Avodah Mailing List

Volume 28: Number 7

Tue, 11 Jan 2011

• 1. Re: Are there any chemists on Avodah? (Hankman)
• 2. Re: Are there any chemists on Avodah? (Hankman)
• 3. translation of Na (Aryeh Herzig)
• 4. Re: translation of Na (Zev Sero)
• 5. Are there any chemists on Avodah (Hankman)
• 6. Re: Are there any chemists on Avodah? (Hankman)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] Are there any chemists on Areivim? (to (Hankman)
• 8. Re: worst aveirah (David Riceman)
• 9. Re: Prayer for Air? (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: worst aveirah (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: worst averiah (Micha Berger)
• 12. Re: Refusal to pay, BM 17a (Micha Berger)
• 13. Re: Fwd: b'Ito u'b'Zmano (Micha Berger)
• 14. Shinu Chakhamim Chiyuvo (Micha Berger)
• 15. Re: R Chiyya Raba (Micha Berger)
• 16. Re: There was no mechitzah at the Kotel (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Yayin Mevushal (Micha Berger)
• 18. Re: Matza made with < 50% rice or corn (Micha Berger)
• 19. Re: matzah in mitzrayim (Micha Berger)

RZS wrote:
The mizbeach was not solid stone. It was four stone walls surrounding
a hollow that was filled in with earth.  So the work would have been
tedious, but less so than you imagined.

CM responds:

Not according to my understanding.
What is your source that there were stones walls filled with earth rather
than a stone mortar-matrix thoughout the entire volume of the mizbeach. The
Tani Levi I mentioned in my original post that describes the construction
of the mizbeach makes no mention of any earth fill. The only shitos that I
can recall, speak of 1) wood walls clad in copper with earth fill (Mishkan,
and according to some Shilo etc), 2) copper over stone fill [not sure if
there was also a mortar in the stone fill, though I tend to assume so]
(Shilo according to some), 3) and to my understanding entirely of a
stone-mortar matrix (Bayis 1 and 2 and Shilo according to some [if I recall
correctly]).

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110111/713b691c/attachment-0001.htm>

CM:
: I found that that most assume it is only barzel and not other metals
: under this prohibition. I did not see many who disagree. I think the
: source is in the Michilta in a maimra of RYBZ who clearly states it is
: only barzel.

RMB responded:
I don't know how anyone could disagree. The original was nechoshes on
the outside. (And even named "mizbe'iach hanechoshes.)

CM responds:
I think you make a strong point, but the kashe is not on me, but on the Afarkasta De-Anya and the RMBM and the RAVD if his diyuk is correct.
One could bedochek answer that only hanafa is assur but not use b'atsmo as a component, but of course this is very dachuk due to the obvious kal vechomer.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110111/77ff9db6/attachment-0001.htm>

Although ChaZa"L say, in several places, Ein Na Ella Lashon Bakasha (Na is
can only be a manner of pleading), if you study all the places in TaNaCh
that the word appears, with few exceptions, the word can also be safely
interpeted as "now" or "immediately".
Raw meat is only eaten when one is very humgry and one can not wait for it
to be cooked.

Aryeh Herzig
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110111/ee08def3/attachment-0001.htm>

On 11/01/2011 8:07 AM, M Cohen wrote:
> this week's parsha has the word Na twice.
> once it means please (speak to pharaoh)
> the other time it means raw (korban pesach)
> the word is spelled identically - what is the connection between two?

Onkelos almost always translates "na", not as "please" but as "now".
Rashi in one place says "ein na ela leshon bakasha", but I've heard it
suggested that he means *this instance* of "na" means "please", rather
than the usual meaning.  At any rate, the connection between "now" and
"raw" is obvious.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher

RER wrote:
Substantial material about the construction of the Mizbeach can be found by 
Googling "Roman Concrete"

CM:
That was the best known of the "archeo concretes" I referred to in an earlier post in this thread.

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110111/def98061/attachment-0001.htm>

Rn'SLB wrote:
You may want to watch on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuFovhr4UQM

It's from Machon HaMikdash and towards the end it has a few moments showing
how they built the Mitzbe'ach including using pitch.

CM:
I had a quick look, and found it relatively uninformative. All you see (in
just a few seconds of the clip) is someone using a can to pour what looks
like some molten tar over some rocks in a non-to-scale mockup.

