Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 55

Wed, 24 Feb 2010

• 1. women's issues in O (Saul.Z.New...@kp.org)
• 2. Shabbat-B'Shabbato: Can Beauty and Eternity Join Forces? (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: Self-imposed exile by rabbonim (David Riceman)
• 4. Re: kol hamosif, gorea (hankman)
• 5. Ramban and chance (David Riceman)
• 6. Re: kol hamosif, gorea (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: kol hamosif, gorea (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: do gentiles have more teeth (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: kol hamosif, gorea (Rich, Joel)
• 10. Re: kol hamosif, gorea (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: do gentiles have more teeth (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: kol hamosif, gorea (Rich, Joel)
• 13. Re: kol hamosif, gorea (David Riceman)
• 14. Tefillah Zakah (was: Revenge and Punishment) (Arie Folger)
• 15. A New Women's Vaad (The AishDas Team)
• 16. A New Women's Vaad (The AishDas Team)
• 17. Re: Do gentiles have more teeth than Jews? Do they have less? (T613K@aol.com)

http://text.rcarabbis.org/?p=761
r  helfgot  on whether the arguments  on this  issue  are  more  halachic, 
or  fall under the rubric of  sociological argument...
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100221/cf0423e3/attachment-0001.htm>

As long-timers know, the question of the role of aesthetics in Yahadus is
something that instrigues me. "Yaft E-lokim leYefes, veyishkon be'ahalei
Sheim." Is that a rejection? A call for partnership?

Here is a thought on the subject. If anyone has access to Machanayim,
Sivan 5755, where RYS discusses the thought at more length, please let
me know.

-micha

Shabbat BeShabbato
Translated by: Moshe Goldberg
Published by the Zomet Institute of Alon Shevut, Israel
Under the auspices of the National Religious Party
...
GUEST COLUMN
Can Beauty and Eternity Join Forces?
Rabbi Yeshaya Steinberg
Rabbi of Ramot Sharet, a teacher in Yeshivat Hakotel
and Head of Ziv Hatorah Institute, Jerusalem

Moshe's name does not appear in this week's Torah portion. Some explain
this as the response to Moshe's statement, "Eradicate me from Your book"
[Shemot 32:32] -- see Baal Haturim. Others note that this portion is
read close to the date of Moshe's death, on the seventh of Adar. We
will try to show that there is another reason for Moshe's name not to
appear, one that is related to the contents of the Torah portion, which
includes the first discussion of the issue of beauty as a holy value:
"Aharon's garments, for the purpose of glory and splendor" [28:2].

Rashi finds it difficult to explain the form of the Ephod, the vestplate,
and he summarizes as follows: "My heart tells me" that it is like
riding clothes worn by ladies. How is it that Rashi was familiar
with the fashions of the women of French high society? According to
legend, in his attempt to understand the form of the Ephod, Rashi went
outside. Suddenly, a group of noble girls rode by in a flash, forcing
him to stand close to the wall. He could not avoid looking at the girls
and their clothing. He returned home in an agitated state, wondering,
"Why did G-d do this to me?" And he decided that it had been a way for
G-d to show him the form of the Ephod.

The conclusion is that the verse, Rashi, and all of us together are
involved in external appearance -- glorious clothing. Why should this
matter to us? After all, isn't it true that "Grace is false, and beauty
is vain" [Mishlei 31:30]?

Since nothing has been created without some purpose, and certainly
not the power of beauty, it must be that the Torah can show us how to
sanctify this too. "This is my G-d and I will glorify Him" [Shemot
15:2] -- make yourself beautiful with mitzvot. For this reason the
sages praised the Temple which was built by Herod, which was the most
beautiful structure in the world (Bava Batra 3a). Mitzvot and holiness --
concepts which are abstract and foreign to the physical world -- need
beauty in order to help the people like them. The fact that the High
Priest has an advantage over the other priests in his outer appearance
gives him an opportunity to act as both "our messenger" and as "G-d's
messeger." Aharon, who is described by the trait of "hod" -- glory --
has a reputation of being loved by all and of pursuing peace. Beauty
and glory are tools for bringing separate elements close together and
for creating general harmony, as is seen from the fact that the service
of G-d is meant to be appreciated by the masses. Rabbi Kook felt that
esthetics and cleanliness are the most important way to decorate a
mikveh. He explained that a mikveh is perceived as an anachronism, and
may therefore cause women to refuse to immerse themselves, and this is
why attractive elements are needed in a mikveh. The same approach is
also true of synagogues and holy vessels. This is clear from all the
artistic items found in Jewish museums.

