Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 108

Wed, 28 Apr 2010

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:31:59 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Stop illegal dumping of religious


R' Micha Berger wrote:

> R' Pam told R' Matis Blum that me'ikar hadin, Torah periodicals that
> are usually not kept for a later re-read, such as parashah sheets,
> that don't actually contain sheim Hashem don't require burial.

If they are not kept for a later re-read, what DO people do with them?

Are we saying that because people discard these periodicals, we are therefore allowed to discard them? Isn't that circular reasoning?

> The fact that we generally treat divrei Torah with more respect
> than torn taliosos is offset by the fact that it was never intended
> to be permanent.

If it was not intended to be permanent, then what WAS the intention? That they should be discarded?

I honestly do not see any distinction between the typical Parsha Sheet
handed out in shul, vs. any randomly chosen halacha sefer printed by
ArtScroll or Feldheim, or even a Gemara. They all have little or no Hebrew
(though I suppose Aramaic might count as a lashon kodesh). They all avoid
ever having any of the Seven Names Which May Not Be Erased. They all *are*
used for learning Torah. What is the distinction which some claim allows
one to go to the garbage while the other needs genizah?

Akiva Miller


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Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:41:41 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Stop illegal dumping of religious items in


On Mon, Apr 26, 2010 at 05:31:59PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: R' Micha Berger wrote:
:> R' Pam told R' Matis Blum that me'ikar hadin, Torah periodicals that
:> are usually not kept for a later re-read, such as parashah sheets,
:> that don't actually contain sheim Hashem don't require burial.

: If they are not kept for a later re-read, what DO people do with them?

Unfortunately, RAP is no longer with us to ask. So, I'll guess at his
intent (obviously RMBlum's guess would be of greater value):

They keep them around because they are waiting for later sheimos
collection. And RAP's point is that while this is nice, it's not
obligatory.

You also omit the "usually", which brings use to your later question.

: I honestly do not see any distinction between the typical Parsha
: Sheet handed out in shul, vs. any randomly chosen halacha sefer printed
: by ArtScroll or Feldheim, or even a Gemara

Temporary items do not receive the same qedushah. The gemara's textbook
case is erasing a sheim Hashem written on the beach below the high
tide line.

If the printer can assume that MOST copies are read-once, then he isn't
making permanent product. Therefore, even the few that are kept for
rereading don't have the qedushah of an English sefer.

I am guessing the above was what RAPam had in mind, but it's the line
of reasoning in two shu"t Bar Ilan's web site found: Meishiv Davar 2:80,
and Ein Yitzchaq 5:7.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 27th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507               taking control result in relationship?



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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 15:15:07 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] [Areivim] Stop illegal dumping of religious


kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> R' Micha Berger wrote:
> 
>> R' Pam told R' Matis Blum that me'ikar hadin, Torah periodicals that
>> are usually not kept for a later re-read, such as parashah sheets,
>> that don't actually contain sheim Hashem don't require burial.
> 
> If they are not kept for a later re-read, what DO people do with them?
> 
> Are we saying that because people discard these periodicals, we are therefore allowed to discard them? Isn't that circular reasoning?

Pretty much.  That they were never intended for more than one use, and
therefore were created al tenai that they could be disposed of afterwards.
I believe this is based on a psak from the early days of printing, when
the question was what to do with galleys and misprinted or miscut sheets,
etc. 



-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher



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Message: 4
From: Arie Folger <arie.fol...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 23:20:04 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Women Readers


RYLevine asked:
> In his book A World in Ruins Hermann Schwab writes on page 181
>
> "A weatherworn gravestone at Worms tells of the harmonious voice
> of a woman reader. In the early Middle Ages, women were to be
> found at the Reader's desk in synagogues which were separated
> from the men's synagogues."
>
> Does anyone know anything about this? I have never heard of this.

The synagogue in Worms, until the renovation of the 19th century, used
to have fully separate men's and women's sections, connected only by a
small window at a height of about fifteen-twenty feet. There was, I
believe, also a window at shoulder level, but which was generally
closed or almost closed. Visitors to the reconstructed Worms synagogue
can still see pictures of the old setup.

With such a setup, the women heard nothing from the men's sectino, and
instead employed a zugerke or vortzoigerin, i.e., a female prayer
leader whose job it was to make sure that all women were praying at
roughly the same pace as the men. I guess she stood next to the window
between the sections, and could hear where they were through a narrow
opening.

This is documented, for example, in the book In the Palace of teh
King,, a collection of essays on women's prayer, not necessarily by
Orthodox scholars, IIRC.


Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Helping Patients Face Death, She Fought to Live
* Neuer Audio-Schi'ur, zum 91. Psalm
* Significant Recent Manuscript Finds
* Ansprache anl?sslich des G?ttesdienst in der historischen Synagoge
von Endingen
* Burgeoning Jewish Life in Central Europe
* Raising Consciousness by Dressing Babies Outrageously



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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:47:00 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Women and Torah Scholarship


On Sun, Apr 25, 2010 at 03:02:08PM -0700, Harry Maryles wrote:
: One of the real hot-button issues in Orthodoxy today was precipitated
: by Rabbi Avi Weiss when he ordained the first Orthtodox female rabbi
: (rabba). He was immediately condemned by Agudah and the RCA followed up
: by threatening to expell him from membership.

