Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 95

Sun, 24 May 2009

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmo...@012.net.il>
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 02:10:25 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] forums for pesak


Micha Berger wrote:
> About RMF not liking the notion of teshuvos written in journals...
>
> I'm missing something: How many people read Hebrew halachic journals
> who wouldn't read IM? Are you sure he meant journals rather than
> popularist magazines? If so, please explain.
>   
There are two teshuvos where he mentions that the masses read journals 
and thus sensitive or subtle issues should be kept out of them

EH 1:64 page 163

??"? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ? ???? ??

??? ??? ???? ????? ????????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ????? 
??????? ???????? ????????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?? ????? 
???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? 
???? ??? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? 
?"?, ??? ????? ?????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? 
??????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????. ??"? ??? 
???? ??? ??????? ???????? ??????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????? ?? ?"? ?????? 
???? ???? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ???? 
??????? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ?"? ??? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??? ????? 
???????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ????.

EH 3:14 page 437
??"? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ? ???? ??

?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ????? ??? ??????? ?????? ???????? ?? ????? 
?????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ???????? ????????? ??? ??? ?????? 
??????? ?????. ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ??? 
????? ????? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ????? 
??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?? ?"?, ??"? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? 
?????? ??????? ????? ??? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?? ????. 
???? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?? ???? ????? ????? 
????? ???? ??? ???? ???. ????? ?????, ??? ?????????
>
>
>
>   

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Message: 2
From: Yitzhak Grossman <cele...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:03:57 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] forums for pesak


On Thu, 21 May 2009 16:36:00 -0400
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

...

> E.g. I see nothing wrong with Hekhsher Tzedek in principle, it exists
> IN ADDITION to kashrus. (In practice, it appears to be some politicallly
> liberal C rabbi's attempt to define a notion of labor relations that isn't
> necessarily grounded in anything Jewish.) Similarly, the Tav haYosher

I agree completely with this.

> offered by Uri L'Tzedek (a group of YCT students), or the Tev Chevrati
> in Israel. Both appear to be more like dina demalkhusa dina audits,
> but is that so terrible? (Is DDD less of a halachic issue than na"t bar
> na"t of owf bechalav?)

The question here is whether those implementing the hechsher are expert
on the sugya of Dina De'Malchusa Dina, and understand when it applies
and when it does not.  It's quite a complicated topic.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters



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Message: 3
From: Yitzhak Grossman <cele...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 20:13:00 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] forums for pesak


On Thu, 21 May 2009 20:49:09 +0000
rabbirichwol...@gmail.com wrote:

...

> But the idea of davening maariv (arvis) late on shavuous night that
> I could not even get the rabbi-Chaplain of a nursing home to budge.
> Even though the MB himself would have probably made an exception!
> 
> The protest AISI is NOT against the minhag of davening late per se,
> it's about making it MISINAI as the exclusive option! It's like davening
> early is like wearing Rabbeinu Tam tefillin INSTEAD of Rashi Tefillin.
> It's as if the early option, even though supported by AhS, MGA, and aiui
> RYDS has been written off the books somehow....

Magen Avraham (I assume that's who you mean by MGA) does require
waiting until zeis for kiddush (beginning of 494).

I think your overally formulation is quite fair, but my objection has
been to cavalier statements totally dismissive of the Minhag, such as:
"One need not wait to daven Maariv on the first night of Shavuous.
There are poskim to rely on if one wants to daven early."
This is just wrong; it is a custom endorsed by many Aharonim, with wide
support, certainly among Ashkenazim in the NY area, and although it
should not be made into more than what it is, a simple minhag, and
there's certainly basis to be lenient where necessary, we should not be
advocating its wholesale abandonment.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters



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Message: 4
From: Yitzhak Grossman <cele...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 21 May 2009 23:02:35 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Reuven's sin


On Tue, 19 May 2009 21:12:18 +0300
"Rabbi Y. H. Henkin" <hen...@012.net.il> wrote:

> For Reuven's sin "al pashto" see Rambam Sotah 3:2, and compare Bava
> Batra 15b	"anyone who says that the Queen of Sheba was a
> female..."(!) From there see interpretation in Bnei Banim vol. 4
> maamar 9, available at hebrewbooks.org.

