Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 102

Mon, 01 Jun 2009

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Sat, 30 May 2009 23:33:56 EDT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How were Levi'I'm Counted?


From: "Akiva Blum" _ydamyb@gmail.com_ (mailto:yda...@gmail.com) 


>the bas qol was
> only needed for those too young for the  manual method.
> 

Why would anyone be too young? Do you have write  your own name and 
personally
put the peteq in the box? Could you not do it by  proxy?

Akiva
 
 
>>>>>
 
According to Rashi it seems that it would be a breach of tznius for  Moshe 
to enter each tent to count the babies (and young children?)
 
 
--Toby  Katz
==========



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Message: 2
From: Gil Student <gil.stud...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:31:31 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Stam yeinam of Giyur Candidates


Just use yayin mevushal to avoid embarrassing anyone and having to use
leniencies that are minority opinions.


Gil Student



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Message: 3
From: "Jay F Shachter" <j...@m5.chicago.il.us>
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:57:21 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Optional Acts With Rabbinic Prerequisites


kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 22:41:37 GMT:

> 
> Both netilas yadayim and eruv tavshilin are procedures which Chazal
> required us to do as a *preparation* for another act, such that
> without the preparation we are forbidden to do the other thing.  As
> long as you're planning to do the other thing, then, yes indeed, the
> preparation is a mitzvah.  But if you're not planning to do the other
> thing, then the preparation is *not* a mitzvah.
> 
> Hmmm... Are there any other *optional* acts which are *forbidden*
> unless a certain mitzvah-procedure is done beforehand?
> 
> Akiva Miller
> 

Is yibbum optional?  If so, then you have another one.  Scripturally,
the consummation of a yibbum relationship requires no prior procedure;
Rabbinically, it does, and, if I am not mistaken (please forgive me if
I am wrong -- I have no experience with this, and I do not know how
the community rabbis actually rule in practice, in those cases where
yibbum is performed), a brakha is recited.


                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 N Whipple St
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"



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Message: 4
From: "M Cohen" <mco...@touchlogic.com>
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 20:30:19 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Learning on Shavuos - Two Scenarios


RYL wrote  .Someone told me that Reb Moshe and other gedolim (whom he did
not name) did not stay up all night learning. I am pretty sure that Rav A.
Miller also did not stay up all night learning. He went to sleep at his
regular bedtime, around 11 PM.

 

I don't know what this comment is supposed to show. 

Their personal actions are not the issue - I highly doubt that RMF
discouraged his yeshiva (or RAM when he was machgiach in yeshiva)

 from the common custom to stay up all night learning.

 

btw, this comment is irrespective of the fact that I agree that there is no
chiyuv to stay up all night, and that an individual may certainly decide to
sleep instead.

My disagreement with you is that you imply that the current minhag is wrong,
or should be changed.

 

mordechai cohen

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Message: 5
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 00:22:38 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] How were Levi'I'm Counted?


R Toby:
> According to Rashi it seems that it would be a breach of tznius for Moshe
> to enter each tent to count the babies (and young children?)

Right and this is mashma a head count if NOT for the bas kol! But what's
the hava amina to count heads anyway!?

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 6
From: "Jay F Shachter" <j...@m5.chicago.il.us>
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 19:39:31 -0500
Subject:
[Avodah] Txum Shabbat


rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote on Thu, 28 May 2009 20:17:16 +0000:

> 
> Subject: Re: [Avodah] rishonim, yevamos 24a, ain mikreh.....
> To: harveyben...@yahoo.com, "Micha Berger" <mi...@aishdas.org>
> 
> 
>>
>> 5. not outside on shabbas (a la karaites).
>>
> 
> Don't leave your place
> Place is defined as a 2000 cubit radius.
> 

The others were correct; this is the one that is not.  The notion that
Txum Shabbat is Scriptural rather than Rabbinic is a minority opinion,
and even this minority opinion does not hold that the Scriptural txum
is 2000 cubits, but, rather, that it is much larger, and was
subsequently reduced to 2000 cubits by Rabbinic enactment.


                        Jay F. ("Yaakov") Shachter
                        6424 N Whipple St
                        Chicago IL  60645-4111
                                (1-773)7613784
                                j...@m5.chicago.il.us
                                http://m5.chicago.il.us

                        "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum videtur"



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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 31 May 2009 21:32:46 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Stam yeinam of Giyur Candidates


Michael Makovi wrote:

> (While on the subject of people doing giyur: many Israelis seem to
> think it is perfectly alright to treat these people as shabbos goyim,
> asking giyur candidates to turn on their lights. I hope I don't need
> to explain why I find this utterly disgusting, revolting, wretched,
> [...] I do not understand how anyone who fears G-d can behave in
> such a manner.)