But that's a different topic than the title, or the examples from
Maqor Barukh. The question of women learning was asked of the CC, and
by the time we get to the 1970s, RYBS gave a shiur in gemara, and the
LR allowed (a weaker position) study of gemara by those baalos teshuvah
who craved it. Of course, many hold differently, but that's not a new
topic.

Yoatzot aren't new either.

Having women serve in rabbinic or near-rabbinic roles is a whole different
discussion.

Of the examples only these two appear relevent:
: * A certain Rosh HaYeshiva in Baghdad, Rav Shmuel HaLevi had an only
:   daughter who was fuent in Chumash and Gemarah and gave Shiurim to men
:   behind a window where they could not see her.

: * The Marshal cites a similar example about his grandmother who directed
:   a Yeshiva for many years giving Shiurim to advanced students from
:   behind a Mechitza.

But then, Nechama Leibowitz (no title only because they were known to
annoy her) was of that mold. And she not only avoided anything remotely
like the rabbinate, she followed RAYK's pesaq (Maamerei haRe'ayah 189-194)
against women voting!

(Mind you RAYK also was machmir on "kol hamelamed bito Torah" and Beis
Yaaqov teaching anything but halakhah lemaaseh for homemakers. (I don't
have a mar'eh maqom, but it's in Ein Ayah discussing Yalta (R Nachman's
wife), so probably around Nidah 20b or Qiddushin 70a.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 27th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        3 weeks and 6 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Yesod sheb'Netzach: When does domination or
Fax: (270) 514-1507               taking control result in relationship?



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Message: 6
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 14:12:19 -0700
Subject:
[Avodah] bibliography


http://seforim.blogspot.com/2010/04/benefits-of-internet-besamim
-rosh-and.html
this review  of  besamim rosh  related  issues   points  out  at the end 
that  when  comparing  manuscripts, be careful of relying on 
hebrewbooks.org; and there are other sources for old  manuscripts....

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Message: 7
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2010 17:42:31 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] The Women's Synagogue in Worms


The Worms Synagogue definitely had a separate synagogue for women. 
See http://www.sacred-destinations.com/germany/worms-synagogue

Then click on the link in the right under the top photo 
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/germany/worms-synagogue-photos/

As you go through the photos note 
http://www.sacred-destinations.com/germany/worms-synagogue-ph
otos/slides/xti_4573 
and some of the following photos.

YL




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Message: 8
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 12:47:05 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] More on What Constitutes Chillul Hashem?


There is a section on Chillul Hashem in RSRH's Horeb. See 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/horeb_chillul_hashem.pdf

 From this it seems to me that any action or deed, whether illegal or 
legal, that in any way casts anything negative on Judaism is a Chillul Hashem.

Is this conclusion wrong? If so, please let me know why and what 
actions that reflect negatively on Yahadus are not a Chillul Hashem.


Yitzchok Levine 
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Message: 9
From: Danny Schoemann <doni...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 21:50:02 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] 2 sinks vs. 2 fridges


If you had the choice between a kitchen with 2 sinks or a kitchen with
2 fridges, as a frum Yid, which would you choose?

I was sure that the answer was:
Surely 2 sinks - since washing meat and milk dishes in the same sink
is a hassle - requiring sink inserts. The fridge is cold, so what's
could go wrong there?

After reading Yorah De'ah 95:3 - 6 I suspect that 2 fridges may be the
more correct thing to do.

It appears to me that:

- (95:3-4): Washing meat and milk dishes together is not really much
of a kashrus problem unless the water is without soap and above Yad
Soledes and there's fatty residue involved.

- (95:5-6): Putting dishes with meat next to dishes with milk in the
same box is not allowed - especially if they are not properly sealed.
(At least in Israel milk comes in bags and is therefore "open" once
the corner is cup open.)

So should we buy a second fridge to replace one of our sinks?

- Danny, Pessach Sheni, 29th day of the Omer.

Danny Schoemann
Goldknopf 41/6, Ramat Shlomo, Jerusalem
http://mitzvoh.blogspot.com



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Message: 10
From: Saul Mashbaum <saul.mashb...@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 22:24:16 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] Kiddush in shul Friday night


RSM
The Mechaber had some success in having his [negative] view on Kiddush in
shul on Friday night accepted among Nusach Ashkenaz communities: this
practice is virually unknown in EY

RBWaxman
>Is this because of the Beit Yosef or Talmidei HaGra?

I'm not sure, but the result is the same, in the Mechaber's favor.