It is pretty clear that Ralbag (in the thirteenth To'eles at the end of
Mikez) understands Reuven's sin literally.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters



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Message: 5
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmo...@012.net.il>
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 11:31:42 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Reuven's sin


R' Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
> It is pretty clear that Ralbag (in the thirteenth To'eles at the end of
> Mikez) understands Reuven's sin literally.
>   
It is clear that the Abarbanel (Shmuel 2 11:11) understood Dovid as 
literally sinning. It also seems that R' Shimon bar Yochai also had this 
understanding (Avoda Zara 4b). The Be'er Sheva (Sanhedrin 107a) 
explicity says the two gemoras are in conflict. Rashi in Yoma (22b) 
seems to state that Dovid committed adultery. Regarding Reuven - the 
Abaranel (Bereishis 35:22) says it is a dispute among Chazal whether it 
is understood literally.

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Message: 6
From: Shlomo Pick <pic...@mail.biu.ac.il>
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 12:57:16 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] Responses to Public forums he'arot.


In my posting I did not mention yo'atzot because that's what they are
advisors in a format basis. They are accepted and they don't get the
publicity an installation of a maharat gets nor the apparent agenda.

I am not sure whether the other comments in that specific posting were for
or towards me and in any case, I reiterate every posek takes into
consideration meta-halakhic issues such as za'ar, hefsed merubah, etc.  In
any individual case this is there. However, in a public shiur or in public
policy this may be downplayed to set the ground rules of what the pure
halakha demands.

Re: specific rabbi - chaplain issue.  Can't help you there in a specific
issue, but over here if such a problem arouse I had ask to have it referred
further to r. nissim karelitz or rav wohzner.  Unless these rabbis were
involved in the psak to begin with, you can get your opposite number to
consider such a review.

The two times mentioned are mandated by the posekim as I noted, just if you
are meikal (or do shurat hadin) for shekiyah, they all say that Kiddush
should be after leilah mamash (kaf hachayim and aruch hashulchan).

Re: > I'm missing something: How many people read Hebrew halachic journals
who wouldn't read IM? Are you sure he meant journals rather than popularist
magazines? If so, please explain.

Although an American may find the IM easier than a Hebrew (especially
Israeli) halakhic journal, I would agree that popular magazines may be
meant, or perhaps English language journals.  In this specific case, it
makes no difference, Avodah list and areivim list would be off limits
according to RMF.

I am a slight disadvantage in that I live in Israel and while the mail is
still buzzing until sunset EST, here I'm well into my shabbos nite sleep, so
that  I cannot answer immediately to any points. I do want to thank the
editors who have kavod habriyot in mind when reviewing a posting and in the
heat of an argument one may be (although he shouldn't be) lax in responding.

Yom yerushalayim sameiach ve Shabbat shalom

Shlomo Pick

 

 

 

 

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Message: 7
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 07:37:50 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] What is the Law?


Below are some selections from RSRH's essay Sivan V. I have posted a 
link to the entire essay at 
http://www.stevens.edu/golem/llevine/rsrh/collected_writings.html  YL

What is this Law?

It is the light of our manhood. It illuminates our eyes and, from the
totality of truth, lets us glimpse what we need to know to function on
this earth. Not to comfort us for the darkness of this world with a dim
preview of the light of the next world does this light come. On the
contrary, it is precisely the life of this world that is illuminated by this
light and is the object of its teachings and ordinances. And not just a
narrow corner of life, but life in its broadest conception and greatest
perfection.

This light-the Law-conducts us step by step through all of the
relationships of individual, family, and civic life, the life of the spirit
and the mind, of the body and the instincts, of word and deed. It
guides the life of the household, the community, the individual nation,
all nations, humanity-whose past it illuminates and whose future it
charts. And as for the present, it lets us see its significance as the
product of the past and the progenitor of the future.

