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Volume 26: Number 245

Sun, 06 Dec 2009

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Arie Folger <arie.fol...@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 15:25:36 +0100
Re: [Avodah] Canned vegetables

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 3:01 PM, martin brody <martinlbr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> That's the point. The LBD will permit canned veggies/ fish/ tomatoes/etc
> from Switzerland despite your? and others protestations.

Don't you get it, there are no Swiss canned vegetables on the UK
market, that would be a waste of money. You may find Italian tomato
products, because that is a big Italian export product. You may find
Swiss chocolate in the UK (and LBD requires that these be from the
list, because some of them do contain problematic ingredients), you
may find Thai fruit cans, but no Swiss vegetable cans (or only a
negligible amount).

I sometimes cross borders several times a week, and I can tell you
that markets are handled along national/regional policies, and so the
products on sale just across teh border in Germany or in France are
different from each other and different from those in Switzerland.
With some exceptions, of course, as some chains then open stores
across the border, too. But Swiss cans are not going all the way to

Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report
* On the Stereotypical Jew
* Wieso ?ruhte? G?tt?
* Wir sind f?r die Evolution!

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Message: 2
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 14:25:09 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Factory Bishul Akum Rav Moshe

From: martin brody martinlbr...@gmail.com
 <<Actually, I got it from the OU website. I'm not asking you to
 accept it, (or anything else I have offered regarding Kashrut and I thank
 those that have confirmed my statements,) but to recognize that he said
 it. I'm suprised it is not more well known.>> Especially considering
 that the OU article that you cite says that the OU itself doesn't rely on
 it (without other snifim)

<<Where does he say this?[The other RMB pointed us to IM 1:55 twice now. Once on Areivim,
and repeated here. -micha]>>
The article says IM 2:148, but I didn't see it there.  He also cites verbal conversations with Rabbi Belsky and Rabbi Greenblatt. 
Water Heater
Some like it hot. Click now for a reliable new water heater!

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Message: 3
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Fri, 04 Dec 2009 10:30:10 -0500
[Avodah] Project Proposal - Rewrite Chovos Hal'vavos

At 09:47 AM 12/4/2009, Saul Mashbaum wrote:

> >>>
>In studying Hovos Hal'vavos I noticed that the "fine wine" is stored in
>a medeival cask" so to speak.
>IOW, the concepts are valuable today, but the idioms and parables
>seem dated.
>I would love to see a gifted author re-work this classic into a more
>contemporary idiom. Any suggestions?
> >>
>At least the language has been reworked.
>There is an edition of Hovot Hal'vavot , "Lev Tov", by R. Pinchas Yehuda
>Lieberman, in which on each page, the original translation is accompanied by
>a rewrite in *much* clearer and comprehensible Hebrew, which remains
>faithful to the original.
>This work was published in 1968-71, apparently by the author; I don't see
>any information about a publisher, just  a note "all rights reserved to the
>I don't know about the availability of this work, but it's definitely worth
>looking for; it makes learning Hovot Hal'vavot immeasurably easier.  I
>recommend this work highly.
>Saul Mashbaum

Wasn't this originally written in Arabic? If so, then I have wondered 
from time to time how accurate the translation into Hebrew is.  Has 
anyone recently translated this work from the original Arabic? Would 
not it make sense to have a rewrite based on the original work as 
opposed to the Hebrew translation?

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Message: 4
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 16:09:57 +0000
[Avodah] V'sain Tal uMatar, Precision in Halachah

In an offlist dialogue we discussed how precise analogies must be
in halachah

For a highly imprecise analogy, consider that we use the Babylonian
"yardstick" for v'sein tal umatar all throughout the golah even though
we are only "Bavel" by not being EY! Our agricultural climate is very

[Same for keeping the highly obsolete nusach of Yekum Purkan which refers
anachronistically to Bavel.]

We are "Bavel" in a sense, but in an imprecise sense. 

I made a hilluq hypothesis:
To preserve a status quo, an imprecise analogy might work.

OTOH to make a hiddush might indeed require a higher-level of precision
in the analogy.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile

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Message: 5
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 4 Dec 2009 18:11:31 +0000
Re: [Avodah] Dishwashers 1

> If Bedi'eved would 
> equal lechathcila then using dishwashers with meatand milk at the same
> time would be OK according to many. BUT AFAIK, it's not OK to do --
> except that b'diavad we may not have to trash the dishes."

martin brody:
> Why is it not OK to do L'Chatchila as long as one uses soap?SA YD?
> 95:4. R.YO ( and others) agrees

This will take me about 3 posts to address so here goes part 1

We have a presumption that Pogeim is ONLY a bedi'avad Not a lechatchilah.