Why?  These are people who have to do one act of chilul shabbos anyway.
Why should they object to turning that act into a positive mitzvah of
helping a Jew?



-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher



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Message: 8
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 01:38:43 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] goy vs. chiloni


<I thought of a similar case were according to most poskim a chutz learetz Jew
can ask an Israeli Jew to fo melachah on the second day of yomtov but he
cant ask a goy.

Nevertheless it seems strange that a goy doing benefit on shabbat is more chamur
in some cases than a chiloni doing work.>
       I put this question to R. Michel Feinstein z"l in 1954.	My s'vara
       was that the prohibition of a goy to do m'lacha for a Jew is an
       issur on the Jew for whom it is done; the goy, after all, has no
       issurei Yom Tov.  For another Jew, however, the issur is not a
       consequence of the requester's issur m'lacha, but because he himself
       has an issur m;lacha. Hence, on the second day, the Israeli has no
       issur of his own, and we don't invent a new g'zeira of amira
       l'Yisrael.
     He said that his father-in-law, the Brisker Rov, made that very distinction, and permitted asking an israeli to do m'lacha for a ben chutz la'aretz.
EMT


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Message: 9
From: "Shlomo Pick" <pic...@mail.biu.ac.il>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:02:02 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] tinok shenishba


since there has been an extended discussion about the nature of tinok shenishba and chilonim nowadays,
i would think that the informed individual would want to know about the following sefer published last year:
Menachem Mendel Adler, Bina veDa'at: hilchot machalelei shabbat
bezemaneinu, birur gidrer tinok shenishba, halakha vehanhaga leba'alei
teshuva (yerushalyim 5768) and it's only 706 pages.
and the rest, go and learn.
kayitz baree lekulchem
shlomo pick
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Message: 10
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 12:31:28 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] eruv tavshilin


A question was raised regarding one who makes an eruv tavshilin even though
he plans to do absolutely nothing which requires the eruv: Is he doing a
mitzvah by making the eruv, or would it be a bracha l'vatalah?

I had suggested that the mitzvah is in the *hachanah*; preparation is a
mitzvah if and only if one is sincerely planning on doing the later act.
There's no bracha l'vatala if one washes netilas yadayim and then changes
his mind, but it *is* l'vatala if one washes while planning on *not* eating
bread.

Then I asked for other examples of this sort of preparation, and a few were suggested to me offlist, which I'll now pass on to the group.

(a) Shechita - If one shechts an animal, and says the bracha on it, even though the plan is for this animal to go uneaten, was that a bracha l'vatala?

(b) Trumos and Maasros - If one maasers some produce, and says the brocha
on the maasering, and plans to neither eat the food, nor use it for any
other purpose which would have been assur if it was still tevel, was it a
bracha l'vatala?

I have no idea what the answers are, but I can't help but suspect that the
same answer will hold for all four of these cases. If sources are found
which indicate differing answers, I'd be very intrigued to see the
differences.

Akiva Miller

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Message: 11
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 14:28:34 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei


On Sun, May 31, 2009 at 01:34:16PM +0300, Michael Makovi wrote:
: I accept this distinction, but I'd point out that many/most(?) Jews
: today, even if they aren't observant, still believe in G-d. So
: according to the above, many/most(?) could still be counted in a
: minyan.

Actually, my position wasn't a conclusion, but an aproach. I was
suggesting that TsN would make no difference if the pesul is in the
metzi'us, not the guilt. I didn't actually take that idea and apply it
to pesaqim to explain any of them.

But you raise a philosophical issue. When do two people describe the same
thing differently, and when are the differences so fundamental that they
are just using the same word to mean two different things? This is a hard
question in general, doubly so when dealing with HQBH. Because one can't
discuss Essence vs Attribute when it comes to G-d, is there any difference
at all that can't be considered the description of a different G-d?

Add to that halakhah's recognition that we can't read minds -- devarim
shebaleiv einam devarim.

Instead, we have rulings for what range of ideas about G-d are within
the fold. Those that compell the person in question to keep Shabbos. Or
the 13 ikkarim as commonly accepted. Or...