The Law is a light which becomes brighter the purer we keep it,
the more fully we devote ourselves to its radiance. Its radiance enables
the Jewish man to walk through life with his eyes open, knowing what
he is, what he should be, and what is the meaning for him of the
individual and community life going on around him.
The Law gives us a standard by which to distinguish the true from
the false, the pure from the tainted, right from wrong, what is beneficial
from what is unsuitable- all according to the undeceivable
judgment of Godly Truth. It gives us a standard by which resolutely
and firmly to travel His Road without audacity and without recklessness,
without contempt for man and without worship of man, without
conceit and without self-abasement, but rather with the Godly lamp in
hand. Thus equipped, we can travel our road without fear, calmly and
earnestly, prepared for all eventualities
______________________________________

What a bright radiance of "wisdom" the light of the Law became
in the virile breast of our people! All around them everything began to
develop. Whole cultures sprang up and faded away. Everything
flourished that the ancient world, winding laurels about itself, recorded
upon the pages of history as the greatness of splendor of its own
culture and power, to be admired by all posterity unto eternity.
Persian, Greek, and Roman world empires celebrated their victories
of intellect and power. The world prostrated itself at the feet of
these all-conquering civilizations and basked with envious, blandishing
homage in the radiance of their splendor and culture.

All the while, in little Judea, a core of men within the nation lived
their own lives, wound the laurels of homage in honor of completely
different values. These men found the paths of their Calling within the
orbit of a completely different sun. And they built foundations of a
completely different structure in anticipation of a world-conquering
future. The Law was their value system, the Law was their sun. It was
the Law for which they built the future of their nation and the future of
mankind.

In vain did Persia unfold the impressive solemnity of its pomp. In
vain did Greece develop the brilliance of its science and the gracefulness
of its art which pleased the spirit and heart. In vain did Rome
display the world-conquering genius of its statecraft. The light of the
Law that shone upon Jewish men allowed them to recognize a lie
under any wrapping-no matter how gleaming. It armed them against
all temptations of Greek and Roman philosophy which appealed to
the senses; and against all enticement offered by Greek and Roman
practical wisdom which favored self-interest.
And when for the second time the temple, priesthood, state, and
kingdom of Judea sealed their own downfall through the apostasy
from God's Law-to fall prey to the Roman sword-the core of the
Jewish people emerged from the debris and ruins of an unprecedented
destruction. They carried with them the lamp of the Godly Law,
triumphantly confident, toward an unparalleled period of wandering
through the nations of the world.

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Message: 8
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 00:33:48 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] forums for pesak


Yitzchak
> Magen Avraham (I assume that's who you mean by MGA) does require
> aiting until zeis for kiddush (beginning of 494).


True but note the MGA requires repeating krias shema - since one does
not say KS al hamitta

Let's be medakdeik
Shma mina at least tlas:

1. The MGA pre-supposes davening ma'ariv before zman krias shema

2. He pre-supposes that when daveing .ma'ariv before the zman that KS
al hamitta is OK to make that up (minmally bedi'avad)

3 everyone presumablly stayed up all night. If not niskatnu haddoros
certainly cholsha haddoros!

-------------------


seder But as you know, saying bar'chu after tzeis vs. Qiddush after tzeis
may implly a full 30 minute differential or many more! EG I have a 25
minute walk home from the nursing home!

5. The MB for some reason ignored this MGA Conversely the AhS ignored the
Taz! I would say keep both options alive! (Micha's heuristics - viz. A
range of valid options!) For bachray yeshiva daven late. For nursing
homes daven early. For big shuls (EG Queens Jewish Center) offer BOTH!

After all it is what it is a minhag

I don't stop those saying a bracha on hallel on layl seder in shul
although imho it would be levattala!

Sometimes I wonder why people are more passionate about a disputed minhag
-EG Qitniyyos - than halachah mamash?!

There is nothing wrong about late ma'ariv. There is perhaps something
wrong in forcing the issue upon the unwilling or the unable.

Just as an aside how many Israeli eateries are qitniyyos free on Chol
hamo'ed Pesach? No one seems to force them to follow this ashkenazic
minhag

-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 9
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:59:02 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Reuven's sin


RDE:
> R' Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
>> It is pretty clear that Ralbag (in the thirteenth To'eles at the end of
>> Mikez) understands Reuven's sin literally.

> It is clear that the Abarbanel (Shmuel 2 11:11) understood Dovid as
> literally sinning. It also seems that R' Shimon bar Yochai also had this
> understanding (Avoda Zara 4b). The Be'er Sheva (Sanhedrin 107a)
> explicity says the two gemoras are in conflict. Rashi in Yoma (22b)
> seems to state that Dovid committed adultery. Regarding Reuven - the
> Abaranel (Bereishis 35:22) says it is a dispute among Chazal whether it
> is understood literally.