I searched my new TuShA and I found little beyond the Shach 21 (Baeir
hetev 18)

I looked at my Badei Hashulchan and he lays this out very. Despite my
highlights I don't recall what I had already learned before

But this is a certainty:
Mechabeir 95:4
"Yeira'eh li" this is a bittuy for a hiddush w/o meqoros - EG see Rambam
MT in many places.

SA continues:
"Im nasnu afar bemayim chamin b'yoreh kodem shehinichu hakdeiros
... Muttar"

Quick point Badei 86 shows this as "a" bedi'avad case. IOW there is no
heter to place the eifer their lechatchilah

The tremendous hiddush of SA is that post facto eifer we may now wash
ab initio! This hiddush is imho radical and I will BEH review the Badei
in full [see a limmud z'chus below]

Lulei mistefina, I would say the mechabeir was applying his b'di'avad
too early on the time line and should have allowed this ONLY after the
dishes were already in that yore and not before.

It would be a really radical hiddush to eliminate any b'dia'avad
altogether and place the eifer there lechtchilah! This is mamash the
case of dishwasher [w/o yet addressing the mechanics]

It is also obvious from RMF/IM that mixing dishes together simultaneously
is a no-no

Limmud z'chus Hypothesis for mechabeir:

1 he is combining pogeim with another b'di'avad viz. Nat bar Nat. So
maybe that is why he feels free to move up the lechatchila earlier...

2 I'm guessing that since this is dishwater and not edibles,
SA's threshold is more liberal. [This is not so simple because
the mechabeir mentions shoman davuq bahem and bishul is a potential
d'oraisso here even if it is lo miskavein and even if one is throwing
out the water.] Nevertheless, my gut tells me that the SA is meiqil here
because it is only about dishes and not about food we are about to eat.

BEH I will review the badei inside and follow up. Part 2

I have not seen ROY's Teshuva inside. Does he address the SA's use of
"she'im nasnu"?

Also note Rabbi Forst is machmir on this. See Badei 85. The concern is
that real milk and meat may cook together prior to the threshold of the
dishwasher soap being pogeim.

[Unless one already pre-rinses the dishes with soap prior to placing
them in the dishwasher.]

I once had a case come to me where:
2 young Israeli babysitters mixed milk + meat dishes in the same cycle
and my LOR was mattir bedi'avad bli piqpuq.

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Message: 6
From: Richard Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 06:50:46 -0500
[Avodah] Vayeishev "Fun kin'ah vert sin'ah. Envy Breeds

And his brothers saw that their father loved him more than all his
brothers, so they hated him, and they could not speak with him peacefully. 
	 ?. ?????????? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ???????? ?????? ??????
????????????? ????? ????? ??????? ????????? ????????:
and they could not speak with him peacefully:	   From what is stated to
their discredit, we may learn something to their credit, that they did not
say one thing with their mouth and think differently in their heart. [From
Gen. Rabbah 84:9]
??? ???? ???? ?????: ???? ????? ????? ????, ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???:

I have always maintained that 95% of all parents have a favorite amongst
their children. Many cannot admit it to others (or even to themselves), but
it is almost human nature to favor one child over another. We know this as
teachers that we have our likes and dislikes. However, the wise teacher
does his or her best not to show it. I know personally that when I teach a
class, I go overboard to be even a bit harder on those whom I favor more.
And it doesn't necessarily have to do with one's intelligence but rather it
is a certain chemistry that often times may be irrational, objectively

The Rashi above regarding "...something to their credit, that they did not
say one thing with their mouth and think differently in their heart" is
quite interesting. We are taught right from the story of Sarah and Avraham
that a white law is not only permissible -- but preferable in sparing one's
feelings. So for Rashi to compliment the brothers for their brutal honesty
is surprising. 

