Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 224

Tue, 10 Nov 2009

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Harvey Benton <harvw...@yahoo.com>, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Thu, 5 Nov 2009 19:14:51 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] yishmael v. the mitzri???


[I got back to moderation to find a long exchange on the queue. I
compressed the full contents into this single post, so as to keep the
clutter to a minimum. The participants (so far) as R's Harvey Benton and
Zev Sero. -mi]

RHB:
in this week's parsha, Rashi tells us that Hashem judged Yishmael as he
was (then), not looking into his future or the future of his descendants.

However we know that by the episode of Moshe we do know that Moshe
looked forward to see if the Mitzri would have any worthy descendants,
(he saw none, and then killed the Mitzri)......
Why the difference between the two cases??

RSZ:
It's obvious.  The mitzri then was not innocent, he was guilty!

RHB:
your answer doesn't address the question of looking forward (vs. the
yishmael case). if the mitzri was guilty, then just plain kill him
(assuming he was worthy of death), and not look forward....

RSZ:
And lose those future tzadikim?!  How could he do that?

RHB:
1. are you saying that the ideal paradigm of killing/not killing
someone who is guilty is to look to the future to see if any tzadikim
would emerge?

2. (imo) that is not any way to run a legitimate judicial system

3. assuming other people could thus see into the future, like moshe
rabeinu; say like the arizal, or members of the sanhedrin (past or
future), or other gedolim/neviim, do you suggest that if they were on
a beis din/sanhedrin judging a case, they should vote for denial of a
death penalty based on such visions???
is there any basis in the halacha or gemmara for such actions???

RSZ:
Moshe was not a beis din!  He was a private person, with the opportunity
to kill this mitzri, and was deciding whether to do so.  If there had
been tzadikim destined to come from from him, how could Moshe prevent
them from being born?! 

RHB:
1. if hashem want's someone to be born, then he/she will be born (harbe
shluchei l'makom)....I don't think it is the job of a tzadik like moshe
(or a beis din judging the matter or anyone else) to delve into what
might/might not occur when it will interfere with the case or matter
at hand.

2. Why didn't Moshe learn from the example of Yishmael? and judge the
person as he was then, and NOT look into the future???



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Message: 2
From: Harry Weiss <hjwe...@panix.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 10:32:23 -0500 (EST)
Subject:
[Avodah] R. Meir Bar Ilan


> From: bass...@queensu.ca
>
> Sefer Amar Yehushua is not a theory--- a factoid. the book exists and
> you can find the exact? reference of tosfos in it. and indeed every
> pisqa begins: amar yehoshua, and this is the way the rishonim called
> it. . the first huge study of it was done by Avraham Epstein well over
> a hundred years ago. he discusses eldad's sources, who he was and
> where he was. since then there have been other fine studies,
> The most recent treatment of eldad i think is that of meir bar-ilan,
> of bar-ilan university. I would not be surprised if steinzaltz put in
> the right words.
>
> Zvi Basser

Just a technical correction.  R. Meir (Berlin) Bar Ilan, after whom Bar 
Ilan University is named was niftar before the univesity was established. 
He was the younger son of the Netziv of Volozhin.  Since he is from second 
marriage, he wass much much younger than his older brother R. Chaim 
Berlin.

I wonder if his cousin addressed the issue of whether R. Chaim Berlin 
attended the Netziv's wedding.   This would have been before the time of 
R,. Baruch Epstein, but that is the sort of informaton could possibly be 
in Mekor Baruch.



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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 18:55:12 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] minhag


Many minhaggim are simply "spiritual enhancers"
EG:
   Tashlich
   Selichos
   Shir Hashirim erev Shabbos
   Qabbalas Shabbos
   Tiqqun layl Shavuos
   Tevilah for men (see more)  >>

RYBS disagrees about selichot and feels it goes back to the geonim and probably
even to chazal (i.e. R.Yochanan)

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 4
From: Ben Waxman <ben1...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 19:50:35 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What is a minhag?


I think that you are right but when you phrase it like this, then the 
difference between minhag and practice (the former being binding and the 
latter not) starts to break down.