A C Jew whose beliefs only differ from Deism because he believes in
some loosely-defined concept Divine Inspiration -- is his god the same
as my G-d with just different appendant beliefs about Him? That's what
I called a difficult question. Is his beliefs outside the range of norm,
yes. To say they are outside to the point where his prayers mean something
different than the range allowed by halakhah, quite possibly.

It's a possible approach to splitting "counting for a minyan" or stam
yeinam from assuming the poseiq was assigning blame for their heresy.
Whether or not it holds up requires more research than I've done.

: Kal vachomer with stam yeinam; either these nonobservant Jews believe
: in Hashem (ati shapir), or they're atheists or agnostics. If the
: latter, we really don't have to be afraid that they'll sanctify their
: wine to another god!

As above, I disagree -- they could be monotheists who worship a Deist's
god, or Spinoza's god, or some other non-Torah notion of Deity. Second,
you assume that stam yeinam is necessarily adjunct to AZ, rather than
also excluding wine that might have been used for worship of Hashem but
bederekh Emori. I don't know if that's true.

Along the lines of your other thread, a test would be stam yeinam of
geirei toshav. Allowed, or not? Probably not, but I would guess only
because of the other reason for stam yeinam -- intermarriage.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It's never too late
mi...@aishdas.org        to become the person
http://www.aishdas.org   you might have been.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                     - George Elliot



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Message: 12
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 02:37:56 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Learning on Shavuos - Two Scenarios


> My disagreement with you is that you imply that the current minhag is
> wrong, or should be changed.?
> mordechai cohen

What about Qoheles 3 "lakkol zman"?

Maybe it's a mitza for some to stay up all night and mamash assur
for others!

Look at the literature on optional fasts. A talmid chacham or a melamed
who takes on extra fasting at the expensive of his learning or teaching
is a chotei! OTOH there is a time for fasting, too.

EG Why not encourage young Yeshiva Boys to enjoy this rite of passage?
I myself haven't stayed up all night since around 1981, but I made it
a point to encourage my son to stay up.

Also maybe having a vassikin minyan is a good thing also for some -who
maybe cannot stay up late but - who can get up early and daven vassikin
with really good kavvana.

FWIW on erev shabbos YT sheini Beth Aaron Teaneck had a 7 PM mincha
and an 8 pm mincha as well.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 13
From: Ilana Sober Elzufon <ilanaso...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 16:17:12 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Stam yeinam of Giyur Candidates


RMM: At my yeshiva, there is a situation of many people in the process of
doing giyur. Now then, we have an issue of yayin nesech; students
bring wine to the communal Shabbat meal, and then we have a whole
thing about making sure that no non-Jews touch the wine

Why not just have a clear policy to use only yayin mevushal? It limits your
options somewhat, but surely it is worth avoiding bein adam l'haveiro
pitfalls.

- Ilana
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Message: 14
From: Ken Bloom <kbl...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2009 09:33:43 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Stam yeinam of Giyur Candidates


On Sun, 2009-05-31 at 13:33 +0300, Michael Makovi wrote:
> Later, I was speaking to a rabbi of mine, and he told me that Rabbi
> Nathan Lopes Cardozo had showed him, a few years ago, a teshuva of
> Dayan Grossnass of England, Shu"t Leib Arye volume One or Two (he
> didn't remember which, and I haven't had a chance to investigate),
> that ruled that once a person commits to doing giyur, his yayin is no
> longer a halachic issue; he is a yehudi as far as his yayin is
> concerned.
> 
> A question that's occurred to me, and which I have sent to Rabbi Angel
> (so his reply is pending): what of people who have not committed to
> doing Orthodox giyur, but only because they already (wrongly) believe
> themselves to be Jews. That is, people with a Jewish father, people
> with non-Orthodox giyur, etc. These people honestly believe they are
> Jewish, and were they to be convinced that they truly are NOT Jewish,
> they'd of course commit to doing Orthodox giyur.

Well, according to many poskim, a non-shabbat observant Jew does indeed
traif up the wine, so you'd only be able to consider a very small window
of opportunity where this "Jew" has decided he needs to learn about
Mitzvot and become a ba'al teshuva, but hasn't yet discussed with
anybody (or had explained to him) the fact that his father is Jewish,
but his mother is not.