There's a well known Yiddish proverb: "Vos oyf der lung iz oyf der tsung"
which literally means "What?s on the lung is on the tongue." This is one of
the problems of draconian personalities who brag how they "tell it like it
is." Basically, this is not a compliment. It basically means that someone
who is impulsive and has little or no control of oneself says whatever is
on his mind without thinking or caring of the repercussions of his words
and the negative effects it may have on others. In another context, what
Rashi is saying would be meritorious. In other words, people should not be
duplicitous and insincere. But IMHO, to use the scenario of the brothers
"hating" Joseph and speaking ill of him, to their credit, as an example of
not being hypocritical seems to be a stretch and an unsatisfactory object
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Message: 7
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmo...@012.net.il>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:29:34 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Project Proposal - Rewrite Chovos Hal'vavos

Prof. Levine wrote:
> Wasn't this originally written in Arabic? If so, then I have wondered 
> from time to time how accurate the translation into Hebrew is.  Has 
> anyone recently translated this work from the original Arabic? Would 
> not it make sense to have a rewrite based on the original work as 
> opposed to the Hebrew translation?
It was translated by Rav Kapach in 5761
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Message: 8
From: Saul Mashbaum <saul.mashb...@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 5 Dec 2009 22:43:06 +0200
Re: [Avodah] shidduch statistics


Seriously, though, every time I
hear of someone making a se'udas hoda'ah for this yesh'uah or that, I
thank HQBH for saving me from even needing a yeshu'ah. Every time my
child crosses the street and there were no hidden cars, I got a bigger
berakhah than that of the neighbor who thanks G-d their son healed.
In response I wrote, in part
Logic and emotions lead us in different directions in this matter. By logic,
position RMB describes here is of course valid. Emotionally, salvation from
actual danger engenders in us a feeling of gratitude which is impossible
to attain by contemplating a case in which "nothing bad happened".

This is the basis of the Talmudic principle that the mitzva of haggada on
leil haseder
requires "matchil b'gnut u'mesayyem b'shvach". The "gnut" shows that the
exodus was from
an intolerable situation, a genuine geula. Lacking this, our emotional
to the exodus experience would not be nearly as intense.

To continue this idea, I will point out that it seems to me that the Hallel
at the seder
is more intense and emotion-laden than the other Hallels we say on Pesach.
The Hallel
we say in the course of remembering and indeed reliving a personal and
national salvation
is especially emotionally moving.

B'inyana d'yoma: On Chanukah (and Purim, of course), immediately after
Modim, we say Al hanissim.
In the former, we thank Hashem for the daily miracles - "nisecha sheb'chol
yom" - which He performs for us, which are the
basis of our very existence. On Chanuka we then especially thank Hashem for
rescuing us from what would have been
a terrible national tragedy. Again, although intellectually the daily
miracles are ultimately more significant
than the one-time ancient miracle of Chanukah, it seems to me that the
gratitude expressed in Al Hanissim, in response to
salvation from danger, is more deeply felt.

Saul Mashbaum
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Message: 9
From: Daniel Israel <d...@cornell.edu>
Date: Sat, 05 Dec 2009 22:33:54 -0700
Re: [Avodah] Kosher

Arie Folger wrote:
> I just set before you a small sample of the issues. As always, it is
> important to SYLOR, though if he is not an expert in the field, you
> should instead or in addition approach your local hashgicho agency.

Not sure what the 'S' stands for.

I just wanted to add one important (IMO) modification to the above: if 
you have a Rav, he should be the one you are asking these shailos to. 
Of course, any Rav worthy of being relied on will know when he doesn't 
have the expertise on a particular shaila, and he will either check with 
appropriate experts or refer the questioner to them.  And at a certain 
point a person may realize that for question X, his LOR will prefer him 
to simply ask R' Ploni instead.  But a person should not be finding a 
kashrus expert as a substitute or to go around his LOR, and the LOR 
should be the one making the final decision on what is an appropriate 
standard for the community.  I assume/hope you didn't intend to suggest 

Daniel M. Israel

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Message: 10
From: Gilad Field <gila...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 13:14:28 +0200
[Avodah] Old style Hallel

I was learning Rambam hilchos chanukkah with one of my kids last night and
the following halacha caught my eye. The Rambam discusses the way hallel
used to be said in the olden times (before the time of the Rambam). and he
describes how the chazan would recite the words and everone would respond
"halleluka". At the end the Rambam gives a mnemonic device to remember
how many times the people would respond "halleluka" - 123 times based
on the years of Aharon HaKohen.

I was puzzled by this comment. First of all it is rare that the Rambam
would use a siman in this way (i.e. as a mnemonic device), I did a quick
search in the Bar Ilan and Rambam only uses a siman as a memory tool 7
times (and 4 of them are in hilchos kidduah haChodesh). I am not sure if
that is significant at all - but since the Yad is a halacha sefer I wonder
why he chose to include it if it does not serve any halachik purpose.

