Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 256

Thu, 17 Dec 2009

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Joseph Kaplan <jkap...@tenzerlunin.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:34:37 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] anarchy/libertarianism


"Does the Torah require  us to be 
classical liberals a/k/a conservatives?  Yes, but only in the  sense that the 
Torah presupposes a Jewish people who are wise and  intelligent.  However, 
it is not, strictly speaking, assur to be  stupid."

I assume that R' Toby had a smiley face in mind when she wrote this sentence which she neglected to put in.

Joseph Kaplan


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Message: 2
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 10:09:26 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Billions and Millions


kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> One particular phrase that I'm having trouble with, refers to how we
> cannot adequately describe even one of the many favors He has done for
> us. In the Nusach Ashkenaz version, "many" is described as "alef elef
> alfay alafim v'reebay r'vavos".
>   
How about hearkening back to your childhood: "hundreds of favors, 
thousands of favors, millions and billions and trillions of favors" (the 
original, for those who were differently educated, reads "cats" instead 
of "favors").

David Riceman



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Message: 3
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 09:52:45 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Glycerine in mouth wash


At 09:12 AM 12/16/2009, martin brody wrote:
>Do you make a bracha? A bracha achrona too? Of course not.You do not 
>drink it as food and it is not why it was made and besides I'm 
>pretty certain a dog wouldn't drink it. But what I was trying to say 
>was the author of the comment from Kaf K is in the business of 
>selling supervision and did not mention that as medicine, glycerine 
>may not be a problem. That is intellectual dishonesty.
>And to add to the mix, even if glycerine is from an animal source, 
>it's composition has changed enough to be considered inedible, even 
>more so than gelatin. There's enough suffeiks around even when in an 
>edible product.

All I can say is that Rav Y. Belsky does not agree with you and says 
that one should not use mouthwash without supervision.  As I am sure 
you know, he is one of the OU's poskim when it comes to kashrus.

Perhaps you should contact him and discuss this with him.

For the record, both Scope and Listerine were on Rabbi G. Bess' 
kosher for Pesach list.

YL
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Message: 4
From: Arie Folger <arie.fol...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 17:54:23 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How to light the Menorah


RAR wrote:

> Rn Katz's reply, below, might express the halacha but I was not asking
> what the strict halacha is. If the Ashkenazi minhag is to use the
> shammas to light the menorah then perhaps there is some importance in
> sticking with that minhag.

Ah, but anything you use to light the candles IS the shamash. And
anything that provides light in the room, so as to avoid having hanaah
from the candles, is also THE shamash.

There is a real question, whether one may use one of the 'hanukah
lights to light another one, which is where Ashkenazim and Sefardim
differ. However, beyond that, I fail to see any issue of minhag.

I should add to R'n TK's comment below:
> Therefore what  you use to light the flames is irrelevant.  You use what is
> convenient, that's all -- a match, a candle, a cigarette lighter, whatever
> you want.

... and for making sure that the room is lit, one very great shamash,
more mehuddar than all others, is (are) the light bulb(s) in the room.


Kol tuv,
-- 
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* The Warmongering Laboring Amazons
* But is it Still Pork?
* Glaubensweitergabe  Ein Videovortrag
* How Trustworthy is the Fish Monger or Fish Restaurant?



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Message: 5
From: Allan Engel <allan.en...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:35:43 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Glycerine in mouth wash


I just looked at the small print on a bottle of Listerine and it says "Do
Not Swallow".


 At 09:12 AM 12/16/2009, martin brody wrote:
>
> Do you make a bracha? A bracha achrona too? Of course not.You do not drink
> it as food and it is not why it was made and besides I'm pretty certain a
> dog wouldn't drink it.
>
>
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Message: 6
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 11:52:09 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Glycerine in mouth wash


At 11:35 AM 12/16/2009, Allan Engel wrote:
>I just looked at the small print on a bottle of Listerine and it 
>says "Do Not Swallow".
>
>
>At 09:12 AM 12/16/2009, martin brody wrote:
>>Do you make a bracha? A bracha achrona too? Of course not.You do 
>>not drink it as food and it is not why it was made and besides I'm 
>>pretty certain a dog wouldn't drink it.