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110111/eb3bcd43/attachment-0001.htm>

Rn'SLB wrote:

 I realize that the translation to English of Zevachim 54a is such, but I
 couldn't find an online resource in Hebrew that translated any of the
 materials listed as "lead". 

CM responds:

Why do you not accept the Artscroll translation (of lead)?

Rn'SLB wrote:

 Pitch hardens after being heated (which is what I intended to say in the previous post).

CM responds:

I believe you have this wrong. Pitch does not harden with the application
of heat, it softens with the addition of heat. I believe what you are
erroneously referring to is the curing of asphalt concrete. Cooling of the
asphalt results in the hardening of it. However, in the curing process, the
heat is prolonged (to counteract the heat loss) somewhat, so the
temperature does not drop too rapidly but in a controlled manner and not
too rapidly and is reasonably uniform throughout the volume as the asphalt
loses heat through its surface to the environment. In this manner (curing
process) the cooling takes place in a fashion conducive to obtaining
optimum hardness of the asphalt. But heating asphalt will soften it, not
harden it. I think I have it right. 

How do you think they got the liquid tar they pour in the youtube video you cited, by putting it in the freezer?

Kol tuv

Chaim Manaster
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20110111/f8a60fb8/attachment-0001.htm>

RZS:
> >  Also, it's obvious that kibbush ha'aretz overrides PKN; otherwise it
> >  would be impossible.  The reason it's not listed among "the three" is
> >  simple: it's an asei, not a lo sa'aseh, so the language "yehareg ve'al
> >  ya`avor" is simply inapplicable.
RMB:

<<That's a logical guess. But just a guess.>>

See Minhath Hinuch #425 (harigas 7 amm'min) s.v. "v'kasav harav" (the very
final comment).  The Mchon Yerushalayim edition, footnote 2, points to
Hiddushei HaGriz al haTorah, Parshas B'Shalah (fortuitously).  I don't have
a copy of that book, but if anyone would care to summarize the relevant
passage I'd appreciate it.

David Riceman

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 11:27:03AM -0000, LReich wrote:
: Since nowadays at any one moment in 24 hours there are many travellers
: on planes, should we not add "Bein Bo'avir?"

KBY (I was there '83-84) uses/d the nusach "ha'omedim bein ba'avir,
bein bayam ubein bayabashah". IIRC, the placement was so as to not
require adding or removing a vav from the already existing words.

Speaking of shivyah, of the 7 MIAs one, Ron (ben Batyah) Arad, was taken
from the air.

Although I personally mumble the ammended text (without intent to
be obvious about it and thus poreish min hatzibbur), I could see the
following argument against it. "Hanesunim batzarah uvashivyah" while still
in the air is a pretty small window, and thus not likely to include anyone
at the time you're saying it. People are taken shevi during hijackings or
when their plane is shot down, but then they are taken to the ground. (Or,
Hashem yeracheim, flown into buildings and not captive very long at all.)
How likely is it that while the baqashah is being made, there is any of
acheinu beis Yisrael batzarah ubashivyah ba'avir?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "And you shall love H' your G-d with your whole
mi...@aishdas.org        heart, your entire soul, and all you own."
http://www.aishdas.org   Love is not two who look at each other,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      It is two who look in the same direction.

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 11:49:54AM -0500, David Riceman wrote:
: See Minhath Hinuch #425 (harigas 7 amm'min) s.v. "v'kasav harav"
: (the very final comment)....

Which speaks of sakanah, not yeihareig -- implying vadai.

Also, the MC you're citing is on the mitzvah of 7 ammim, and he explains
it in terms of their sinfullness. For that matter, between AZ and piquach
nefesh, one might argue that milkhemes mitzvah is vaguely derivative
of the yeihareig ve'al ya'avor nature of those two issurim. (Actually,
the Kenaanim were pretty big on all three.) And still he leaves it with a
"tzarikh iyun".

Milkhemes reshus is less explainable, more tzarikh iyun. So I went to 527,
the mitvah to perform a milkemes reshus appropriately. But no mention
there of sakanah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 09:52:55PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Just a note that pikuach nefesh overrides shabbat...

Piquach nefesh does not inherently override Shabbos. Shabbos overrides
Shabbos, and in the case of someone who isn't / doesn't have to be
shomer Shabbos, it's other mitzvos that override Shabbos (mishum eivah
and mipenei darkhei Shalom).