This is all relevant for the "pillar of holy service." It is not found in
relation to the "pillar of Torah." For this reason, Aharon, the messenger
who forms a bridge between beauty and holiness, is characterized by the
trait of glory. The trait of Moshe -- the essence of Torah itself --
is Netzach, eternity, shrouded in mystic purity of the future. Glory and
beauty fade with time, they are not "eternal." Caesar's daughter could
not restrain her astonishment at seeing Rabbi Yehoshua, and she cried
out, "How can such great wisdom reside in such an ugly vessel?" [Taanit
7a]. The rabbi's reply was that a vessel made of gold will harm wine that
is put into it and will also become black itself. This is not true of a
simple cup made of glass. The inner secrets of Torah do not need external
enhancements, which can even cause it harm. Only "holy service," which is
also meant for the simple people, must be combined with external beauty.

The Torah portion of Tetzaveh, the repository of beauty, is not a
suitable place for Moshe. And this explains why he chose to be erased
from this portion.

(I have always wondered if Shai Agnon, in his story "Two Torah Scholars
who Lived in Our City," was influenced at all by the differences between
Aharon and Moshe. After all, he named the character with no external
presence Moshe Pinchas...)

Purim, which is approaching, is a source for study about beauty. It
is a holiday of "garments," an external view that is typical of the
descendents of Rachel. Mordechai, as Yosef before him, is well versed in
worldly matters, the seventy languages of the world, and he eventually
wears glorious and beautiful garments. Evidently the statement "We
are still slaves of Achashverosh" is the price of excessive need for
worldly tools. Perhaps this is the reason that the ultimate redeemer
is not the son of Yosef but the son of David, a descendent of Leah and
not Rachel. External beauty carries with it the danger of hiding an
internal truth. And when the truth does appear -- in Rachel, in Yosef,
and in those who continue his path -- it is short-lived and does not last
for all eternity. The mitzva of remembering Amalek, the important mitzva
related to Purim, is related to eternity because it involves redemption
-- when G-d's name and His throne will achieve their complete form (see
Shemot 17:16). Esav is conquered by the sons of Rachel, but Amalek falls
into the hands of Mashiach, son of David, because Leah has "great gifts."

(See the above ideas in an expanded form in my article "Esthetics in
the Approach of the Maharal," Machanayim, Sivan 5755.)

Shayna Korb wrote:
> Does anyone have any sources on rabbonim putting themselves into exile 
> and wandering around? I heard that the Gra did this and that it was a 
> custom at the time, but I am looking for sources inside.
In Rabbi Maimon's book "Toldot HaGra" there's a chapter on this called 
"HaGra holech bagolah".  The classic exemplar of the fruits of such 
exile is RaMaK's little book "Sefer Gerushin", though my impression is 
that his exile was less extreme than those practiced in eastern Europe.

David Riceman

R'n TK wrote:

Another argument could also be made, viz., that anything that is
demonstrably true -- e.g, the laws of physics that enable planes to fly,
or laws of biology that enable farmers to grow better crops and improve
their livestock -- is intrinsically part of Torah, that everything in
the natural world was created by Hashem and therefore is part of Torah,
"Histakel be'Oraisa ubara alma."

CM writes:

I have speculated along similar lines and in addition to "Histakel
be'Oraisa ubara alma" that you quoted I also considered the Rashi on
"behiborom" - "behaiborom" where he brings the pasuk b'yud'hai Hashem zur
olomim, so that the sodos (and its natural laws of  math, physics, chem,
bio etc) of this bria are "somehow" found in the os hai, but obviously
buried very deeply so only gedolei olam can deduce them via limud Torah.
But I would then remain with the problem of why there is not any evidence
of advanced math (I do not mean merely the value of Pi or the square root
of two, but Calculus, Diff Eq., Diff Geom., etc. etc.) or physics (Newton,
Maxwell, Relativity, Quantum Mechanics, particle physics etc), chemistry (
post Mendeleev based on subatomic, atomic and molecular structure and
energy concepts etc), biology (at a sub cellular and biochemical level) etc
in any of divrei Chazal that I am aware of. Why was there not more
invention (as we have today) for  toeles (to lighten
  the burden on people and leave more time for limud torah) if they were in
  fact able to derive the natural laws from the sodos of Torah. Do not trot
  out the Gra or the CI of our era who were post Newton and the scientific
  awakening (and whose scientific and mathematical writing was fairly
  restricted) etc. I am talking about two or three millennia ago when we
  had neviim and Chazal who without a doubt had as clear an understanding
  of sodos in Torah as any living person will have. We should  have had in
  reality what was fabled in legends about the scientifically advanced
  Atlantis.