> (While on the subject of people doing giyur: many Israelis seem to
> think it is perfectly alright to treat these people as shabbos goyim,
> asking giyur candidates to turn on their lights. I hope I don't need
> to explain why I find this utterly disgusting, revolting, wretched,
> and putrid. These people exploiting the giyur candidates have no
> derech eretz, have no humanity. I have spoken to giyur candidates
> about this; almost invariably, they find this extremely embarrassing.
> I cannot understand why these people will come to my yeshiva and ask,
> "Do you have any non-Jews here?"; it's absolutely horrible, and as far
> as I'm concerned, these people are rejecting the mitzvot bein adam
> l'havero bichlal; these people, as far as I'm concerned, may as well
> come up to the faces of these giyur candidates, spit, kick, throw mud,
> and taunt and laugh and mock and deride; it's all the same in the end.
> I do not understand how anyone who fears G-d can behave in such a
> manner.)

Are these people following the halachot of amira l'akum correctly to
begin with, or do they see it as a loophole large enough to drive a
truck through? Amira l'akum is an area of halacha that I'm scared to
touch or take advantage of because it's so easily abused.

--Ken



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Message: 15
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 19:42:03 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Tinok Shenishbah today - opinion of Gedolei


Micha:
> Along the lines of your other thread, a test would be stam yeinam of
> geirei toshav. Allowed, or not? Probably not, but I would guess only
> because of the other reason for stam yeinam -- intermarriage.

Aisi there are 2 separate dinnim
    1 The contamination due to A"z
    2 the contamination due to lack of shmiras shabbos

IIRC there is a story how a rav deflected some anti-semitism re: wine
contaminated by a Gentile. The Gentiles were offended (if anyone knows
details re: this ma'aseh plz feel free to furnish them!)

The rav cleverly told him it's a function of shemiras shabbos -- IOW
that even a Jew who is not observant would contaminate the wine as much
as any Gentile. Since wine is used to sanctify shabbos therefore it must
be handled only by shom'rei shabbos. The Gentile was mollified..

If this ma'aseh is instructive then shma mina tlas:

1 the reason one is not shomer shabbos is irrelavent; one either is or
is not.

2 if somehow in a hypothetical universe that a Gentile could be shomer
shabbos (I don't see how because of goy sheshavas, etc.) the wine would
be kosher.

3 A very frum ger toshav ben noach would still contaminate the wine
since he is not a Shomer Shabbos.

OTOH the rav might have been using a "dechiyya b'alma" and then we look
at other factors

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 16
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 22:04:14 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] sephira question


> This notion of the "virtual" count of day "zero" in arrears with the
> Chinuch's explanation leaves one wondering why it should be virtual? After
> all if the count is in arrears, and the work and anticipation of the
> mitzvos of the first day are now over, so why not count for real?...
> Chaim Manaster

Yesterday I heard a dvar torah about counting Leviim. It gave me an idea.

IE we physically count only 49 but it is counted as virtually 50 --
because HKBH deems it so [on a spiritual level]. IOW we receive extra
credit.

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 17
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 1 Jun 2009 18:27:01 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] sephira question


R Chaim Manaster:
> This notion of the "virtual" count of day "zero" in arrears with the
> Chinuch's explanation leaves one wondering why it should be virtual? After
> all if the count is in arrears, and the work and anticipation of the
> mitzvos of the first day are now over, so why not count for real?...

What's the term in LhQ for "zero"?

"Hayom maschil"?

Besides, for all the talk of counting time since day 0, the count is
tied to the qorban omer, thus the name "sefiras ha'omer" which isn't
brought on day 0.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 18
From: "Rabbi Richard Wolpoe"@namor.dreamhost.com
Date: Jun 1, 2009 17:58
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] (Neviim & Possible Mistakes); Akeidah & Yizchak


HB
> 2. Even if Avraham was a true Novi, do/did Novis ever make (potentially
> fatal or otherwise) mistakes?

And if a judge convicts someone to die is his word law? - Or do we say
that since "he is not infallible" we cannot execute?

This conflation of authority with infallibilty sounds like a
quasi-anarchistic call to dismiss all authority since humans are
admittedly fallible!

Imagine baseball games where the umpire is not heeded because he is not
infallible! Just Yesterday, Derek Jeter beat a throw to first but was
called out. Now Teixara's home run later that inning could have been
for 3 runs and the yankees might have won. And Replays were fairly
conclusive that the umpire blew the call. So is Jeter out or safe?

RE: Tzara'as: only a kohein may make that call. It is not objective
rather it flows from the authority of his office.

Does HB suggest that we take our automobiles to 3 inspections to make
sure human error is not a factor? :-)

KT
RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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