The Shmirat Shabbat K'Hilchata  on this subject pointed me to a very brief
interesting tshuva by Rav Tzvi Pesach Frank, Har Tzvi OCh volume I seif 153.
The Har Tzvi was asked if a Nusach Ashkenaz shul in Holon could
institute  Kiddush
in shul on Friday night. He said that this could be done (based on the MA
OCh 269), but it could not be done in Yerushalayim. He gives no reason for
this distinction; he apparently felt the minhag  not to Kiddush in shul on
Friday night is more firmly established in Yerushalayim elsewhere.

I've never seen in done here in Israel, in Yerushalayim or elsewhere.

Please see the Har Tzvi at
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20947&;st=&pgnum=176&hilite=

Saul Mashbaum
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Message: 11
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 15:59:26 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] More on What Constitutes Chillul Hashem?


Yitzchok Levine wrote:
> There is a section on Chillul Hashem in RSRH's Horeb. See 
> http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/horeb_chillul_hashem.pdf   
> 
>  From this it seems to me that any action or deed, whether illegal or 
> legal, that in any way casts anything negative on Judaism is a Chillul 
> Hashem.

This begs the question.  "Negative" is a subjective term; it depends in
whose mind something is negative.  The mah-yoffis-yidden limineihem
imagine that the privileged frame of reference is that of the goy, or
the secular Jew; anything he regards as negative is a chilul haShem.
Thus we have the paradox that keeping mitzvos and Jewish minhagim in
the face of opposition, which is the very *definition* of kiddush
haShem, becomes defined as "chilul haShem", while compliance with
their expectations at the expense of our own is somehow a "kiddush
haShem".

It gets worse when the privileged frame of reference isn't even a
real goy, but rather an imagined goy who so worships the law that he
despises anyone who would dare to break it.  The stereotypical German,
of course, fits this mould, which explains a lot about the 1930s and
'40s.  But in most countries the average person breaks the law
himself as often as he finds convenient, and certainly doesn't look
down on others just for doing things that are illegal.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher



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Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 27 Apr 2010 16:09:54 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] 2 sinks vs. 2 fridges


Danny Schoemann wrote:

> - (95:5-6): Putting dishes with meat next to dishes with milk in the
> same box is not allowed - especially if they are not properly sealed.
> (At least in Israel milk comes in bags and is therefore "open" once
> the corner is cup open.)

Not allowed?  It says it *is* allowed, and the Ramo merely says that
it should be avoided if possible.  But that's "next to"; do you not
have separate shelves in the fridge for milchigs and fleishigs?  And
don't you cover the milk jug, to stop random debris from falling in?



-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher



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Message: 13
From: "M Cohen" <mco...@touchlogic.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:25:35 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] How does criminal law function in a Torah state


(rejected from Areivim and sent to Avodah) 

 

RDB wrote... Let it be said immediately -Torah Judaism is *not* fearful of
the possibility of running a State based on Torah and Halacha ..I have no
doubt at all that a consortium of Rav Eliashiv, Rav Chaim Kanievsky, Rav
Zilberstein, Rav Asher Weiss, Rav Zalman Nechemia Goldberg, Rav Neventzahl,
Rav Simcha Kook, Rav Hershel Schachter etc, could tackle any issues based on
Halacha.

 

I've always wondered how a Torah state would handle criminal law.

 

It's clear that monetary laws could run according to SA, but it's also clear
that criminal law could NOT run according to basic Torah law.

 

(very few rapists/murderers/thieves plan to do their crime in front of 2
kosher witnesses)

 

In order to prevent civil anarchy, one could not protect society based on
Torah criminal law, but would have to use the concept of 'makin v'onshin
shlo min hadin'

 

Is this a hefker principle?  

Does every Bais din do what it feels like, with no system rules or
guidelines?

If a Dayan decides to kill someone based on very flimsy evidence, is there
any recourse?

 

Or is there now a new secondary system put into place to handle 'makin
v'onshin shlo min hadin'

(with rules for evidence, sentencing guidelines, courts of appeal, etc etc)

 

..Basically a criminal justice system similar to the what each nation has
currently set up today

 

thoughts?

 

btw, RDB pointed me to Tzitz Eliezer 19:51 who discusses at length the
concept of 

'makin v'onshin shlo min hadin'

 

Mordechai Cohen

 

 

 <http://www.touchlogic.com/> http://www.touchlogic.com
 /images/logo.gif

M. Cohen
VP Development
30 Kinnear Court, Suite 202
Richmond Hill, ON  L4B 1K8
(905) 707-0207 x 120
 <mailto:mco...@touchlogic.com> mco...@touchlogic.com
 <http://www.touchlogic.com> www.touchlogic.com

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Message: 14
From: "Rich, Joel" <JR...@sibson.com>
Date: Wed, 28 Apr 2010 14:53:56 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How does criminal law function in a Torah state


The King (and according to R' Kook IIUC any authority the people designate
for leadership)  has the responsibility for civil order and would set up a
system designed to ensure its maintenance (makin vonshin...)
KT
Joel Rich
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