I could only imagine that for some reason these notions were known to
chazal and deduced from their limud of Torah but not revealed since they
were considered as being "sodos" of Maaseh Beraishis.  However, I could not
understand why? If Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Watson & Crick et al.
could reveal them why not Chazal? The only alternative to this is that
Chazal did not have any better scientific knowledge than the rest of the
world around them, but this is rejected by the chareidi world. So all I
have are questions but no satisfying answers. (Or perhaps flesh out the
Zohar mentioned previously in this thread, explaining WHY only after
5600??).

Enter Slifkin ....  but we all know how that went....

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster


-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100222/37ff16d7/attachment-0001.htm>

I've been trying to recall a passage where the Ramban discusses random 
events.  RDE in his book refers to Breishis 18:19, which is very useful, 
but I have a vague recollection of something in the peirush on Iyyov 
which is cited by the Recannati in his peirush on Humash.  Does anyone 
recall a more precise citation?

Thanks,

David Riceman

I could only imagine that for some reason these notions were known to
chazal and deduced from their limud of Torah but not revealed since they
were considered as being "sodos" of Maaseh Beraishis.  However, I could not
understand why? If Newton, Maxwell, Einstein, Watson & Crick et al.
could reveal them why not Chazal? The only alternative to this is that
Chazal did not have any better scientific knowledge than the rest of the
world around them, but this is rejected by the chareidi world. So all I
have are questions but no satisfying answers. (Or perhaps flesh out the
Zohar mentioned previously in this thread, explaining WHY only after
5600??).

Enter Slifkin ....  but we all know how that went....

Kol Tuv

Chaim Manaster


=======================
Want to think about something- is it coincidence that R' Chaim's analytical
approach paralleled the thought process in the "scientific" world (so much
so that his detractors within the world of learning ccalled him "the
chemist")?
KT
Joel Rich

________________________________
As of February 22, our New York Office is now located at:
333 West 34th St.
New York, NY 10001-2402
All telephone and fax numbers (and e-mail addresses) will remain the same.
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20100222/69adbdfd/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 05:20:36PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Want to think about something- is it coincidence that R' Chaim's
: analytical approach paralleled the thought process in the "scientific"
: world (so much so that his detractors within the world of learning
: ccalled him "the chemist")?

I think it was a strategic decision. In order to keep bachurim in
yeshiva rather than heading off to university, the methodology of gemara
study that attracts the same talmidim would become popular.

-Micha

On Sat, Feb 20, 2010 at 07:38:14PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: Midrash Talpiyot was authored by Rabbi Eliyahu ben Shlomo Avraham, and
: was published in 1698.
: hardly qualifies as chazal

If it's a true medrash, the conditional I put in before as well, then it
was redacted or collected in 1698 -- from maamarei chazal found
elsewhere.

: 2.  R Chaim Kanevesky quotes R. Y. Zilberstein that some dentist
: actually uses this difference
: in teeth to identify Jews. So it is not being used merely theoretrically

He repeats a rumor. However, it looks like the question involved was a
way to matir healing an unconscious patient on Shabbos, since he would
have 32 teeth.

The bottom line is, though, that you're bringing our interest in halakhah
lining up with scientific realia (or in my case, lining up with the world
as observable without mediation of tools), and criticising someone else
who apparently doesn't share that assumption.

If RCK thought that the medical reality were important, he would go to
medical authorities. He asks engineers about the devices used Shabbos,
psychologists about the contents of 12 Step programs, doctors about
piquach nefesh, etc...

This one case he is relying on what he believes to be a maamar chazal
that we don't have recorded until the end of the 17th cent CE. It's not
a pattern. So the question is what's missing from our analysis.

I proposed one possibility -- that he cares more about living according
to chazal than making statements based on physical reality. That that's
how halakhah ought to work. I'm open to others.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
mi...@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 05:20:36PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
: Want to think about something- is it coincidence that R' Chaim's
: analytical approach paralleled the thought process in the "scientific"
: world (so much so that his detractors within the world of learning
: ccalled him "the chemist")?

I think it was a strategic decision. In order to keep bachurim in yeshiva
rather than heading off to university, the methodology of gemara study that
attracts the same talmidim would become popular.

-Micha
_______________________________________________
Which would imply that R' Chaim was influenced by the secular/scientific
world, which iiuc would not be an acceptable explanation to the Torah Only
approach which our R' Chaim (Manaster) was referring to.
KT
Joel Rich


As of February 22, our New York Office is now located at:
333 West 34th St.
New York, NY 10001-2402
All telephone and fax numbers (and e-mail addresses) will remain the same.
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

On Mon, Feb 22, 2010 at 06:23:24PM -0500, Rich, Joel wrote:
:> I think it was a strategic decision. In order to keep bachurim in
:> yeshiva rather than heading off to university, the methodology of gemara
:> study that attracts the same talmidim would become popular.