...
: We have "vechai behem" which says that pikuach nefesh overrides mitzvot
: between man and G-d but doesnt apply always to things that affect other
: human beings

Which implies that all else being equal, mitzvos BALC (bein adam lachaveiro)
are more chamur than mitzvos BALM. QED.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 6:31am EST, Yitzchak Schaffer wrote:
: That's just it; acc to Rashi, there's no denial, no lie on record. The
: edim say, be-fanenu teva'o li-feroa' lo ... /-lo para'./ Then, because
: he was me'iz la'avor a.p. BD, he's no longer ne'eman. So IHN, why le-fi
: Rashi is he called kafran if he never lied, and why le-oso mamon?

I think the problem is that you aren't being medayeiq in the case. To
quote your first post, from Wed, Jan 05, 2011 at 8:04am EST:
: On BM 17a Rav Zvid speaks of the following case: beis din orders a loveh
: to pay, he claims he paid, eidim testify he did not. Rashi fleshes out
: that the BD issued the order, then the malveh confronted the loveh before
: eidim, whereupon he /refused/ to pay...

But he doesn't claim he already paid. He says "ein lekha beyadi kelum".
Then after the eidim, "chazar ve'amar" (shades of another thread), he
change his story.

A says "B owes me 100 zuz."

B says "I do not owe A money."

B doesn't mention that he used to owe that 100 zuz until eidim force
him to admit there was once a loan.

As I said, it's like an anti-migo. If the guy were being honest, why
was he not giving the full truth?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             A wise man is careful during the Purim banquet
mi...@aishdas.org        about things most people don't watch even on
http://www.aishdas.org   Yom Kippur.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                       - Rav Yisrael Salanter

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 07:22:51AM -0800, Saul.Z.New...@kp.org wrote:
:> An eis is a time that comes according to a prescheduled appointment,
:> ready or not. It is a point in a shanah, in cyclic time that runs its
:> celestial heartbeat regardless of human action

: this  fits with  'b'ito achishena'...

Or not. One could say, "zakhu" if we manage to bring the process to
its culmination, then mashiach would come at that eis, and "lo zakhu",
HQBH will send him at the zeman.

:                                         but  would not then   'eis 
: laasos lashem'  imply that  certain down spiralling  of jewish behavior is 
:  pre-ordained,  as to yield the required  'hefeiru  sorasecha' ? or  would 
:  you read it  backwards  that  'hefeiru behaviour'   preordains 'eis 
: laasos' ?

Also, Rashi on Mishlei 3:1 implies the reverse. "Lakol zeman: The one
who gathers them from hevel should not rejoice that he has it now in
his posession. The tzadiqim will yet inherit it, but the zeman didn't
come yet. For everything has a zeman qavua' when it should be."

In any case, unless one of the chevrah knows the maqor, we're relying
on a memory already proven faulty.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The fittingness of your matzos [for the seder]
mi...@aishdas.org        isn't complete with being careful in the laws
http://www.aishdas.org   of Passover. One must also be very careful in
Fax: (270) 514-1507      the laws of business.    - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Back in Aug 13, 2002 <http://www.yerushalmionline.org/audio/172.mp3>
when RYGB was teaching Orlah 1:2 3b, he struggled with this explanation
for why orlah applied during the 14 years of Yehoshua's kibbush and
chiluq haaretz, but R' Yishma'el says that most of the mitzvos hateluyos
baaretz did not. The beraisa explains, that by orlah is says "bevo'akhem"
instead of the usual "ki savo'u". "Lefi shehinah hakasuv mashma'o,
shinu chakhamim chiyuvo" -- since the pasuq changes its language, the
chakhamim changed the chiyuv.

The difficult part is "the chakhamim changed the chiyuv", since the
chiyuv is deOraisa.

I could see this as support for the Rambam's shitah that derashos are
constructed according to the given rules, and thus are both rabbinic
inventions and yet also deOraisa.

However, when was this lemaaseh? For the first 14 years after they
crossed the yardein. A one time event. What is "shinah chakhamim"?
Who existed beforehand to pasqen differently?