Ben
----- Original Message ----- >
> Qaddesh es atzemcha bemuttar lach I guess can be refraining from the
> permitted
> OR
> Sanctifying the optional.
>
> KT
> RRW
> Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile




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Message: 5
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 20:27:07 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] minhag of selichot


Let me quote from RYBS (Noraot HaRav vol 6 p237)
Note especially end of quote



Selichos is an ancient institution. How old, I do not know. It is
difficult to guess.
The institution of selichos is not mentioned in the gemara explicitly
although it
is mentioned implicitly (discussed later in the shiur). However, I am
certain that it
is an institution which dates back to ancient times although I do not
know har far
in antiquity this institution can be traced. The Geonim discussed Selichos.
But they did not refer to it as something new they had introduced. Rhather
they referred to it as something which had been in existence prior to
their time. Rav Amram Gaon
and Rav Saadia Gaon both refererred to Selichos as something which was
already well
established at their time.
        On the other hand it is impossible to maintain that reciting Selichos
is mideoraisa. Selichos is an institution or a minhag. AS the Rambam says
"ve-nahagu kol yisrael" it is customary to recite silechos. But a
minhag must be based
uopn something. Sometimes a minhag or halacha per see is only miderabban.
Hiwever, the basis, the background of that particular halacha or of
that particular
minhag is mideoraisa, biblical in origin and is sometimes quite fundamental.
Selchos is of that category




-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 6
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 8 No 2009 17:22:43 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] minhag


RRW:
> Many minhaggim are simply "spiritual enhancers"?

RET:
> RYBS disagrees about selichot and feels it goes back to the geonim
> and probably een to chazal (i.e. R.Yochanan)

How is THAT a disagreement?  Does the factoid that it's Gaonic preclude it as a "spirtitual enhancer"?

Anyway here are more factoids

Selichos period - dierse Minhaggim
1 Rambam 10 Days of Teshua
2 Ashkenaz add another 4-8 days
3 Edot mizrach add Elul
4 Habbad Ashkenaz monly thru  tzom gedalyah

Tangent Minhag

1 Ere YK short or long (EG Breuer)

Conclusion: no single "taqqanah" for yamim nora'im

Howeer,
If RYDS amar selichos hu min HaGaonim - hachi ka'amar:

Selichos for TAANIS TZIBBUR IS Gaonic
In that it is in our text of Seder Ra Amram to be said in birkas slach
lanu - which Breuer's still does today for the 4 Taaniyyos
BUT not B"H"B nor 9 A [note our SRAG has been enhanced and embellished
and includes much of Minag Ashkenaz]

SRAG has selichos for 9 A which the minhag is NOT to say - [does anyone
differ and still say selichoa on 9 Av?]

Does Rambam HAE a nusach for s'lichos


Tangents
IIRC 2 Shaarei Teshua says that Tiqqun Hatzos trumps s'lichos - but I
have not yet locate it [SA 681]

Also to not say 13 middos at night al pi sod is mashma a later origin
in that I'm unaware that gaonim had such a Hakpadah.

KT
RRW
Sent ia BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 7
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 18:52:37 +0200
Subject:
[Avodah] akeidah


<<Now we are told what happened after Avraham and Yitzchak had
met the highest challenge and accomplished the most exalted mission
a person can complete: They returned to their attendants, and all of
them ? Avraham, Yitzchak, and with them the young men ? went
Yachdov, together, to Be?er Sheva.>>

RYL makes several statements that remind me of several questions about
the Akeidah.

The Torah begins the parsha that G-d tested Abraham. In the parsha
Yitzchak seems to
be a passive victim. No explicit mention whether he agreed even an
implication that he
didnt realize what was happening until the last moment.

Some midrashim change the entire story. They explain the akediah began with
a debate between Ishmael and Yitzchak about who was greater. Yishmael argued
that he had a brit milah at age 13 when he could have resisted whil Yitzhak was
only an 8 day baby. Yitzchak replied that even if G-d asked for his
sould he would
be willing to give it up and so that led to the Akediah. i.e. the main
person was
Yitzchak and Abraham was a minor player.

Rashi brings that the 2 "boys" (naarim) were Eliezer and Yishmael.
Interesting that
after being evicted Yishmael is now a servant of Abraham. Chumash itself only
notes that Yishmael came to Abraham's funeral not anything in between.
Accepting the other midrash that Yitzchak was 37 then Yishmael was 37+15=51
not exactly a "naar". Elizer was also obviously not a "naar"

One of the big questions is whether Abraham lived in Hebron or Beer
Sheva at the time
and where was Sarah at that time, seems like she was in Hebron and
Abraham in Beer Sheva.
-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 8
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 11:59:59 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Akeidah


At 11:52 AM 11/8/2009, Eli Turkel wrote:
>RYL makes several statements that remind me of several questions about
>the Akeidah.