: Which would imply that R' Chaim was influenced by the secular/scientific
: world, which iiuc would not be an acceptable explanation to the Torah
: Only approach which our R' Chaim (Manaster) was referring to.

Not at all, which is why I phrased that last clause in the passive.

I think R' Chaim's derekh is the product of how R' Chaim's mind worked.

Its popularity was a strategic decision -- they saw what drew the boys.
Brisker derekh fit the zeitgeist. Either someone noticed that consciously,
as implied by my words "strategic decision" or someone simply noted its
success at retaining boys where other darkhei limud were losing them
to universities.

And besides, it takes very little knowledge of what is taught in a
university to get the broad brushstrokes of how its methodologies differ
from the lack-of-system that is pilpulistic reasoning. It doesn't really
threaten the Torah-Only approach to admit /that/ much awareness.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It is our choices...that show what we truly are,
mi...@aishdas.org        far more than our abilities.
http://www.aishdas.org                           - J. K. Rowling
Fax: (270) 514-1507

\
I proposed one possibility -- that he cares more about living according to
chazal than making statements based on physical reality. That that's how
halakhah ought to work. I'm open to others.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
Which implies that HKB"H would purposely set up a system where halachic
reality and physical reality diverge for no apparent reason (your tools
thing could be a reason but doesn't explain the teeth case).  I'd be
interested in a meta explanation from those who hold this shita as to why.
KT
Joel Rich

As of February 22, our New York Office is now located at:
333 West 34th St.
New York, NY 10001-2402
All telephone and fax numbers (and e-mail addresses) will remain the same.
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

And besides, it takes very little knowledge of what is taught in a
university to get the broad brushstrokes of how its methodologies differ
from the lack-of-system that is pilpulistic reasoning. It doesn't really
threaten the Torah-Only approach to admit /that/ much awareness.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

--
I would disagree since aiui the ultimate gadol in that approach is one who
never was exposed to anything but torah thought so that he is "kulo torah"
- to say that an approach from outside was brought inside is a huge pircha
imho - but we should ask someone of that school (who by definition wouldn't
be on the internet?)
KT
Joel Rich

As of February 22, our New York Office is now located at:
333 West 34th St.
New York, NY 10001-2402
All telephone and fax numbers (and e-mail addresses) will remain the same.
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

hankman wrote:
>> I could only imagine that for some reason these notions were known to 
>> chazal and deduced from their limud of Torah but not revealed since 
>> they were considered as being "sodos" of Maaseh Beraishis.

Me:
> But then you also have to explain why Hazal and rishonim accepted 
> doctrines that were accepted by scientists of their time but which we 
> have subsequently rejected; e.g. H. Yesodei HaTorah 3:1.

And, even worse, you need to explain why Hazal would be willing to deprive
the world for so long of so many life saving innovations like vaccination,
refrigeration, and the green revolution.


hankman wrote:
> I could only imagine that for some reason these notions were known to 
> chazal and deduced from their limud of Torah but not revealed since 
> they were considered as being "sodos" of Maaseh Beraishis.

But then you also have to explain why Hazal and rishonim accepted 
doctrines that were accepted by scientists of their time but which we 
have subsequently rejected; e.g. H. Yesodei HaTorah 3:1.

David Riceman

R'n TK wrote:
> Others may be  found in the Tefillah Zakah recited just before Yom
> Kippur.  This  tefilla was composed, according to ArtScroll, by R'
> Avraham Danzig, author  of Chayei Adam, so I will take him as an
> authority for what kinds of sins one  [need not] [may not]
> forgive, when someone has harmed you.

Eh, bim'hilath kevod torateikh and toratam, that is AFAIK demonstrably
wrong. R'Avraham Danzig copied Tefillah Zakah verbatim from Sefer
'Hemdat Yamim. However, do not blame Artscroll, who have wonderful
talmidei 'hakhamim doing great research. The problem is that since
'Hemdat Yamim includes a text by Nathan of Gaza, Shabtai Tzevi's
"prophet," therefore, 'Hemdat Yamim was taken to be Sabbatean.
Apparently scholars no longer belive that it is Sabbatean, but the
author was obviously sufficiently undiscriminate to question the
authority and trustworthiness of the entire work. Hence, later
publishers removed the fwe words where R' Avraham Danzig had stated
clearly where Tefillah Zakah was taken from.

