Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 190

Mon, 01 Nov 2010

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 15:39:03 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Marriage and Love


Prof. Levine wrote:

> The song Love and Marriage is one that Frank Sinatra made famous.
> ...
> However, it seems that from a Torah standpoint the song should have
> been titled Marriage and Love.

That's only if one looks at Yitzchak and Rivka, as you did in that post.
But if one looks at Yaakov and Rachel, it seems that "Love and Marriage" is
also valid.

Someone one pointed out to me that from Yitzchak and Rivka, we see one
extreme of the shidduch process. And from Yaakov and Rachel we see the
other extreme of the dating process. And we know absolutely nothing about
how Avraham and Sarah met and courted. The conclusion that might be drawn
is that the Torah is emphatically NOT teaching a "one size fits all"
approach to these matters.

Akiva Miller


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Message: 2
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 11:16:55 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How much for the mayo?


I wrote, "Then there is a din against profiteering in d'varim sheyeish
bahem chayei nefesh." That is, in such matters the din assesses a
"maximum allowed profit, which is a one-sixth markup." As the g'mara
states in Bava Basra 90a, "hamistakeir al yistakeir yoseir mish'tus." To
the best of my knowledge, this means one-sixth mil'bar, what the seller
paid for it, and not one-sixth mil'gav, what the buyer buys it for."

It was pointed out to me off-list that the Rav Shulchan Auch writes that
the one-sixth is indeed mil'bar. However, I interchanged the meanings of
the terms. Mil'bar (literally, from outside) means that the additional
amount, when added from the outside, becomes one-sixth of the total --
what we would call one-fifth. Thus, for an item which cost $30, the
seller may charge $36, so that his $6 profit is one-sixth of the sale
price. Mil'gav (lit., frpm inside, and is probably properly pronounced
"mil'go) means that the additional amount is one-sixth of what is already
there, or $5, so the sale price would only be permitted to go as high
as $35.

EMT



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Message: 3
From: "Prof. Levine" <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 13:00:30 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] A Question About Yitzchok Taking a Canaanite Wife


Bereishis 24: 3 says I will make you swear by God, the God of heaven 
and the God of earth, that you will not take a wife for my son from among the
daughters of the Canaanites in whose midst I dwell.

Did Avraham really think that if Eliezer brought Yitzchok a Canaanite 
woman to be his wife that Yitzchok would have accepted such a 
Shidduch?  Surely Avraham must have told Yitzchok that a Canaanite 
woman would not make a suitable wife for him and surely Yitzchok, who 
knew the type of people that the Canaanites were, would not consider 
a Canaanite woman for his wife.

If this reasoning is correct, then I do not understand why Avraham 
made Eliezer take this vow. Why not make Eliezer take a vow that he 
would take a wife for Yitzchok from Avraham's family?

I have no answer.

YL
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Message: 4
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:41:19 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Rashbi and full time learning


RMB wrote:
> The SC says that Rashbi only held of Torah only when he left the cave
> the first time. Then he looked up, killed someone, went back in for
> a year -- where he learned a derekh of fusing Torah into olam hazeh.
> The gemara in Berakhos is quoting Rashbi after the first departure
> from the case, but the Y-mi has Rashbi after the 2nd departure
> from the cave. And thus Rashbi's final masqanah is the same as
> R' Yishma'el's -- go get a job!

R'Yoel Bin Nun says the same thing: RSBY went through an evolution in
his thinking.

However, rather than take the ma'hloqet between him and RY as the core
issue in RSBY's thinking, he looks at the conversation that led to
RSBY retreating into a cave. At stake was:How do we react to/deal with
the failure of the Bar Kokhba revolt and the fact that the polytheist
Romans will now definitely set the tone for a long time. See the good
the Romans do and adapt? Accept begrudgingly? Or retreat from society
because it is irreparably broken, until the tides change? RSBY went
for the latter. Eventually, however, he realized that there is a third
way: under Roman occupation, forge a Jewish society that advances
slowly but surely and tries to build that society up as much as
possible, while rejecting the objectionable.

