Avodah Mailing List

Volume 27: Number 28

Wed, 27 Jan 2010

• 1. Re: Two kinds of humros (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 2. coca cola ingredients (martin brody)
• 3. Re: re Coca cola ingredients (Arie Folger)
• 4. Re: bal tashchis (Chanoch (Ken) Bloom)
• 5. Re: Psak about Muscovy Duck from the Rabbinical Institutefor Kosher Supervision and Research (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 6. Re: Coat Room Mix-up (Danny Schoemann)
• 7. FW: : [Areivim] source of quote - ancestors coming to a simcha (SBA)
• 8. Ruach HaKodesh (Yosef Skolnick)
• 9. tu beshvat in SA (Eli Turkel)
• 10. Looking for sources about Chazal's Ruach Hakodesh (Gershon Seif)
• 11. Which Kapitlach focus upon Gratitude? (rabbirichwol...@gmail.com)
• 12. Re: Looking for sources about Chazal's Ruach Hakodesh (Gershon Dubin)
• 13. Re: Which Kapitlach focus upon Gratitude? (Zev Sero)
• 14. Re: tu beshvat in SA (Ari Z. Zivotofsky)
• 15. Re: Looking for sources about Chazal's Ruach Hakodesh (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: Looking for sources about Chazal's Ruach Hakodesh (rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com)
• 17. Re: Looking for sources about Chazal's Ruach Hakodesh (Yitzchok Zirkind)
• 18. Re: Looking for sources about Chazal's Ruach Hakodesh (Daniel Eidensohn)

Rn Toby 
> The question was about chumros or derabbanan's and how they act as
> a fence to safeguard de'oraisahs. The particular question to which
> I responded was about shniyos and how they safeguard de'oraisa arayos
> prohibitions. Citing a DE'ORAISAH as being a fence doesn't make sense. The
> de'oraisa is the thing we want to safeguard, it is not a safeguard
> to protect or prevent something else. Also, the Torah does not give a
> reason for forbidding MZ -- although it does call it a to'eivah. Thus,
> it is quite a stretch to posit that maybe the Torah forbids MZ in order
> to ensure the safety of young males when they go to the mikva.
 
Hu hadavar asher amarti 
 
If the Torah's goal is a society whose children are protected by taboos
from feeling preyed upon"
 
Then the sh'niyyos neatly dovetail into the existing Torah structure!
 
As to why certain caess -- EG uncle-niece -- was not forbidden is takeh a
good question, but doesn't mean the overall thesis is flawed. [Sometimes
exceptions overide policy]
 
This mamash "davar mitoch davar". See a tzad hashaveh, and -- when
warranted -- apply it or extend it.
 
And FWIW the Torah itself has dozens of s'yaggim. See the Hinuch on
Hametz or Aovadah Zara to see many harchaqos within the Taryag.
 
EG as per Rambam issur bishul bassar bechalav is to avoid a pagan
ritual. Or
Think about an [unworshipped] asheira 
Or matzeiva in parshas Shoftim. 
 
KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

"Why would a company intentionally put in a natural flavor that didn't make
a
difference in the taste of the product? Or, as RRW put it, we're talking
about "any ingredient -- consciously placed there for its taste". Seems
like a waste of money to add a taste that is impossible to notice.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha"

I didn't sat it wouldn't make a difference. I said that you couldn't
identify the "objectionable" ingredient because it is mixed with other
tastes/flavours.


Martin Brody
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RMB asked:
> Why would a company intentionally put in a natural flavor that didn't
> make a difference in the taste of the product? Or, as RRW put it,
> we're talking about "any ingredient -- consciously placed there for
> its taste". Seems like a waste of money to add a taste that is
> impossible to notice.

The company does not introduce all ingredients one by one, but rather
uses a preparate that contains various ingredients. Flavorings are
some of the most complex food additives and can have dozens or even
over a hundred ingredients. Sometimes this is the case because they
are trying to reproduce a natural flavor with other ingredients. For
example, apparently (this may be a myth, but so I am told by some
expert) the world's strawberry production is insufficient to provide
for all the strawberry and strawberry flavor in jams, yoghurts, etc.
So actual, real strawberry is augmented by other natural and/or
artificial products. To get the flavor right takes a lot of skill and
complex ingredients.

