Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 222

Thu, 23 Dec 2010

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:44:20 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mayim Achronim


On 21/12/2010 9:44 AM, Goldmeier wrote:
> moved over from an areivim thread due to content turning to a more
> torah-oriented point...
>
> On 21/12/2010 4:31 AM, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
>> I think it's fair to say that Chareidi/Yeshivish/Chasidic women don't, as a
>> rule, wash Mayim Acharonim either. Which (that at least 50% of religious
>> Klal Yisroel don't wash Mayim Acharonim) tells me that the Minhag is not to
>> wash, and that those who do are being Machmir.
>
> why not?
> if mayim achronim is a chova, as the SA says (not my minhag personally,
> but not the point), where is the exemption for women? Does mayim sdomis,
> or the chiyuv, not apply to women somehow?

And yet the fact is that the tradition of women is not to wash.  As RAS
said, the fact that his mother didn't wash is all the evidence he needed
that it's OK for women not to wash.

My point in the Areivim thread was that when a woman does everything her
mother and grandmother did, then when she doesn't wash MA she has a
perfect excuse - her mother and grandmother didn't do it, so why should
she?  But when a woman doesn't do everything her mother and grandmother
did, then she doesn't really have that excuse.  And so when she *does*
wash MA she doesn't need to have some special reason; the fact that the
SA says she should is enough.  And I think the same applies to Chanukah
lighting; when a woman who is modern in her ways, i.e. isn't relying on
"torat imecha", decides to light candles, all the justification she
needs is in the SA, and it's not appropriate to demand an explanation or
to impute motives to her.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher



Go to top.

Message: 2
From: "The Goldmeiers" <gldme...@rcn.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 14:42:22 -0600
Subject:
[Avodah] mayim achronim


yekkes never accepted the "chumra" or "chova", not b/c of melech s'domis, 
but b/c we used silverware.   :)

ok, sorry for the old joke, it fit so well here.

shaya goldmeier  (rafi's less mature yet older brother)




Go to top.

Message: 3
From: Yitzchok Zirkind <yzirk...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 15:54:05 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Mayim Achronim


On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 9:44 AM, Goldmeier <goldme...@012.net.il> wrote:
> if mayim achronim is a chova, as the SA says (not my minhag personally,
> but not the point), where is the exemption for women? Does mayim sdomis,
> or the chiyuv, not apply to women somehow?

See also: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9755&;st=&pgnum=147

[Vayevareikh David, cheileq 1, OC siman 30. The mechaber, R' Yisroel Dovid
Harfenes, is a dayan on the His'achdus haRabanim Beis Din, and the rav
of Yisrael Vehazmanim, both in Williambsurg. He authored at least a
dozen sifrei shu"t. -micha]

-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind



Go to top.

Message: 4
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Tue, 21 Dec 2010 14:07:02 -0800
Subject:
[Avodah] nittel doche shabbos?


i believe  minhag chabad is that  nittel is doche  torah  friday  nite. i 
wonder how other  chassidim [ since  we have  previously established this 
is a chassidish minhag --- if anyone has  found  a litvishe mossad  who 
holds this way  , please identify it] treat  friday  night.....  needless 
to say,  kurtenshpielen and tearing toiletpaper  can't be the friday nite 
nittel  activity......


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20101221/ad2ae04b/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 5
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 01:22:53 EST
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Bizayon HaMeis




 
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
On 20/12/2010, Moshe Y. Gluck  wrote:

> Isn't it considered Bizayon HaMeis for a [nachri] to be  involved in any
> aspect of the Kevurah?

Lechatchila, yes.   But is it me'akev?  Isn't it far better to be buried
by such a chevra,  in which such a person may well be a member, than to
just be buried by a  random funeral home doing who-knows-what?


-- 
Zev  Sero                       
z...@sero.name                 



>>>>
 
 
Practically speaking, something like 90% of the taharos we do in our chevra 
 kadisha (I live in Miami) are for non-O Jews.  If their families had a C 
or  R chevra kadisha to turn to, they might opt for that instead of an 
Orthodox  tahara.  It would be a yerida, not an aliyah, for Miami to have a  
non-Orthodox CK.  
 
In a town so small that it doesn't have a chevra kadisha, perhaps a non-O  
CK which includes people who are not halachically Jews might be preferable 
to  nothing at all -- certainly preferable to embalming or  cremation.  
 
But let us not kid ourselves that a C or R tahara is a  tahara, esp when 
the members are not Jewish, any more than you could  be yotzei kiddush by 
hearing it from a C-R convert or fulfill the mitzva of  bris by having it done 
by a C-R convert mohel (you would need hatafas dam and  new brachos),  or 
drink arba kosos using wine made by C-R converts.   Is a tahara that is not a 
tahara any better than no tahara?  Marginally  better at best.   If you argue 
that a tahara doesn't halachically  have to be done at all but is just a 
minhag and shows kovod hameis, then I guess  it doesn't matter as much who 
does it.   I'm not sure that would  be a mainstream O argument.
 