While I am not entirely convinced of how he shoehorns R'Y and R'SBY's
disagreement into his all over framework, he does bring enough
evidence to show that he is onto something big.

The shiur is available in mp3, I believe it is the following one:
http://www.ypt.co.il/show.asp?id=28908

KT,

-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Basler Gymnasium experimentiert mit Chawrut?-Lernen
* Where Will We Find Refuge ... from technology overload
* Video-Vortrag: Psalm 34
* We May Have Free Will, After All
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* Brutal Women of Nazi Germany
* Gibt es in der Unterhaltungsliteratur eine Rolle f?r G"tt?



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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 14:29:12 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How much for the mayo?


On 31/10/2010 5:37 AM, David W. Eisen wrote:
> I had a similar incident involving my recent trip to the States. I
> went shopping in a certain outlet mall that had a store of a
> particular brand that my son's friend had asked if we could purchase
> there a certain shirt for him. Neither my son nor I intended on buying
> anything in that store, but a particular shirt also caught my eye, and
> that day the store had a 50% discount on the price of a shirt when
> buying an additional shirt at the full price. Both the shirt my son's
> friend asked that we buy for him and the shirt that I ended up being
> interested in were being sold for the same price. I bought both shirts
> with the 50% discount on the second shirt. In all honesty, I would not
> have bought the shirt for my self at the retail price, and it was only
> the discount that provided the incentive for making the purchase.

Your question was about hilchos ribbis, not hilchos shlichus.  At the end
of the teshuvah, RYC mentions as an aside that you weren't a shliach to
buy this shirt, and that had you been a shliach it would have been different.
SA Harav, Hil' Mechira #11, says that if a shliach gets a windfall through
his shlichus, he should share it with the meshaleach.  RYC doesn't say why
you were not a shliach, but perhaps one reason is because the "meshaleach"
didn't give you money with which to buy the shirt for him.

RTK's case with the mayo is completely different, because at the time she
took the discount she was acting entirely for herself.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                      - Margaret Thatcher



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Message: 6
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:15:41 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] V'hu Rachum Authorship


Avodas Yisroel (Roedelheim 1868, p. 112) quotes a manuscript dating to 1407
that V?hu Rachum was authored by three people from the Yotzei Yerushalaim,
who were exiled by ???????? ???? ?????, which refers to, I think, Vespasian.
The problem I have with that is that:
a. Hadrian is the one who was usually referred to with the epithet ????
?????, and,
b. Hadrian is the one who crushed Yerushalaim in the time of Bar Kochva;
Vespasian wasn't even in Eretz Yisroel in the time of its first capture - he
left and his son Titus took over.

So I see four possibilities:
1. R' Seligman Baer misquoted the manuscript he copied from, and it should
have said Hadrian.
2. It really did say Vespasian, but this author who he's quoting (R' Yehuda
Bar Eliezer Tzvi, student of R' Menachem Shatz of Troyes) was happy that
Vespasian's bones be also crushed
3. The author of the manuscript (R' Yehuda, above) should have written
Hadrian, but he mixed the two up;
Or, most likely:
4. My ignorance of all things historical is showing itself, and I'm
completely missing the boat.

Can anyone help? (I have not yet found anyone else besides Avodas Yisroel to
bring this version of V'hu Rachum's origin, so I have nothing to compare
to.) (Cced some people I thought might be able to shed some light here.)

KT,
MYG




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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 17:41:03 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] V'hu Rachum Authorship


On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 05:15:41PM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: Avodas Yisroel (Roedelheim 1868, p. 112) quotes a manuscript dating to 1407
: that V'hu Rachum was authored by three people from the Yotzei Yerushalaim,
: who were exiled by ???????? ???? ?????, which refers to, I think, Vespasian.

Transliterations, for those who don't get Hebrew:
Aspesainus sechiq atzamos

: The problem I have with that is that:
: a. Hadrian is the one who was usually referred to with the epithet ????
: ?????...