But none of the individual ingredients are felt, when tasting the
mixture, kal va'homer when tasting the final product that merely
contains the mixture.
-- 
Arie Folger,
Recent blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* Videovortrag: Tehillim als Gebet
* CNN: Only Israel Has A Fully Functioning Field Hospital In Haiti
* Das innige Gebet einer Frau
* Internet Halakha: Should we Expect Privacy?
* Newsflash: King David had Literate Servants

On Mon, 2010-01-25 at 00:28 -0500, T6...@aol.com wrote:
> off-list exchange:
>         >>This is a common minhag -- to always leave a little
>         something on the plate, 
>         >> never eat the last crumb.  Is it a chassidishe minhag?  I
>         don't  know.   I 
>         >>grew up with it.   It's based on a pasuk somewhere  that I
>         can't quite 
>         >>retrieve from my memory box -- something about thanking
>         Hashem because you have 
>         >> enough food to be satisfied and even have food left  over.
>         [--TK]

>         >> Might that be ve?achalta, vesavata you are thinking of?
>         Or maybe ?savanu vehosarnu kidvar Hashem?? <<
>          
>         
> >>>>>
> I don't think either of those two is quite what I was trying to
> remember but there's a clue in that zemer, ?savanu vehosarnu kidvar
> Hashem.?    
>  
> "Kidvar Hashem."  What dvar Hashem is the song alluding to?

II Kings 4:43-4:44: But he (Elisha) said "Give it to the people and let
them eat, for so said Hashem: Eat and leave over!". He placed it before
them, and they ate and left over, as Hashem had said.

The latter verse is part of Birkat Hamazon in the Sephardic nusach,
included in the set of pesukim that follows Migdal/Migdol at the end.

--Ken

RZS 
> Without a Sanhedrin, how could the halacha have changed? Either it
> was always treif, or it's now kosher.
 
"Halachah" [or better the term "P'saq"] evolves all the time.
 
Think of the machloqes SA haRav and Siddur Harav re: tefillin on ChhM. If
one's ancestors were Ashkenazim they all wore t'fillin during ChhM until
Hasssidism and GRA changed it
 
Here's another for S'phardim re: N'filas apayim 
Hida opposes the Rema's requirement of Sefer Torah and claims n'filat
apayim does not require a Sefer Torah. But nowadays most edot mizrach
don't do n'filat apayim at all.
 
There are probably dozens of similar changes over the years. 
 
KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

> Did I do the right thing taking the coat in the first place?

No - as per KSA 182:12 and SA Chosen Mishpat 136.

Unless it was Pikuach Nefesh to be outside w/o a coat.

> What Mitzva did he do to be saved from Shatnez?

He didn't do any Mitzvot. He stole a coat, albeit inadvertently, one
could assume, but Odom Mu'ad L'Olam - a person is always responsible
for his actions.

Now every time he wears the coat he's stealing (due  to wear and tear
- and you haven't given up hope so there's no Yi'ush), and he's no
longer doing the sin of Sha'atnez - though he's not aware of
this/couldn't care less.

> What Aveira did I do to to be Nichshal in Shatnez?

Since you had more than a suspicion that there was Sha'atnez in this
model coat, I guess it would be the Torah prohibition of wearing
Shaatnez.

- Danny

From: Aryeh Herzig 
Zohar first section of Parshas Pinchas page 219/2 paragraph beginning
"Uminalan"
.........

See Minhag Yisroel Torah (vol 4  - Inyonei Shidduchim) page 165. 

It also quotes  Shu't Chelkas Yaakov, that the reason  some have a Minhag of
saying Keil Moleh Rachamim under the Chuppah is because the neshamos are
there.

Also mentions Yesod veShoresh HoAvodah that the neshamos of parents come
down on Shabbos and YT as well as to seudas bris and bar mitzvah!

SBA 

A friend of mine asked:
Can anyone find a source that suggests that Chazal had ruach hakodesh?

KT HR,
Yosef Skolnick
516-690-SKOL
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One year on tu b?shevat someone (a second career retiree) brought Rav
Soloveitchik some bokser before shiur.
After chuckling, Rav Soloveitchik told a story about how Rabbi DZ
Hoffman would ask on his oral semikha exams ?
 where is Tu bshevat in the shulkan arukh?



(ANS-tahanun).

-- 
Eli Turkel

I'm searching for primary sources that tell us that Chazal had Ruach Hakodesh.