Also interesting to note is that the gemara then asks on R' Yishma'el.
We have many cases where he makes a heqesh without quibbling about the
wording as long as the intent is the same. "Hi havayah hi haqamah",
"hi shevirah hi netitzah", "hi ge'ulah hi pediyah". So why here does
the change in conjugation matter, since the basic meaning is the same?
As the Y-mi often does, it moves on without having an answer.

I want to point this out, because it's the original meaning of "diberah
Torah belashon benei adam". Not the Rambam's usage about idioms in the
chumash (eg "Yad Hashem"). R' Yishma'el asserted that derashos must refer
to meanings, not wordings, since the wording is simply "lashon benei
adam". In contrast to R' Aqiva and his ribui umi'ut from appearance of the
word "es" or "akh" or "raq". To my mind this is the primary distinction
between R' Yishma'el's 13 middos shehaTorah nidreshes bahen, and R'
Aqiva's 19.

(And I want to point this out because I don't have a chavrusah to discuss
these things with. I'm learning Y-mi almost entirely during my commute,
barring yamim tovim and other long work-less stretches, with chazarah
using RYGB's MP3s. Be"H I should finish the entire seder Zera'im next month;
98% on "found time". It is no "qovei'ah itim letorah", but it's something.
Tangent: notice that use of the word "itim" for set times on the clock...)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "As long as the candle is still burning,
mi...@aishdas.org        it is still possible to accomplish and to
http://www.aishdas.org   mend."
Fax: (270) 514-1507          - Anonymous shoemaker to R' Yisrael Salanter

On Sat, Jan 08, 2011 at 06:50:19PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: R Chiyya died before Rebbe so why would one think that R chiyya cant
: disagree
: with Rebbe any less than other tannaim from that generation like R. Yishmael
: the son of R. Yose etc.
: R Chiya is generally consider a talmid-chaver of Rebbe

I realize from the discussion, my question is based on the assumption
that when the CI says the 2 millenia of Torah end with the composing of
the mishnah, that means the day the mishnah was "closed", the era ended.
The CI's model, it seems to me, isn't based on who is a tanna or who
is an amora, but which statement was made before that day, and which
statement was made after.

This explains Rav tanna hu upalig -- if Rav made most of his statements
before that date. Similarly, R' Chiyya Ruba.

But still, my point remains that the CI really speaks of dates of
decisions, not people.

As to dating R' Chiya Rubba... There are two R' Chiyas. There are stories
that place RCR contemporary with Rav and Bar Kaparah. However, just FYI,
R' Chiya of the 1st generation of amora'im is Rav's uncle; R' Chiya bar
Abba lived two generations later. I had to sort them out to figure out
that RCR was the earlier one.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When we are no longer able to change a situation
mi...@aishdas.org        -- just think of an incurable disease such as
http://www.aishdas.org   inoperable cancer -- we are challenged to change
Fax: (270) 514-1507      ourselves.      - Victor Frankl (MSfM)

On Fri, Jan 07, 2011 at 01:25:51AM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: 1. Davening at the kosel, when the population was tiny in comparison to  
: today's, was considered like davening at a kever.  There was no mechitza at  
: Kever Rochel or at Me'aras Hamachpela when I first visited those places...

Which is why I argued that at the time, none of the three were considered
batei keneses.

:                                                        IIRC there was  
: originally no mechitza in the BHM'K even, but the crush of people on yom tov  
: eventually necessitated that a balcony be installed for the women.

It was simchas beis hasho'eivah in particular. Not even davening.

However, that was dividing the ezras nashim. There was already an ezras
yisrael. R' Moshe Feinstein argues from this that mechitzah is deOraisa.
But even if deRabbanan, as most would say, you're just showing there was
life before the gezeira. Doesn't affect us.

: 2.  We cannot allow the goyim to keep us away from the kosel, our  holiest 
: site.  That alone is she'as hadechak...

I'm not sure that's valid reasoning. Dochaq doesn't mean that we have
a strong need that I'm not even sure is halachic (albeit I'll give it
aggadic merit); it means we are stuck.