Sechiq atzamos

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 8
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 23:57:50 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Translation/Interpretation


RJoel Rich asks:
 
>Tehilim 116:16 contains the phrase: "ani avdecha ben amatecha"
>Rashi says "eino domeh tarbut eved halakuach min hashuk l'ylud mishpacha shebabayit"
>In this context how would you translate tarbut?

     I would imagine it is in the same sense as it is used in B'midbar
     32:14, "V'hinei kamtem tachas avoseichem, tarbus anashim chata'im,"
     where the Targum renders the word as "talmidei," and Ibn Ezra relates
     it to "asher tipachti v'ribisi" (Eicha 2:220, a pasuk in which Rashi
     interprets "ribisi" as "gidalti."	Hence, the meaning would be
     bringing up, rearing.

EMT

 
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Message: 9
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:46:12 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Translation/Interpretation


R' Joel Rich:
Tehilim 116:16 contains the phrase: "ani avdecha ben amatecha"
Rashi says "eino domeh tarbut eved halakuach min hashuk l'ylud mishpacha
shebabayit"
?
In this context how would you translate tarbut?
---------------



KT,
MYG




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Message: 10
From: Yitzchok Zirkind <yzirk...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 19:34:07 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] V'hu Rachum Authorship


This version can be found in many places including the Pirushei haTfila of
the Rokeach.

A brief on-line search will show that this term is found also about:
Nvuchadnetzar - Yerushalmi Megila 7:7, Maseces Sofrim 14:7
Turchinas - Eicha  Rabba Parsha 1
Rufus (Turnsrufus?) - Yerushalmi Taanis 4:5

According to Eicha Rabba Ksav Yad Rome, printed by S. Buber it says about
Espasyonus this title, even though in footnote 392 he thinks that over there
is should say Adriyonus.

This is by no means an exhaustive answer or list.

Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind

2010/10/31 Moshe Y. Gluck <mgl...@gmail.com>

> Avodas Yisroel (Roedelheim 1868, p. 112) quotes a manuscript dating to 1407
> that V?hu Rachum was authored by three people from the Yotzei Yerushalaim,
> who were exiled by ???????? ???? ?????, which refers to, I think,
> Vespasian.
> The problem I have with that is that:
> a. Hadrian is the one who was usually referred to with the epithet ????
> ?????, and,
> b. Hadrian is the one who crushed Yerushalaim in the time of Bar Kochva;
> Vespasian wasn't even in Eretz Yisroel in the time of its first capture -
> he
> left and his son Titus took over.
>
> So I see four possibilities:
> 1. R' Seligman Baer misquoted the manuscript he copied from, and it should
> have said Hadrian.
> 2. It really did say Vespasian, but this author who he's quoting (R' Yehuda
> Bar Eliezer Tzvi, student of R' Menachem Shatz of Troyes) was happy that
> Vespasian's bones be also crushed
> 3. The author of the manuscript (R' Yehuda, above) should have written
> Hadrian, but he mixed the two up;
> Or, most likely:
> 4. My ignorance of all things historical is showing itself, and I'm
> completely missing the boat.
>
> Can anyone help? (I have not yet found anyone else besides Avodas Yisroel
> to
> bring this version of V'hu Rachum's origin, so I have nothing to compare
> to.) (Cced some people I thought might be able to shed some light here.)
>
> KT,
> MYG
>
>
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Message: 11
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 20:43:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] V'hu Rachum Authorship


On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 05:15:41PM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: Avodas Yisroel (Roedelheim 1868, p. 112) quotes a manuscript dating to 1407
: that V'hu Rachum was authored by three people from the Yotzei Yerushalaim,
: who were exiled by ???????? ???? ?????, which refers to, I think, Vespasian.

Someone emailed me off list to look at Tikkun Tefillah, which brings a
girsa that Titus was the one, not Vespasian. That answers all the questions
except for the fact that Titus wasn't either, I believe, referred to with
the epithet "Sachik Atzamos." 