I would like to emphasize the possibility that the gmara's use of "eino
ela to'eh" did not necessarily imply that the literal understanding was
a solutely wrong

Rather:
One should not point out the literal sin (v'al kol pesha'I'm techaseh
b'ahava)

There may be shades of understanding of this


1 Hazal wanted to wipe out the original peshat and sub substitute a
kinder, gentler read.

2 sheetos did absolutely dispute the peshat in favor of a drash approach

3 as per the above abarbanel - a synthesis. IOW since the degree of sin
was disputed therefore why not be dan lekaf zechus?! Viz. it is "to'eh"
to assume the worst case scenario as fact, but to suspect it is OK.

EG So it is OK to say Reueven allegedly lay with Bilhah, but the passuk
is not proof positive so we should not further the allegation...

This is a case of the Hessed and Rachamim of TSBP versus the midas hadin
of Mikra. Xtians who read the "Old Testament" see a harsh treatment of
humanity and of sin.
But with TSBP we Jews see that this is tempered and balanced.

GS
-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile



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Message: 10
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 14:18:10 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai


On Tue, May 19, 2009 at 11:59:29PM -0700, Simon Montagu wrote:
: RSBA reminded me in an Areivim thread that the Targumim are from
: Sinai. This surprised me at first, because my memory was that at most
: they are described as "beRuahh hakodesh", but I was wrong: the Taz on
: SA OH 285 SK 2 explicitly says "hatargum yesh lo ma`ala she-nittan
: besinai".

: I have a number of questions on this.
...
: 2) How can this be reconciled with the gemara in Megilla? I can
: imagine one possibility: the targum was given as part of TBSP and
: Onkelos was the first to write it down. IMHO this fits well with the
: phrasing "amaro mipi RE veRY", but does anyone say so?

Aside from my questioning the assumption that a reconciliation /must/
exist...

The Rosh on RH pereq 4 (near the end), as one example, writes "And also,
it was their custom spread across most of Israel until the words of the
Ri"tz Ga'os reached them and some of the west returned to our minhag.
Accordin to this minhag, I place my heart in something and in me is
fulfilled that which raboseinu said -- 'anything to which BD nosenim
libam, in the end they will succeed. As it says 'halakhah leMosheh
miSinai'' ... And I didn't understand these things [speaking of the
structure of RH Mussar and the teqi'os within] were said to Moshe
miSinai..."

Another example -- did the Maharil's claim that certain tunes were miSinai
really mean he thought that we're davening to a nusach written by HQBH?

IIRC, we catch Chazal speaking of a din derabbanan as being miSinai, but
that I couldn't yet find.


Less contoversially, Aramaic doesn't always mean Aramaic. Aramaic
was their language for secular discourse, and stands in for all such
languages. Mal'akhim don't speak English any more than Aramaic -- rather,
the maamar chazal is saying that they don't listen to divrei chol. And
when saying Qaddish, we so to speak fool them into thinking this tefillah
isn't a davar shemiqdushah.

Just raising the issue when we discuss the relationship between Adam
haRishon or Ezra and Aramit.

Notice that it's at the end of nevu'ah that Ezra is "given the Torah
in Aramit". Kesav Ivris -- of saying apart (me'eiver) is replaced with
kesav Ashuris -- of osher. After galus Bavel, the Torah was more within
the world than before.

I didn't invest the time to hunt this up, because less extraordinary
claims should require less evidence. I was urged off-list, though, not
to write that HLmS doesn't always mean it dates back to Moshe without
first finding the Rosh.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 43rd day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 1 day in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Chesed sheb'Malchus: How does unity result in
Fax: (270) 514-1507                           good for all mankind?



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Message: 11
From: David Riceman <drice...@att.net>
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 15:05:18 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai


Micha Berger wrote:
> I was urged off-list, though, not
> to write that HLmS doesn't always mean it dates back to Moshe without
> first finding the Rosh.
>   
It's a mishna.  See Yadayim 4:3, Bartenura and Tosafos Yom Tov ad. loc.

David Riceman



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Message: 12
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:06:55 +0000
Subject:
[Avodah] Taryag Mitzvos Shamarti


I gave this Dvar Torah at the Teaneck Carlebach Minyan parshas Vayishlach

I'm Lavan garti

Rashi:
V'Saryag mitzvos Shamarti

Q: HUH?! Was Ya'akov Avinu a koehein gadol? A Yabbam? How could he
possibly have observed 613 Mitzvos?