And if you do stand by this argument, does this mean you would be okay
going onto the delineated areas of Har haBayis? I could easily argue
that today that's a parallel "she'as hadechaq" (goyim keeping us from
our holiest site)?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Between stimulus & response, there is a space.
mi...@aishdas.org        In that space is our power to choose our
http://www.aishdas.org   response. In our response lies our growth
Fax: (270) 514-1507      and our freedom. - Victor Frankl, (MSfM)

On Sun, Jan 09, 2011 at 02:46:49PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
> On 9/01/2011 12:18 PM, Alan Rubin wrote:
>> The grounds
>> for this ruling is that cooking would invalidate the wine for  avodah
>> zara.

> Indeed.  Presumably this was based on the AZ prevalent in Chazal's day.

There is another level of indirection. AZ defines yayin nesekh. Stam
yeinam is about preventing intermarriage, not AZ. Stam yeinam follows
the same rules in order to prevent confusion (AZ 30a).

Lemaaseh, I would think that creating rules of kashrus for bars is a
"blech" that could prevent intermarriage. (Had Reform not made a camp
between those who keep kashrus and most candidates for intermarriage.)
People are forced to think about din, even if they can find what to
drink (mevushal, beer, etc...)

I therefore don't think keeping the rules updated is really a priority
in terms of getting the job done.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One doesn't learn mussar to be a tzaddik,
mi...@aishdas.org        but to become a tzaddik.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 05:31:20AM +0200, Ben Waxman wrote:
: From: Meir Rabi 
:> Any one ever heard of Matza made with a large proportion of corn or
:> rice? for Ashkenazim?
:> Any reason other than tradition with a very small "t" for this?

: Sure there is; it is on sale every year, kosher for Pesach. But I have
: never seen shmura matza made this way.

Matzos mitzvah for non-Teimanim will always contain just flour and water
and nothing else.

As for qitniyos... R' Kook took it for granted that qitniyos, as long
as they're cooked within 18 minutes, should be okay. How can they be
any more assur than the 5 minim? It caused an uproar, this not being
how most of us pasqen.

An earlier matir was the SA haRav.

However, most are noheig not to eat qitniyos even if they never got
wet. So there is no way to bake them into matzah. (See this article
by R' Yaaqov Luban and R' Eli Gersten noting this paradox:
<http://www.ou.org/index.php/jewish_action/article/67027>.)

It is interesting, but perhaps my speculation is valueless, to map the
machloqes against the various reasons given for the minhag of qitniyos:

Those who were afraid of flour that might be in the qitniyos due to
shared silos would logically say that the qitniyos can be no worse than
flour. Any flour in my peas would be baked within 18 min of getting wet,
so I'm okay.

Those who base it on Rava not allowing the use of lentil flour by amei
haaretz (Pesachim 40b) lest they get confused, and bring up the whole
"anything makable into a porrige might be confused with wheat" would
perhaps have reason to be stringent regardless of how long it's wet.
After all, dry qitniyos rise no slower than wet qitniyos. (In the sense
that both don't.)

Side note about porridges: This dates back to a period in the Dark Ages
when the dominant culture Ashkenazim lived amongst had lost so much
science and technology that many towns didn't have a mill that could
produce baking-quality flour. People's diet shifted to a lot more porriges
and gruel, as bread went up in price. (Bread didn't make a comeback for
the commoners until the 15th cent.) This would explain why porridge is
used as a definition of what is too grain-like for Pesach.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is a glorious thing to be indifferent to
mi...@aishdas.org        suffering, but only to one's own suffering.
http://www.aishdas.org                 -Robert Lynd, writer (1879-1949)
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Fri, Jan 07, 2011 at 01:46:05PM -0800, dan...@kolberamah.org wrote:
> I thought that pshat was that they were not actually obligated in matzah 
> the year of yetzias mitzriayim.  Otherwise, what does it mean that they 
> didn't have time to make bread? ...

I think there was no issur chameitz for 7 days, but the night before
they had to eat a qorban pesach -- "al matzos umorerim yokhluhu" was
said about that year in particular in Shemos 12:8. And repeated ledoros
in Bamidbar 9:11.

So, the question of how they obtained shemurah matzah for that night
is to my mind still open.

Maybe it's something trivial, like Jews who grew wheat in Goshen,
and thus weren't impacted by barad. (Sorry for that pun.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Feeling grateful  to or appreciative of  someone
mi...@aishdas.org        or something in your life actually attracts more
http://www.aishdas.org   of the things that you appreciate and value into
Fax: (270) 514-1507      your life.         - Christiane Northrup, M.D.


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 28, Issue 7
*************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."