KT,
MYG




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Message: 12
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:11:15 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Marriage and Love


R' Akiva Miller:
Someone one pointed out to me that from Yitzchak and Rivka, we see one
extreme of the shidduch process. And from Yaakov and Rachel we see the other
extreme of the dating process. And we know absolutely nothing about how
Avraham and Sarah met and courted. The conclusion that might be drawn is
that the Torah is emphatically NOT teaching a "one size fits all" approach
to these matters.
---------------



:-)

KT,
MYG




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Message: 13
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 Oct 2010 21:13:38 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] A Question About Yitzchok Taking a Canaanite


R' YL:
Did Avraham really think that if Eliezer brought Yitzchok a Canaanite woman
to be his wife that Yitzchok would have accepted such a Shidduch?? Surely
Avraham must have told Yitzchok that a Canaanite woman would not make a
suitable wife for him and surely Yitzchok, who knew the type of people that
the Canaanites were, would not consider a Canaanite woman for his wife. 

If this reasoning is correct, then I do not understand why Avraham made
Eliezer take this vow. Why not make Eliezer take a vow that he would take a
wife for Yitzchok from Avraham's family?
---------------


(this was before Skype). So Eliezer could have picked a random Canaanite,
schooled her in the right behavior and/or language and/or genealogy, and
passed her off as someone from Avrohom's family.

KT,
MYG





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Message: 14
From: Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:07:02 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Marriage and Love


On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 5:39 PM, kennethgmil...@juno.com <
kennethgmil...@juno.com> wrote:

Someone one pointed out to me that from Yitzchak and Rivka, we see one
> extreme of the shidduch process. And from Yaakov and Rachel we see the other
> extreme of the dating process. And we know absolutely nothing about how
> Avraham and Sarah met and courted. The conclusion that might be drawn is
> that the Torah is emphatically NOT teaching a "one size fits all" approach
> to these matters.
>

We don't know how Avraham and Sarah courted, but since they were close
relations we can probably assume they knew each other from childhood -- so
this is a third valid model! It's less common today, but not unheard of: for
example Nehama Leibowitz z"l was married to her uncle.
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Message: 15
From: Marty Bluke <marty.bl...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 17:07:01 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] Rashbi and full time learning


The Brisker Rav is printed in his sefer on Chumash I believe on Parshas
Chayei Sara
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Message: 16
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Nov 2010 12:37:35 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Marriage and Love


On Sun, Oct 31, 2010 at 03:39:03PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: That's only if one looks at Yitzchak and Rivka, as you did in that
: post. But if one looks at Yaakov and Rachel, it seems that "Love and
: Marriage" is also valid.

It also depends what emotion destabilized Rivqa off her camel. Was
she afraid of Yitzchaq, that he was too great for someone like her?
Was it awe and excitement about the holiness of the man she was to
marry?

It's quite likely her attraction began before the wedding as well.

I think much of the issue is in our defining the word "love", or to be
more on topic for Avodah, "ahavah". Even in couples that marry after
social dating, or shidduch-dating but waiting for an "attraction", the
love they feel then is an entirely different emotion than what bonds a
couple after two dozen years of living life's roller-coaster together.

Are they both "ahavah"?


BTW,
Yaaqov marries in 2192
Rachel is nifteres in 2208
They were only married 16 years.

Leah passes away in 2214
Marriage was only 22 years.

For a man who lived 147 years, for very little of his life did he have
an eizer kenegdo.

Rivqa lived until 133 (Sifri, VeZos haBerakhah). Which means she and
Yitzchaq were a couple for at least 119 years (Tosafos Yevamos 61b,
"vekhein"). More if you find a way around Tosafos's problem and combine
this with a different medrash about her being born during the aqeidah,
and thus married at 3.

Yitzchaq's marriage played a totally different part in his life than
either of Yaaqov's.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When faced with a decision ask yourself,
mi...@aishdas.org        "How would I decide if it were Ne'ilah now,
http://www.aishdas.org   at the closing moments of Yom Kippur?"
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter


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