In addition if you look up the source of the Ramabam , which according to
the Magid Mishnah is Midrash Tehillim, there Rebbi Yehoshua ben Levi is
basically saying he never looks in Aggadic sources, but he did this one
time -- and he regrets it! (the Or Samayach points out that the Yershalmi
in the beginning of the 16th perek in shabbos, and others point out the
16th perek of maseches sofrim) which stregthens the question as to why
Rambam included this mnemonic.

Has anybody come across any interesting explanations of this Rambam? I
know there is a chasam sofer (Sukkah, 38a) that does try to explain -
but I really don't understand what he is saying:

???? ????? ?????'. ?' ???"? ?"? ???' ????? ??"? ????? ?????? ????' ????
??' ???? ?????? ?? ???? ???? ?"? ???' ?????? ?? ??? ?????' ???? ?????'
?????' ????' ???? ????? ????? ?' ????"? ????"? ??"? ?????? ???? ??? ???
?????' ??"? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??"? ???? ??"? ???? ??"?
?"? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ??? ??"? ?????? ??"? ???? ????:


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Message: 11
From: Arie Folger <afol...@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:18:59 +0100
Re: [Avodah] kosher lists

I wrote:
> So, no, not everything needs a hekhsher, but yes, one needs a certain
> amount of expertise to figure out what can be relied upon and what
> not. Consult your local kashrut experts.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2009 at 4:21 PM, Prof. Levine <llev...@stevens.edu> wrote:
> I suppose that people who live in these countries get used to this
> situation, but to me it sounds most complicated and fraught with danger.

True. But it is not so difficult to learn about the bog unproblematic
food groups. European kosher lists will sometimes tell you what is
unproblematic and what to look out for in the unproblematic kinds of
products. Everything else needs to be somehow supervised (incl. but
not limited to kosher lists and printed hekhsherim).

I'd like to make one more comment on some earlier thoughts I posted.
After I explained the shortcomings of CIP processes ("cleaning in
place"), and stressed how they don't usually reach the upper limits of
yad soledet bo, quite some posters have discussed what the temperature
of yad soledet bo is.

The truth is, that there is no consensus on any exact temperature, and
a range is always used. When the 'hashash is a deoraita, a larger
range is definitely used. On derabbanans, some/many kashrut agencies
will accept a smaller range.

Anyway, what I didn't write, but would be obvious to many, is that we
are not content with yad soledet bo for kashering. We want
lekhat'hilah rotea'h (100C or 212F) or at least that the CIP reaches
the usual highest operating temperature. I only mentioned yad soledet
bo to explain how low CIP temperatures usually are, and to weaken the
argument that we can rely on the CIP detergents as devarim hapogmim.
If the distasteful (even abrasive) cleaning product isn't even hot,
how would it render pagum the beli'ot that were absorbed hot?

So, regular, unmodified CIP is usually not good enough to assume that
lines were kashered.

When I dealt with factories that were investigating getting certified
or listed, I requested that the CIP temperature be raised.

There is no position in the above regarding stam keilim einam benei
yoman, which I happily let you discuss ad infinitum.

An Avodah moderator asked me why the above belongs on Avodah and not
Areivim, so I am specifying:
: Targum Folger: The follwing are the Torah topics addressed in my post:
: The whole discussion of yad soledes bo not being the most important
: factor in determining whether or not keilim are kosher. Lekhat'hilah
: we go for roteach. And that abrasive products won't remove beli'ot
: shel reti'hah unless they are heated, too, which is where yad soledet
: bo discussions become important.

Kol tuv & good vokh,
Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report
* On the Stereotypical Jew
* Wieso ?ruhte? G?tt?
* Wir sind f?r die Evolution!

Arie Folger,
Latest blog posts on http://ariefolger.wordpress.com/
* UK Commander Challenges Goldstone Report
* On the Stereotypical Jew
* Wieso ?ruhte? G?tt?
* Wir sind f?r die Evolution!

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Message: 12
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 6 Dec 2009 20:02:44 +0000
[Avodah] Dishwashers - Hag'ala

See SA O Ch. 552:2

Yeish lizaheir - don't do hag'ala with milk + meat dishes at the same
tame unless one is "eino ben yomo"

MB 14 uleda'as Rema afilu bedi'avad  assur.

Bepashtus any kli with mamashas of bassar or chalav [even if NOT ben yomo]
is worse than a clean ben yomo - it's academic here because hag'ala is
with only clean keilim anyway.

If BbCh was OK lechatchila by merely adding eifer to the water, then
the mechabier could have said it. If anyone wishes to pursue this with
other nos'ei keilim be my guest.

Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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