About a year ago I checked a new edition of the 'Hayei Adam and saw
that the controversial phrase was back in the book, along with a
footnote explaining how some felt 'Hemdat Yamim was a problematic
source, and then the publisher waxed poetic on what a wonderful sefer
it really is.

Peirush Rashi: R' Avraham Danzig did not write that prayer, and some
or many people refrain from saying it, choosing a vidui from a more
worthy source, instead.

However, AFAIK, Tefillah Zakah contains nothing particulalry
objectionable, nor anything that is wrong, so for the purposes of teh
original thread, R'n TK appropriately excerpted from TZ.

Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Should Our Ancestors Have Needed a Mishkan?
* How German Built the Hebrew Language
* Is the New Israel Fund Indirectly Responsible for the Goldstone
Blood Libel? (en & de)
* Is Mu?ammar Al-Qadhafi Jewish
* After the Tefillin Terror Scare

Dear Areivim and Avodah members,

We would like to invite you to join a new endeavor -- we are calling for
people to join a new women's mussar vaad through AishDas. Feel free to
forward this email to women you think may be interested.

For over a year, AishDas has been running e-Va'adim with tremendous
success. The AishDas model for an "e-Vaad" is a bi-monthly telephone
conference call intended to help a group of people learn and support
each other in growing through mussar. The format which we found most
successful is based on Sefer Alei Shur from R' Shlomo Wolbe. The outline
of each Vaad generally follows this format: Members first report on
their progress working on the "homework" from the previous Vaad, then
a new Vaad in Alei Shur is presented by the (rotating) leader for that
evening, and then a new task is presented for the following weeks. We
are considering other sefarim that may be more appropriate for a women's
e-vaad, but the format will remain the same -- reporting on progress
and encouraging one another, learning about a midda, and homework for
the next week Between Vaadim, members interact via a chavrusa system
and a Vaad-wide email list for mutual feedback and support.

We are glad to report that after over a year of running the vaad, the
vaad members have agreed that it is a successful endeavor; all have
noticed improvement in their middos, and recently expanded to another
men's vaad.

Now that we have experience with this kind of program and the loose
details have been worked out we would like to invite you, in the name
of AishDas, to join a new Vaad for women, patterned after the successful
format of the original vaadim, which still continue.

Please email Shayna Korb (shayna.k...@gmail.com) if you're interested
in joining or finding out more.

We will probably be starting within the next few weeks.

Kol Tuv,
The AishDas team

Dear Areivim and Avodah members,

We would like to invite you to join a new endeavor -- we are calling for
people to join a new women's mussar vaad through AishDas. Feel free to
forward this email to women you think may be interested.

For over a year, AishDas has been running e-Va'adim with tremendous
success. The AishDas model for an "e-Vaad" is a bi-monthly telephone
conference call intended to help a group of people learn and support
each other in growing through mussar. The format which we found most
successful is based on Sefer Alei Shur from R' Shlomo Wolbe. The outline
of each Vaad generally follows this format: Members first report on
their progress working on the "homework" from the previous Vaad, then
a new Vaad in Alei Shur is presented by the (rotating) leader for that
evening, and then a new task is presented for the following weeks. We
are considering other sefarim that may be more appropriate for a women's
e-vaad, but the format will remain the same -- reporting on progress
and encouraging one another, learning about a midda, and homework for
the next week Between Vaadim, members interact via a chavrusa system
and a Vaad-wide email list for mutual feedback and support.

We are glad to report that after over a year of running the vaad, the
vaad members have agreed that it is a successful endeavor; all have
noticed improvement in their middos, and recently expanded to another
men's vaad.

Now that we have experience with this kind of program and the loose
details have been worked out we would like to invite you, in the name
of AishDas, to join a new Vaad for women, patterned after the successful
format of the original vaadim, which still continue.

Please email Shayna Korb (shayna.k...@gmail.com) if you're interested
in joining or finding out more.

We will probably be starting within the next few weeks.

Kol Tuv,
The AishDas team

In a message dated 2/16/2010 1:17:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu writes:

As  someone noted in a comment recently, Rav Kanievsky similarly believes 
that  Jews differ physically from gentiles in the number of teeth, on the 
basis of a  midrash Talpiyot combined with another rabbi's testimony. Midrash 
Talpiyot was  authored by Rabbi Eliyahu ben Shlomo Avraham, and was published 
in 1698  
Yitzchok Levine 
 
>>>>>
 
Has anyone been able to confirm that R' Kanievsky believes this?  
 
--Toby Katz
==========



--------------------
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20100223/bb98bbc2/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 27, Issue 55
**************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."