I believe the Steipler lists many nissim and techias hameisim episodes etc.
throughout shas, but that is not what I'm looking for. A skeptic, such as
one I'm currently discussing things with, can explain them away.

As for the Zohar that states: "And the Rabbanan of the Mishna and the Amoraim and all their Talmud they based on the secrets of the Torah."
(Zohar 3:152b) - Well a skeptic might reject the Zohar as a valid source.

Are there statements of chazal themselves about this, or perhaps Geonim or Rishonim?

I read about the Ritva RH 16B about Asmachta. I'm hoping for a long list of such sources.

Thanks!

I just sent this to the EVaad2 
> Then I asked myself -- which kapitlach of t'hllim focus on hodaya? 
> Immediately 100 and 92 came to mind 
 
> Later hallel hagadol [136] and the last kapitel of Hallel [118] also
> came to mind

> Any other kapitlach that focus on this topic is most appreciated.
 
Maybe we can make a definitive list of Kapitlach meeting this criteria? 
 
KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

You could add the Raavad saying "kefar hofiya Ruach Hakodesh beveis midrashenu"

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com

---------- Original Message ----------
From: Gershon Seif <gershons...@yahoo.com>
To: avo...@lists.aishdas.org
Cc: Yosef Gavriel Bechofer <ygbechho...@gmail.com>
Subject: [Avodah] Looking for sources about Chazal's Ruach Hakodesh
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:28:07 -0800 (PST)

I'm searching for primary sources that tell us that Chazal had Ruach Hakodesh.

I believe the Steipler lists many nissim and techias hameisim episodes etc.
throughout shas, but that is not what I'm looking for. A skeptic, such as
one I'm currently discussing things with, can explain them away.

As for the Zohar that states: "And the Rabbanan of the Mishna and the Amoraim and all their Talmud they based on the secrets of the Torah."
(Zohar 3:152b) - Well a skeptic might reject the Zohar as a valid source.

Are there statements of chazal themselves about this, or perhaps Geonim or Rishonim?

I read about the Ritva RH 16B about Asmachta. I'm hoping for a long list of such sources.

Thanks!
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rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> I just sent this to the EVaad2 
>> Then I asked myself -- which kapitlach of t'hllim focus on hodaya? 
107, of course.   And the 4 chapters of Hallel.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

i suspect the question must have been "where in OC or where in Mishna 
Berurah?"
The Rav surely knew that tu bishvat is in YD vol 3 in hilchos Orlah.


Eli Turkel wrote:

>One year on tu b?shevat someone (a second career retiree) brought Rav
>Soloveitchik some bokser before shiur.
>After chuckling, Rav Soloveitchik told a story about how Rabbi DZ
>Hoffman would ask on his oral semikha exams ?
> where is Tu bshevat in the shulkan arukh?
>
>
>
>(ANS-tahanun).
>
>  
>

How about "sod Hashem liyre'av", which the gemara cites several times
as an explanation for how the chachamim knew certain things.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Gershon: 
> As for the Zohar that states: "And the Rabbanan of the Mishna and the
> Amoraim and all their Talmud they based on the secrets of the Torah."
> (Zohar 3:152b) -- Well a skeptic might reject the Zohar as a valid source.
 
Funny I look at this mamash 180 degrees opposite. 
 
A. Regardless of one's disposition towards the publication of the Zohar --
what source would know "sisrei torah" better? IOW the Zohar would be a
great barometer for judging this -- regardless of its origins.
 
And 
B. Assuming the Zohar was indeed expert at judging Hazal's knowledge of
"sisrei torah" how does that prove any ru'ach haqodesh one way or the
other? Maybe Hazal were "merely" epxerts in the esoteric wisdom [SOD]
of the Torah based upon training?
[Except perhaps for the obvious cases of Honi ham'ageil and other
baalei mofeis?]
And therefore the "sisrei torah" foundation was based upon advanced
training and not about "ruach haqodesh"
 
Illustration: did the Talmiddim of the Arizal need ruach haqodesh
themselves or just a profound understanding of their TEACHER'S ruach
haqodesh?
 
Tangentially, IIRC an early Ashk'nazi Rishon commented that the Hilchos
Alfasi were written b'ruach haqodesh....
 