A: (bekitzur). Ya'akov-Yisroel was the last of the avos the last to be
"kolel" the entire nation
IE he included every one of the eventual am Yisroel

Once the shevatim separated Levi'I'm and kohanim had separate mitzos
from others. There would never again be one individual who would
encompass all 613. It would take not a village but a nation!

And so this point was most applicable davka to Ya'akov avinu, viz.
That he preserve all 613 mitzvos

GS
-RRW
Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile




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Message: 13
From: rabbirichwol...@gmail.com
Date: Fri, 22 May 2009 18:24:51 +0000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Targumim from Sinai


HLmS doesn't always mean it dates back to Moshe without
first finding the Rosh.

:-)BBii!
-Micha"

Sorry
Rash is rav shimshin misens on the mishna

There is a case of truma from ammon moav etc. That is called hlmm but it is clearly impossibe

Rash explans it to mean old and accepted axiomatically

Z frankel ran with this to hirsch's consternation but imho frankel was more
correct to take things less literally and hirsch was wrong to draw a line
in the sand that was not so defensible

Iow since hirsch took a forward position he was an easy target to shlug up

Frankel demurred because in his scientific POV only what is proven misinai is and the unprovn is just that, it might or might not

And hirsch slammed him for not being courageous etc.  But frankel was simply not being ideological and refusing to state beliefs w/o evidence

Hirsch was wrong to push too hard a line

A revaddim talmuid of feldblum told me that there are 600 kushiyois on
graetz (who was a cynic imho) while frankel was a pioneer in a modern
understanding of tsbp

Hirsch rejected them equallly but hilddsheimer I think got the hilluk between neutral scientist and cynical wissenshaft and steered a moderate course

GS
-RRW



Sent via BlackBerry from T-Mobile


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Message: 14
From: "Chana Luntz" <ch...@kolsassoon.org.uk>
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:42:38 +0100
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous


I wrote:

> > really done something.  Whereas here in England, or even in Israel, you
> rush
> > through dinner, which is far too late for one to really be able to eat
> > (achila gassa really springs to mind) you get maybe an hour or two of

And RYG queried:
 
> Why does eating late imply achila gasa?  On the contrary, one would
> generally be hungrier than if he'd eaten earlier.  Do you mean that
> because of the lateness of the meal people are eating before Yom Tov?

I once had somebody tell me this was a male and female thing - this was
after I told him that I was stuck in meetings at work until nearly midnight,
and hence unable to have dinner, and then I was just too tired to eat, so
instead I went to bed. And he said to me, only a woman would have done that,
a man would have prioritised eating over sleeping.  I don't know if this is
true or not, not having done anything approaching a scientific study, but
certainly I, and others I know, will find that if it gets too late to eat,
we pretty much can't.  Eating before Yom Tov (eg chocolate) actually helps,
ie keeps the blood sugar level up so one can eat later, but if one doesn't
it is like the system decides there is no food forthcoming, so it might as
well shut down for the night, and after that eating even a kazayis of bread
becomes really very difficult.  Seder night runs into the same problems -
but with the matza, you just sit there and concentrate on eating the matza
for the sake of the mitzva, and everybody is else is quiet and focussed on
the same thing, so it is really a very different kind of eating, and once
you have had all the bits you have to have, it really doesn't matter if you
can't manage anything more than a bit of soup. And I figure that at any time
at which one has to also eat a substantial chunk of meat, the timing will be
a lot better (pesach in Jerusalem means starting seder at a far more
reasonable time than here in England).
 
It is clear that mileage varies on this one though - my husband also just
gets hungrier and eats more later, but this was in my personal note section,
which is about why I personally find Shavuos in Australia so much nicer. So
perhaps I should qualify the "one" as being only certain "ones".

> Yitzhak

Regards

Chana




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Message: 15
From: menucha <m...@inter.net.il>
Date: Sun, 24 May 2009 11:10:30 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] Ruth on Shavuot


Where is the primary source stating that a reason that Ruth is read on 
Shavuot is because of her giyur, and Matan Torah like giyur (or 
something like that?)
thanks,
menucha


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