--Toby Katz
==========



-------------------- 





-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20101222/0f99109f/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 05:57:39 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Bizayon HaMeis


On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 01:22:53AM -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
: Practically speaking, something like 90% of the taharos we do in our chevra 
: kadisha (I live in Miami) are for non-O Jews.  If their families had a C 
: or  R chevra kadisha to turn to, they might opt for that instead...
: In a town so small that it doesn't have a chevra kadisha, perhaps a non-O  
: CK which includes people who are not halachically Jews might be preferable 
: to  nothing at all -- certainly preferable to embalming or  cremation.  

I'm reminded of the person who is one step outside the Miqdash, but
still qualifies as having been sepaqared from Qorban Pesach by a "derekh
rechoqah", and thus may bring one on Pesach Sheini.

I think that unless C embraces the concept of performing a taharah,
many Jews will consider it something the O do, and even if available,
won't avail themselves. As for whether there would be a net gain,
I suppose that depends on the specifics of the town's population, and
on the meticulousness of the C's chevrah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507



Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 06:12:56 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Are "Gedolim Stories" Good for Chinuch?


On Thu, Dec 9, 2010 at 8:35:13AM -0500, Prof. Levine wrote:
:                         Either we are surprised to see great people 
: behave in a human and kindhearted manner, or we consider it to be an act 
: that only a true tzaddik can achieve.

I think a problem with it may be authors whose writing doesn't reflect their
own belief in the message being transmitted.

Here's an example, from my Google Reader this morning (I'm leaving out
the URL so as not to publically castigate the site):

    Even in his last moments on earth, Rav Yisroel Salanter spent his
    time thinking about the feelings of others. In his final illness as
    he lie in bed in Koenigsberg, he had a man attending his needs. On
    the last day of his life Rav Yisroel turned to this simple man and
    started talking to him about the fear people have to be alone with
    a dead body. Rav Yisroel told him that it is a really foolish fear
    since a dead person cannot do anything.

    A few hours later Rav Yisroel was niftar and lo and behold there
    wasn't anyone else around at the time, and the attendant was alone. It
    became clear to the attendant that the strange conversation he had
    had with the Tzaddik a few hours ago was meant to dispel his fears
    that would engulf him later that day.

    Surely Rav Yisroel who knew his time was near was deep in thought
    about life and death, tshuvah and torah. Yet he had the presence of
    mind in his weakened condition to concern himself with the possible
    fear of another person. (HaMi'oros HaGedolim)

With one simple word, they defeat the entire lesson. To really reflect
the message RYS left us, that last paragraph should have read:
    Surely Rav Yisroel who knew his time was near was deep in thought
    about life and death, tshuvah and torah. THEREFORE he had the presence
    of mind in his weakened condition to concern himself with the possible
    fear of another person.

By saying "yet", the author makes it clear that deep down he thinks
that this concern for his gabbai (who likely wasn't a "simple man")
is a break from thinking about Torah -- the exact reverse of the point
of the story, and the message most readers would end up internalizing.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter



Go to top.

Message: 8
From: Saul Guberman <saulguber...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 09:36:12 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Bizayon HaMeis


On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 23:22, :

> Moshe Y. Gluck asked:
> > Isn't it considered Bizayon HaMeis for a [nachri] to be involved in any
> aspect of the Kevurah?
>

I took a quick look in the Pnai Yehoshua under Bizayon Haimeis and did not
see this listed.  I do recall learning that the above is considered a
bizayon.  Maybe the Biyzayon is that the immediate family  & community could
not take care of their responsibility themselves.

As to RTK's more general concern, I would think it cuts both ways.  If many
of the people doing the taharas are not halachically Jewish then many of the
people having taharas done on them are not halachically Jewish.  Also, if a
C or R community has a Chevra Kaddisha, there will be more awareness &
education in that community regarding traditional Jewish practices in this
areas.  This will lead to more people following these practices.

Saul
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20101222/0c7f9201/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 9
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 10:53:17 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Bizayon HaMeis


On 22/12/2010 1:22 AM, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> But let us not kid ourselves that a C or R tahara is a tahara, esp
> when the members are not Jewish

Is that the case, though?  Does it matter, bediavad, who did the tahara?
If it could be done by a robot, or by RHS's proverbial kesuba-reading
parrot, would it matter?  The actions are the same; lechatchila it would
be nice to have them be done by frum Jews with lofty kavonos, but at the
end of the day why is it not a tahara if it's done by someone else, with
who-knows-what kavanos?


