon since these 
passengers were doomed from the start. 

CM responds:

Of course you are right, they were all doomed. But we only know that with
certainty with 20/20 hindsight. Prior to these events we had no certainty
that the passengers were all doomed. The air force might have talked the
hijackers down or some passengers could possibly have survived the crash
(not likely in hindsight but a possibility that could have been possible
without the benefit of hindsight) or they could have missed their target
(the inexperienced novice terrorist pilot was piloting the plane).

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster
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R' SZN:
seen online---

Here is a common misunderstanding ... Many frum Jews insist on eating meat
at every holiday meal. They do this because the Talmud tells us there can be
no happiness without meat and wine, and "happiness" is required on the
holiday*. But, those fools who unreflectivly stuff themselves with meat have
forgotten that "happiness" is a subjective quality. It can't be prescribed.
I can't demand that you  enjoy a particular food or drink will make you
happy. Everyone is different. Some people don't like meat. Others like fish
and meat equally well. The idea that someone who enjoys fish can't use it to
fulfill a requirement to be happy is absurd. If it makes him happy, it makes
him happy. And the people who will eat a fish meal with great gusto but
insist on having a small, undesired piece of meat at the end "just to fulfil
the requirement" are missing the point. The obligation isn't to eat meat.
The obligation is to be happy. And if eating fish makes you happy, eat fish
and make no apologies*
<SNIP>
--- are there communities  outside of MO   who are not makpid to eat
fleishig  on shavuot?

-------------------



The Gemara, IIRC, only says that Simchah requires wine, not meat - Rambam
adds meat in, and the commentaries ask about that. Even those who say that
one is required to eat meat on Yom Tov, might agree (based on yesterday's
parashah) that fish is included in meat - see Bamidbar 11:22, and the
He'emak Davar there.  

 

As far as the hakpadah to eat meat by every seudah, frankly, I can't
remember ever hearing it (and my black-hat credentials are impeccable. :-)
)

 

KT,

MYG

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On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 10:13:13AM -0400, Micha Berger wrote:
: On Sun, Jun 12, 2011 at 09:04:44AM -0400, Richard Wolberg wrote:
:: If humans can make meatless meatballs that taste like meat and the
:: manna could taste like anything you wanted it to taste like, then the
:: above statement lacks logic...
...
: I bet those meatless meatballs had the texture and appearance of
: meatballs, not looking like white coriander-sized balls.

A simpler answer: not everyone merited to the full miracle. Some only
experienced the default taste of wafers soaked in honey (Shemos 16:31)
So, the people who got tired of mun were likely not the kind of people
who were able to enjoy a full menu of tastes. (Regardless of appearance
and texture.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

meatless meat - isnt that what the Mohn was (at least according to the 
medrash, if not according to the psukim)?

I compared it for my kids to Jelly Bellys that taste like different 
things, but you would not sit down to a meal of roast beef flavored 
jelly bellys.

Kol tuv
Rafi Goldmeier

---------


On 12/6/2011 4:04 PM, Richard Wolberg wrote:
> Regarding the statement: After travelling a few days in the midbar, certain elements of Bnei
> Yisroel got a craving for meat and complained to Moshe. Moshe spoke
> to Hashem and Hashem sends them an abundance of meat with which they
> stuff themselves with and die.
>
> I have eaten Kosher Meatless Meatballs that have been perfected to
> taste just like meat. There used to be a restaurant in N.Y. years ago
> by the name of Farm Food and their vegetarian chopped liver
> was delicious. If humans can make meatless meatballs that taste like
> meat and the manna could taste like anything you wanted it to taste
> like, then the above statement lacks logic. Don't you think HaShem
> could have given them meatless meat which would have satisfied their craving for meat?
> _______________________________________________
> Avodah mailing list
> Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
> http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
>

Unless the food was never the issue (displaced aggression and all that).

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Richard Wolberg" <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
 Don't you think HaShem
> could have given them meatless meat which would have satisfied their 
> craving for meat?
> _______________________________________________
> 

On 12/06/2011 9:49 AM, Hankman wrote:

> Of course you are right, they were all doomed. But we only know that
> with certainty with 20/20 hindsight. Prior to these events we had no
> certainty that the passengers were all doomed. The air force might
> have talked the hijackers down or some passengers could possibly have
> survived the crash (not likely in hindsight but a possibility that
> could have been possible without the benefit of hindsight) or they
> could have missed their target (the inexperienced novice terrorist
> pilot was piloting the plane).