KT 
RRW 
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

See the Hakdama of Rav Reuvein Margoliyas to his edition of the Sefer "Shu"t
Min HaShomayim" .

On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 12:28 PM, Gershon Seif <gershons...@yahoo.com>wrote:

> I'm searching for primary sources that tell us that Chazal had Ruach
> Hakodesh.



-- 
Kol Tuv,
Yitzchok Zirkind
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*Leshem*^ *(2:4:19): *The critical point is that every Jew is obligated 
to belief with perfect faith that all which is found in the words of our 
Sages ? both in halacha, Talmudic agada and medrashim ? are in their 
entirety the words of the living G-d. That is because everything that 
they say is with ruach hakodesh (Sanhedrin 48b). This includes even that 
whch isn?t relevant to halacha and deed?Also all their decrees and 
statutes are not the product of human intellect at all but rather are 
the result of ruach hakodesh in which G-d has expressed Himself through 
them. This is the great sound that doesn?t end (Devarim 5:19) of the 
giving of the Torah at Sinai and it expresses itself in the Oral Torah?. 
Thus the Sages are just like messengers in what they say?. This is why 
the Bal Halachos Gedolos includes the Rabbinic mitzvos with the Torah 
mitzvos since all of them were given by G-d (Chagiga 3b)?We can conclude 
from all this that anyone who tries to analzye the words of the Sages in 
order to establish the nature of their truth places himself in great 
danger. That is because man?s intellect can not properly comprehend this 
matter and thus a person can come to heresy from the endeavor. This is 
what Koheles(7:16) states: Don?t make yourself too wise  - why destroy 
yourself?  A person who gets involved in this matter will find it very 
difficult to resist following his human understanding. He will end up 
going back and forth between the view of the Torah and that of his own 
understanding?. The righteous person lives by his faith because that is 
the foundation of the entire Torah?.

Bava Basra (12a): R. Abdimi from Haifa said: Since the day when the 
Temple was destroyed, prophecy has been taken from the prophets and 
given to the wise. Is then a wise man not also a prophet?12 ? What he 
meant was this: Although it has been taken from the prophets, it has not 
been taken from the wise. Amemar said: A wise man is even superior to a 
prophet, as it says, And a prophet has a heart of wisdom.13 Who is 
compared with whom? Is not the smaller compared with the greater?14 
Abaye said: The proof [that prophecy has not been taken from the wise] 
is that a great man makes a statement, and the same is then reported in 
the name of another great man.15 Said Raba: What is there strange in 
this? Perhaps both were born under one star.16 No, said Raba; the proof 
is this, that a great man makes a statement and then the same is 
reported in the name of R. Akiba b. Joseph.1 Said R. Ashi: What is there 
strange in this? perhaps in this matter he was born under the same star. 
No, said R. Ashi; the proof is that a great man makes a statement and 
then it is found that the same rule was a halachah communicated to Moses 
at Mount Sinai. But perhaps the wise man was no better than a blind man 
groping his way through a window?2 ? And does he not give reasons [for 
his opinions]?3

See *Ramban and Chasam Sofer *on this gemora

*Chazon Ish's Letters (1:15):*It is at the roots of our faith that all 
that is said in the gemora whether it is in the Mishna or gemora whether 
it is halacha or agada?all these things were revealed to us through the 
medium of prophetic power

*Chazaon Ish's Letter (2:24): *The truth is that the generation after 
the Mishna witnessed a decline in stature relative to the Tannaim. The 
new generation knew for certain that the truth was always with the 
Tannaim. Once they knew the truth of the matter that it was impossible 
for them to comprehend something that had not been understood by one of 
the Tannaim?it was no longer possible to disagree directly with the 
Tannaim on their own authority. Therefore, they only taught what they 
understood to be the teachings of the Tannaim. Similarly with the close 
of the Talmud, the words of an amora?who was unaware of the teaching on 
that matter of a tanna?were not null. The only exception being Rav who 
because of his greatness his words were not null. All their conclusions 
were reached with Divine guidance and ruach hakodesh which manifested 
itself.

*Sanhedrin (11a):**With *the death of the last prophets?Chagai, 
Zechariah and Malachi?ruach hakodesh left the Jews. Nevertheless, they 
still were able to utilize Bas Kol

*Chasam Sofer (1:208):*

*Meshech Chochma (Vayikra 26:44):*



 

 


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