Actually I am using one of the "generic" brands of Listerine, either 
the Shoprite Brand or Duane Reade brands. I have a bottle of "Duane 
Reade Antiseptic Mouthrinse and Gargle Vanilla Mint" in front of me 
now. It says on it, "Keep out of reach of children. If more than is 
used for rinsing is accidently swallowed, get medical help or contact 
a Poison Control Center right away."

It is not clear to me if this warning is for children or also for 
adults.  However, I think that it does imply that swallowing the 
amount used for rinsing is not harmful.

It also says that it is 21.6% (that's 43.2 proof) alcohol. >:-}

Perhaps I would be better off using a good bourbon as a mouth 
rinse.  Most bourbons are at least 80 proof and many are even more.

YL
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Message: 7
From: Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:49:52 -0800
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] anarchy/libertarianism


On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:30 PM, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:

[I]t is not, strictly speaking, assur to be stupid.
>
>
>
Do you have a source for this? I am asking semi-seriously, because I
remember seeing some years ago someone on here quoting a teshuva that
explicitly said it *is* assur to be stupid. IIRC the context was astrology
or "channeling" or something similar, but I can't find it in my gmail
archive
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Message: 8
From: Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 08:59:09 -0800
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] anarchy/libertarianism


On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 8:49 AM, Simon Montagu <simon.mont...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 15, 2009 at 10:30 PM, <T6...@aol.com> wrote:
>
> [I]t is not, strictly speaking, assur to be stupid.
>>
>>
>>
> Do you have a source for this? I am asking semi-seriously, because I
> remember seeing some years ago someone on here quoting a teshuva that
> explicitly said it *is* assur to be stupid. IIRC the context was astrology
> or "channeling" or something similar, but I can't find it in my gmail
> archive
>
>
Found it: the penultimate paragraph of
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol15/v15n030.shtml#11 quoting from Nefesh
HaRav.
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Message: 9
From: Saul Mashbaum <saul.mashb...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 21:37:08 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Why isn't chanukah mentioned in the mishna ?


RRW traces the "historical development" of Chanukah,and concludes

"I call this the Hanukkah I ,Hanukkah II hypothesis"

RMB
>>

Less radical variant... They didn't anull and reinstitute Chanukah
as much as not know what to say about it. The practice just persisted
because of a lack of BD gadol mimanu bechokhmah uveminyan.

Until the discussion in the gemara of "Mai Chanukah?" and Chanukah
was shifted in focus.

>>
Dr. Yitzchak Brand of Michlelet Yaakov Hertzog has a similar idea of "shift
in focus" regarding other chagim. In his article " Rosh Hashana ve Hoshana
Rabba - michagei mikdash liymei din"  he notes that the earlier tannaitic
sources
and the later amoraitic sources present the mitzvot of these days -  tkiat
shofar and n'tilat arava - with different emphases.  He  maintains, as the
title indicates,  that the chagim "shifted in focus"  from
mikdash-oriented ones , as described by the tannaim, to yom-hadin-oriented
ones, as defined by the amoraim.   See "B'rosh Hashana Yikateivun - Studies
on Rosh Hashana", Tvnot, Alon Shvut, 2008.

It should be emphasized that the authority and validity of the rabbinic
sources is axiomatic to this author's approach, as is of course true of our
chaverim here.


Saul Mashbaum
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Message: 10
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:51:29 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] anarchy/libertarianism


kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
> One of the seven laws of Noach is to set up a system of courts to 
> enforce justice. Our 613 laws include laws about which crimes get what 
> punishments, and how the courts should work. How could one even begin 
> to think that this is consistent with anarchy?

Anarchism has a wide variety of forms, most of which try to deal with
this issue. It may be at least loosely related to the machlokes about
"oseh adam din l'atzmo", though no one thinks that applies to corporal
punishment.

T6...@aol.com wrote:
>  However, it is not, strictly speaking, assur to be stupid.

See PHM Hagigah 2:1 s.v. "kol shelo has al k'vod kono". According to
the Rambam it depends on why you're stupid.

David Riceman



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Message: 11
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:15:06 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How to light the Menorah


Why not just when using an oil lamp for shammos - simply light all oil
lamps using a plain old paraffin Hanukkah Candle?!

Gutn Hanukkah
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 12
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:21:44 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Glycerine in mouth wash


RYL:
> Mouthwash is indeed edible (drinkable).