I did not make any statements about the Akeidah. I quoted from RSRH's 
commentary on the Chumash, and this is all that I did.

YL
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Message: 9
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 19:53:23 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What is a minhag?


> the difference between minhag and practice (the former being binding
> and the latter not) starts to break down.
> Ben

Who says every minhag is binding?

I found the missing shaarei teshuva.. s'lichos before RH is nidcheh by
tiqqun Hatzos 681:4

Here are many optional minhaggim
    Ushpizin 
    Tashlich 
    Visiting cemetaries On certain occasions
    Miqveh (execpt perhaps erev RH as per Rema)
    Kapparos
    Fasting Behab and YK Qatan
    Everyone lighting Hanuukah M'norah (instead of just baal habayyis)
    More than 1 shabbos candle
    Yahrtzeit licht and Fasting on Yahrtzeit
    Everyone getting aliya on Simchas Torah
    Avinu malkeinu on taanis tzibbur
    Probably hataras nedarim Before RH - except when a known neder
        needs to be nullified


Minhag Cat#1 which is as I defined about P'saq is binding.

Minhag Cat#2 IE
A Minhag re: a g'zeira may be binding (EG qitniyyos, matza ashira)

But many minhaggim are by no means "binding" and are merely preferential
or even merely optional.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 10
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 8 Nov 2009 23:40:41 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Seclusion is not the Jewish Way


RY Levine Quoting Hirsch:
> Hisbodidus, secluding oneself from others, is not the Jewish
> way. OurTzadikim and Chassidim lived among the masses, with the masses,
> and for themasses; they considered it their mission to lift the masses
> up to them.Abandonment of the masses -- mesushelach -- is symptomatic
> of a generation'ssickness; it is found in an age in which the concept
> of God isreduced to a subject for theoretical speculation, and where
> the thoughtof God makes men into fanatics, drives them to eschew and
> escape lifebecause they fear its temptations or -- in blind arrogance --
> disdainits problems. The Torah opposes ascetic seclusion,

Note, below are links to two related Posts on this selfsame subject.

The First from Hirsch on Avos, the 2nd from me based upon Hirschian
Ideals. Also Note, I delivered the Sukkah Sensitivity as a talk in the
Breuer Catered Sukkah several years ago.

NishmaBlog: Hirsch on Avoth 2:5; Community Uber Alles
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2009/11/hirsch-on-avoth-25-c
ommunity-uber-alles.html

NishmaBlog: Sukkah Sensitivity - 2
http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/2009/10/sukkah-sensitivity-2.html

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 11
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Mon, 9 Nov 2009 00:13:40 EST
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Seclusion is not the Jewish Way


 

From: _mirskym@sympatico.ca_ (mailto:mirs...@sympatico.ca) 


>>Yitzchok  Levine provides source material from RSRH supporting this.  But 
how does  this square with Austritt?  Was the issue that associating with 
the Reform  was more dangerous than Avraham amongst the nations of his  
time?<<



Michael 

 
>>>>>  
Avraham kept himself away from the evils of the big city and refused to  
associate with reshaim -- it was Lot, not Avraham, who settled in Sedom, while 
 Avraham lived a rural life, in a tent.  At the same time, his tent was 
open  on all four sides and he was exceptionally warm and hospitable to all -- 
on  his terms, in his own home.  ("Wash that avodah zarah off your feet 
before  you come in -- now, how can I serve you, what can I do for you?  Please  
enjoy my chulent and kugel, my beautiful Shabbos table and a soft bed and 
how  else can I help you?  And oh yes, don't forget to thank G-d -- me?   
pshaw, it was nothing...it was all His doing, the least I can do is share His  
bounty...")
 
This is the model for austritt and kiruv, love for your fellow Jew,  
cordiality towards all humanity, and Torah independence.

--Toby Katz
==========



-------------------- 




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Message: 12
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Thu, 05 Nov 2009 12:47:42 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Jewish Tefila is Antithetical to the Common


The following is a selection from RSRH's commentary on Bereishis 20

7 Now, therefore, restore the wife of the man, 
because he is a prophet, so that he will pray for 
you and you will remain alive. But if you
will not restore her, know that you will surely 
die, you and all that are yours.