> any more than you could be yotzei kiddush by hearing it from a C-R
> convert

Kiddush is a mitzvah.  Since when is *receiving* tahara a mitzvah?
Matzas mitzvah must be baked by a Jew, lesheim mitzvah.  Ordinary matzah,
however, can be baked by anyone, and it doesn't matter what they were
thinking.  So long as it was baked without chimutz it's kosher.  Lu
yetzuyar that a machine could be built that answered all of the Divrei
Chaim's unstated objections, he would have approved it himself.  Why is
tahara like matzas mitzvah rather than like ordinary matzah for eating
the whole yomtov?



> or fulfill the mitzva of bris by having it done by a C-R convert mohel
> (you would need hatafas dam and new brachos)

Really?  Mina hani mili?  It seems to me on the contrary, that so long
as it was done lesheim yahadus it doesn't matter, bediavad, who did it.
IIRC this was the Chief Rabbinate's psak WRT the Ethiopian immigrants;
that since their milah had been done lesheim yahadus, under the mistaken
impression that both they and the mohel were already Jews, there was no
need for hatafas dam bris.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher



Go to top.

Message: 10
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 21:56:00 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] electricity on shabbat


from areivim:

http://
www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2010/12/people-of-the-e-book-observa
nt-jews-struggle-with-sabbath-in-a-digital-age/68289/>>

Today I went to see a design museum in Holon (very interesting).
They displayed high-tech clothing with electronic chips inserting in the
clothing.
Some were interactive and automatically reacted to the environment.
In particular one cannot photograph the person since the chips automatically
blur the reflection.

Would such clothing be prohibited on shabbat? since one is not actively
doing
anything but the embedded chip reacts automatically. Some of the responses
are to play some music which I assume is prohibited as making sounds on
shabbat.


-- 
Eli Turkel
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20101222/8dbc1b7c/attachment-0001.htm>


Go to top.

Message: 11
From: Yosef Skolnick <yskoln...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 14:52:48 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Are "Gedolim Stories" Good for Chinuch?


I think the yet is actually more appropriate.  To have the presence of mind
to actually get out of your own thoughts just at the moment when most people
are most self absorbed, 'their last minutes, when they are sick and scared'
to be able to think about someone else is quite extraordinary and worthy of
note.  This is not required nor expected of a torah jew, and therefore the
'yet' is appropriate.

Anyway, the torah here is not referring to "torah" in the overall sense of
the word but I would assume limud hatorah. "life and death, tshuvah" all
fall into the category of torah as well.

Yosef Skolnick
https://sites.google.com/site/yskolnick/




Go to top.

Message: 12
From: "Akiva Blum" <yda...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 23:02:49 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Are "Gedolim Stories" Good for Chinuch?


> From: On Behalf Of Micha Berger
> Sent: Wednesday 22 December 2010 1:13 PM

>     Surely Rav Yisroel who knew his time was near was deep in thought
>     about life and death, tshuvah and torah. Yet he had the presence of
>     mind in his weakened condition to concern himself with the possible
>     fear of another person. (HaMi'oros HaGedolim)

> With one simple word, they defeat the entire lesson. To really reflect
> the message RYS left us, that last paragraph should have read:
>     Surely Rav Yisroel who knew his time was near was deep in thought
>     about life and death, tshuvah and torah. THEREFORE...

> By saying "yet", the author makes it clear that deep down he thinks
> that this concern for his gabbai (who likely wasn't a "simple man")
> is a break from thinking about Torah -- the exact reverse of the point
> of the story, and the message most readers would end up internalizing.

I don't know. When I read this story, I see that Rav Yisroel felt that the
feelings of others take precedence over personal tshuvah and torah. The
story teaches us what a godol knows to be the correct approach. Perhaps we
may feel, or have felt otherwise, but that is exactly what the story does
teach us.

Akiva




Go to top.

Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 06:21:39 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Are "Gedolim Stories" Good for Chinuch?


On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 11:02:49PM +0200, Akiva Blum wrote:
: I don't know. When I read this story, I see that Rav Yisroel felt that the
: feelings of others take precedence over personal tshuvah and torah. The
: story teaches us what a godol knows to be the correct approach. Perhaps we
: may feel, or have felt otherwise, but that is exactly what the story does
: teach us.

I see RYS as teaching over his lifetime that the guarding the feelings
of others is the epitome of personal teshuvah and Torah. It can't "take
precedence" unless you see them as being in conflict. RYS certainly
didn't.

My belief is that when people within Tenu'as haMussar repeated the story,
that was the original point of the maaseh as well.

On Wed, Dec 22, 2010 at 02:52:48PM -0500, Yosef Skolnick wrote:
: Anyway, the torah here is not referring to "torah" in the overall sense of
: the word but I would assume limud hatorah. "life and death, tshuvah" all
: fall into the category of torah as well.

Naniach teshuvah, but life and death are metzi'us. Although, just to confuse
matters, concern for other's feelings is also part of teshuvah...