Or the hijackers might have done teshuvah.  They were not robots, they were
moral agents, fully responsible for their actions, and thus capable of
changing them.  Therefore nothing was inevitable.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

Ein Simcha Ela B'Basar refers to the Bassar of the Korban Chagiga.
?
HM 

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/

--- On Sun, 6/12/11, Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com> wrote:


From: Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Avodah] simcha vs bassar
To: "'A High-Level Torah Discussion Group'" <avo...@lists.aishdas.org>
Date: Sunday, June 12, 2011, 9:01 AM






R' SZN:
seen online---

Here is a common misunderstanding ... Many frum Jews insist on eating meat
at every holiday meal. They do this because the Talmud tells us there can
be no happiness without meat and wine, and "happiness" is required on the
holiday*. But, those fools who unreflectivly stuff themselves with meat
have forgotten that "happiness" is a subjective quality. It can't be
prescribed. I can't demand that you ?enjoy a particular food or drink will
make you happy. Everyone is different. Some people don't like meat. Others
like fish and meat equally well. The idea that someone who enjoys fish
can't use it to?fulfill?a requirement to be happy is absurd. If it makes
him happy, it?makes?him happy. And the people who will eat a fish meal with
great gusto but insist on having a small, undesired piece of meat at the
end "just to fulfil the requirement" are missing the point. The obligation
isn't to eat meat. The obligation is to be happy. And if eating fish makes
you
 happy, eat fish and make no apologies*
<SNIP>
--- are there communities ?outside of MO ? who are not makpid to eat fleishig ?on shavuot?
-------------------
?
The Gemara, IIRC, only says that Simchah requires wine, not meat - Rambam
adds meat in, and the commentaries ask about that. Even those who say that
one is required to eat meat on Yom Tov, might agree (based on yesterday's
parashah) that fish is included in meat - see Bamidbar 11:22, and the
He'emak Davar there. ?
?
As far as the hakpadah to eat meat by every seudah, frankly, I can't remember ever hearing it (and my black-hat credentials are impeccable. :-)? )
?
KT,
MYG
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By that thinking, what right is there to take down a rodef? Maybe he'll do 
teshuvah?

Rather, you judge the situation as it is right now, at this moment and leave 
the future to the future.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Zev Sero" <z...@sero.name>
Or the hijackers might have done teshuvah.  They were not robots, they were
moral agents, fully responsible for their actions, and thus capable of
changing them.  Therefore nothing was inevitable. 

RET wrote:

However, R Elyashiv disagrees. He says that since the pilot thinks he is
killing the enemy and doing a mitzva he can't be considered a rodef.

CM comments:

I think the classical case of the "innocent" rodef is that of the fetus
that puts his mother's life at risk mishna in Ahalos 7,7 and the gemara
(San. 72b) differentiates that it is mishamaya ka radfi lah. The principles
at play are ain dochin nefesh mipnai nefesh (and when it becomes a nefesh)
and rodef in the analysis of the difference where the fetus has, or has
not, already pushed out its head. Does R. Elyashiv explain why a mistaken
mitzva makes a difference - why is that any better than an innocent rodef?

There has been much ink spilled on this sugia so I won't try to put my two
cents in. But I would point you to several (of many) lengthy and
explanatory shuts and divrei torah on the subject from various recent and
earlier achronim that came up from a simple search on Bar Ilan CD using the
terms uber and rodef.

1) Shut Noda B'Yehuda Mhadura tnina Choshen Mishpat siman 59
2) R. Chaim Halevi on Rambam H. Rotzeach perek 1, halacha 9
3) Igros Moshe Y"D chelek b siman 60
4) Sridai Aish Sanhedrin siman 40 (see also his shut)
5) shut Yachel Yisrael siman 123
6) shut Shevet Halevi chelek 9 siman 266
7) shut Yabia Omer chelek 4 Even Ha'Ezer siman 1
8) shut Tsitz Eliezer numerous references
9) shut Chavos Yair siman 31

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster



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R' ZS:
Or the hijackers might have done teshuvah.  They were not robots, they were
moral agents, fully responsible for their actions, and thus capable of
changing them.  Therefore nothing was inevitable.

R' BW:
By that thinking, what right is there to take down a rodef? Maybe he'll do 
teshuvah?

Rather, you judge the situation as it is right now, at this moment and leave

the future to the future.
---------------------------


flying towards a collision course with a city, everyone in the plane -
however unwilling their participation - is considered a rodef relative to
the people in the city whose lives would be saved should the plane be shot
down. 
May we never be faced with these kinds of choices.

KT,
MYG



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