V'yispalal ba'adcha ? from the root palal (to 
judge), related to balal As we have
already seen in the account of the dor haflaga (above, 11:7), the bolel does
not mix materials together; rather, he introduces a foreign element into
a substance and integrates some of the new into every particle of the
old, thus creating a new substance. According to the Jewish conception,
this is the task of the judge. Lies and injustice cause division, create
conflict and dispute. A judge introduces justice, the Divine truth of
things, into the disputed matter, creating harmonious unity where lies
and injustice had caused conflict and division.

Hispalal means: to perform this task (palal) upon oneself, to infuse every
aspect of one?s being and existence with God?s truth, and thus attain for
oneself harmonious integrity of all of life by the light of God?s Countenance.

Jewish tefila, then, is antithetical to the common conception of
?prayer.? Tefila is not an outpouring from within, an expression of what
the heart already feels ? for that we have other 
terms: t'china, si'ach, and the
like. Rather, tefila means infusing the heart with truths that come from
outside oneself.

Tefila is avodah sheb'lev; mispallel  means to 
work on refining one?s inner self,
to elevate one?s mind and heart to the lofty heights of recognition of
truth and desire for serving God.

If this were not the case, if tefila were but an outpouring of our
emotions, it would make no sense to have fixed times and fixed texts
for our prayers. How could we assume that all the members of the
community would be imbued with the same thoughts and the same
emotions at certain predetermined times?

Moreover, prayer that is merely an expression of feeling is superfluous.
Thoughts and emotions that are already alive within us do not
require expression, least of all expression in set phrases formulated by
others than ourselves. Deep inner experience always finds its own way
of self-expression; and where the inner experience is exceedingly grand
and profound, it is beyond all expression, and the most appropriate
expression is silence.

It follows, then, that the whole purpose of our fixed prayers is to
awaken the heart and to revive within it those timeless values that still
require reinforcement and special care. One can truly say that the less
we feel in the mood for prayer, the greater is our need to pray, and
the greater is the redeeming power and sublime value of the work
upon ourselves that we perform through tefila. The absence of the
mood for prayer is in itself the surest sign of the obscurement and
dimming of that spirit that is not the basis for tefila but its goal and
exalted purpose. 
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Message: 13
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Sun, 08 Nov 2009 06:47:36 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Beauty and Innocence


RSRH writes the following in his commentary on Bereishis
231 Sarah?s life was a hundred years, and twenty 
years, and seven years: years of Sarah?s life.

Thus, Sarah took the beauty of childhood into young adulthood,
and she retained the innocence of a woman of twenty all the days of
her life. This view of our Sages contrasts greatly with the view that is
commonly held in our time ? and not necessarily to our advantage!
The Sages look for beauty not in the woman of twenty but in the girl
of seven, and for innocence not in childhood but in young adulthood.

We are accustomed to speaking of ?the innocence of a child.? But
it would be sad if one would have to envy children their innocence. For
innocence presupposes the possibility of guilt. Innocence means to have
struggled with sensuality and passion, and to have overcome them. Only
a girl who has matured into womanhood, and only a boy who has
matured into manhood ? only they can reach the level of true innocence.

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Message: 14
From: Daniel Israel <d...@cornell.edu>
Date: Mon, 09 Nov 2009 22:25:07 -0700
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] yishmael v. the mitzri???


> RHB:
> in this week's parsha, Rashi tells us that Hashem judged Yishmael as he
> was (then), not looking into his future or the future of his descendants.
> 
> However we know that by the episode of Moshe we do know that Moshe
> looked forward to see if the Mitzri would have any worthy descendants,
> (he saw none, and then killed the Mitzri)......
> Why the difference between the two cases??
> 
> RSZ:
> It's obvious.  The mitzri then was not innocent, he was guilty!
> 
> RHB:
> your answer doesn't address the question of looking forward (vs. the
> yishmael case). if the mitzri was guilty, then just plain kill him
> (assuming he was worthy of death), and not look forward....

Looks to me like an issue of din vs. rachamim.  Strict din would judge 
just the case in front of you.  In the case of Yishmael, this yielded a 
good verdict, so there was no need to appeal to rachamim.  In the case 
of the mitzri, the case at hand made him liable for death, so it was 
appropriate to appeal to rachamim to try to find a chaf zechus; none 
being found, he was killed.

(Yes, I am aware I am glossing over the fact that one judgment was frm 
HaShem and the other by a a person.)

-- 
Daniel M. Israel
d...@cornell.edu


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