FWIW The term is "potable"

> I often swallow it after swishing it around in my mouth when I am
> pressed for time or do not want to bother spitting it into the sink
> and then rinsing the sink.Try it and you will see that one can indeed
> drink it without harmful side affects. Furthermore, it contains alcohol,
> so this may add to your experience! >:-}

Ok so for those who enjoy ingesting moutwash -shavya a nafsham haticha
d'issura

For most of us it is NOT palatable nor potable and hence AIUI glycerin
is not an issue.

It is AISI beateil mei'achlilas odom - I'm not sure about achilas kelev

A gutn Hanukkah
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 13
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:11:55 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Just How hot is Yad Soledes Bo anyway?


Chana Luntz wrote:
> I personally am not totally convinced by the argument in the Yalkut Yosef.
> It seems to me that the default position should be that we ought to be able
> to learn yad soledet bo out, unless we are specifically made aware that this
> is not a situation we can learn it from.  Kli sheni is such a situation, it
> is always made very clear that it is an independent test of cooking (or non
> cooking) that works in parallel to the definitions vis a vis a kli rishon.
>   
I'm not sure what you mean by "always".  The Aruch HaShulhan in YD 
105:19ff seems to view kli sheini eino m'vashel as a consequence of 
temperature and speed of diffusion (which he discusses particularly in 
SK 20).  He doesn't mention heat capacity, though IIRC he uses a crude 
formulation of it in his discussion of tata'ah gavar (later in the same 
siman).

When I was learning YD many years ago my rebbe was opposed to assigning 
particular temperatures to halachic categories, since he thought 
halachic ambiguity indicated delegation of discretion.  In this case his 
argument was, no disrespect intended, anachronistic, since there was no 
known way to measure temperature at the time the SA was written.  I 
wonder, however, to what extent Hazal or the standard poskim would have 
approved of the use of precise measures had they been available.

David Riceman



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Message: 14
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 20:16:27 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] anarchy/libertarianism


simon.mont...@gmail.com
> Do you have a source for this? I am asking semi-seriously, because I
> remember seeing some years ago someone on here quoting a teshuva that
> explicitly said it *is* assur to be stupid.

I don't know about this Halachically speaking

One of my hosts in Wash Heights use to say on parsha Noach that Noach
was blamed for not being intelligent enough to save his generation,
IOW in the face of catastrophe he was culpable for his "stupidity"

I've forgotten whom he was paraphrasing.

Akiva Miller
> How could one even begin to think that this is consistent with anarchy?
> I must be misunderstanding something.

I think they're saying in moshiach times a utopian society would not
need a government

Maybe dispute such as they are - would be arbitrated instead

Gutn Hanukkah
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 15
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 15:56:14 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] anarchy/libertarianism


On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 08:16:27PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
: I think they're saying in moshiach times a utopian society would not
: need a government

How can one speak about a MELEKH hamashiach and a lack of gov't at the
same time? Chadeish yameinu kikedem -- melekh, beis din hagadol, navi
and kehunah. Lots of government.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 16
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 16:11:02 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] anarchy/libertarianism


Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 16, 2009 at 08:16:27PM +0000, rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:
> : I think they're saying in moshiach times a utopian society would not
> : need a government
> 
> How can one speak about a MELEKH hamashiach and a lack of gov't at the
> same time? Chadeish yameinu kikedem -- melekh, beis din hagadol, navi
> and kehunah. Lots of government.

Yes, I think it's clear that anarchism is incompatible with the Rambam's
view of mitzvas minuy melech as a requirement and a lechatchila.  Those
who regard minuy melech as a bediavad may be seen as anarchists, and
perhaps they hold like the opinion of R Hillel that "ein lahem mashiach
leyisrael", but rather that Hashem will redeem and rule us Himself.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other peoples money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher



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Message: 17
From: Saul.Z.New...@kp.org
Date: Wed, 16 Dec 2009 14:18:32 -0800
Subject:
[Avodah] tzedaka priority


is it acceptable to base  tzedaka decisions  based on hashkafa  --- ie  i 
don't like your stand on a particular issue , therefore i will not  [or no 
longer]  support your mossad?

does the same hold true for individuals  [ ie i only have x dollars for 
hachnasat  kalla; i will choose to not give it to those who i disagree 
with]

i assume there is no problem with this calculation in the positive 
direction [ helping those i agree with]. but is the negative  valid as 
well?


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