In any case, we don't need to guess on intent. The person who adapted the
story from RDKatz's "Tenu'as haMussar" gave me an email "shkoiach!" for
the comment -- which was approved and appended to the web page.
http://www.revach.net/stories/gadlus/Rav-Yisro
el-Salanter039s-Thoughts-As-Death-Loomed-Near/4875

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie



Go to top.

Message: 14
From: "SBA" <s...@sba2.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 10:05:47 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] "Yesimcho Elokim k'Efraim vechiMenashe"


A short piece on parsha Vaychi in Ksav Sofer al haTorah - from what he said
at the Bar Mitzva of his son - the Shevet Sofer.

Efraim - symbolizes  the duty of a parent to imbue his child with Torah and
Yiras Shomayim while Menashe represents his duty to train him to be "a
mentch", have manners and to teach him a trade for his parnoso.

But - "Vayosem es Efraim lifnei Menashe"  - first comes "Efraim" - Reshis
Chochmo yiras Hashem". Ayen shom, he says it far better than I do. 
(If anyone wants a scan of the vort - email me.)

Wouldn't it be great if today's Gedolim would emulate the KS by emphasizing
the importance of both the Efraim and the Menashe...?
OTOH, imagine the reaction by some (especially in EY) to such a statement
by a leading Rav and RY..

SBA




Go to top.

Message: 15
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2010 14:57:39 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Brisk and Telz


The new issue of Kol Hamevaser ("The Jewish Thought Magazine of the Yeshiva University Student Body") just came out. Here's a teaser for my article
<http://www.kolhamevaser.com/2010/12/brisk-and-telz>:

    At some point during my time in Yeshiva University, I chose not to
    follow the more popular "track," leading to R. Hershel Schachter's
    and R. J. B. Soloveitchik's shi'urim. Instead, upon my return from
    Israel for my junior year, I joined R. Dovid Lifshitz's shi'ur,
    where I remained until my graduation from Yeshiva. A large part of my
    motivation was that my great-grandfather, R. Shlomo Zalmen Birger, had
    a kloyz, a small beit midrash, in Suvalk, and Rav Dovid, the Suvalker
    Rav, knew him and remembered my family. However, the primary impetus
    of that decision was my sense that something inherent in the Brisker
    derekh did not speak to me, whereas Rav Dovid's derekh ha-limmud was
    that of his rebbe, R. Shimon Shkop, a variant of the Telzer derekh,
    which was a methodology that did speak to me. I do not claim that I
    could have articulated this clearly at the time, but I have given a
    good deal of thought to the matter since and hope to explain it now,
    as well.
    ...
    Fundamental to Brisker philosophy is the idea that Halakhah has no
    first principles. It can only be understood on its own terms. As
    R. Soloveitchik describes in Halakhic Man, it is only through Halakhah
    that man finds a balance between his religious need for redemption
    and his creative, constructive self....
    ...
    The Brisker derekh gave the post-Haskalah (Enlightenment) observant
    Jew a mental experience that compared to the thrills of scientific
    study. The Telzer derekh gave him the excitement of philosophical
    study and connected his learning and mitsvah observance to his quest
    to be a better Jew.

    Loosely along similar lines, Rav Hayyim Soloveitchik, known as Rav
    Hayyim Brisker, rejected the argument in favor of accepting Radziner
    tekhelet (blue dye used in tsitsit) because it was a scientific one,
    not halakhic in basis. Accordingly, Halakhah is itself the primary
    basis -- non-halakhic argument is irrelevant.

    This distinction is also manifest in the two derakhim's approaches
    to going beyond the letter of the law. The Brisker view on humra,
    stringency, is one where the person is "hoshesh le-shittat peloni
    almoni," concerned for the position of so-and-so. It is the notion
    that while the baseline law is lenient, one may want to "cover
    all the bases" and satisfy all opinions. In Telz, a humra would be
    chosen based on a person's plan for shelemut, an awareness of what
    personal flaws he is ready to address, and the identification of
    opinions that can be related to them.

    R. Soloveitchik famously declared that "there is no ritual in
    Judaism;" he saw no reason for additional rituals....
    ...
    To R. Soloveitchik, kavvanah and religious experience can
    only authentically come from following Halakhah. The notion of
    extra-halakhic spiritual experience does not fit the Halakhic Man's
    framework.

    In short, Brisk asks the scientist's "Vos?" (What?), and Telz asks
    the philosopher's "Far vos?" (Why?). In my own desperate search for
    a more meaningful avodat Hashem, worship of God, I found it much
    more easily in the latter.

--
largely create

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The worst thing that can happen to a
mi...@aishdas.org        person is to remain asleep and untamed."
http://www.aishdas.org          - Rabbi Simcha Zissel Ziv, Alter of Kelm
Fax: (270) 514-1507


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 222
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."


< Previous Next >