Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 90

Tue, 19 May 2009

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Yitzhak Grossman <cele...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 16:07:32 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous


On Mon, 18 May 2009 08:07:35 -0400
Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> wrote:

> It is time for me to begin my annual campaign to try to convince 
> people that there is no reason to wait until after Tzas Ha Kochovim 
> to daven Maariv on the first night of Shavuous.
> 
> Many may be surprised to learn that it was not the practice in the 
> Ashkenazic world in the time of the Rishonim to wait to daven Maariv. 
> Also, it was not the practice of some Achronim.

But some Aharonim do encourage it (see Taz and Hak Ya'akov beginning
of OH 494), so how can you possibly say that "there is no reason to
wait"?  Do you believe that any Minhag instituted by Aharonim is
automatically invalid?  What about Rishonim? If they had a Minhag that
didn't exist in Talmudic or Geonic times, should we abandon it?

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters



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Message: 2
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:15:08 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] charity to the rich


<<If there is a community of people who are all members of, e.g., The
Stork Club, and one of them is fallen among thieves so that he can no
longer afford his Stork Club membership, then I think it is perfectly
reasonable for the other members of his community to chip in and pay
the Stork Club membership of their friend, so that he can continue to
show his face in his community.  And I think that those who do so can
properly and legitimately think of their act as tzedaqa, and so it
will be adjudged in the Heavenly Court.>>

The more usual psak is that this would be a mitzvah perhaps for the first year
of "poverty". There is ni mitzvah to keep a formerly rich person in his previous
status for ever. The mitzvah is to wean him slowly into the real world.

Hence, if the poor person is a heavy smoker he should be taught to quit smoking
and save the money (in addition to health benefits). However, this should be
done gradually and not overnight.

This past shabbat was Paamonim shabbat and the derashah we heard from a Paamonim
represnetative stresse dthis point base don several statements of chazal.

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 3
From: Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:03:53 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] electricity and shabbat


<<Permit me to add an electric stove/oven is generally considered "aish"
mamash or for Shabbos at least a "tol'dah". Either way AIUI both
incadescent bulbs and red-hot filaments would qualify as d'oraissos.>>

Not as clear as it sounds. An electric stove is used to cook food.
When turning on an incadescent lamp only a filament not food is heated.
True the gemara lists heating metal as a tolada of bishul but there the
purpose was to soften the metal which is not the purpose if heating
the lamp filament.

I am not an expert in flourescent lamps but am under the impression that
LED lights do not involve any issur beyond the basic electricity machloket.
Hence, according to RSZA it would seem that the prohibition is based on
accepted minhag.
Of course this makes a big difference in various beideved questions or
medical questions

I don't think that RSZA ever mentions it but according to his shita it
would seem that if one turned on a fan (or possibly an LED as above) in
an unusual manner then it is 2 derabanans which is allowed for a mitzvah
including oneg shabbat (eg it is very hot). I again stress that I haven't seen
anyone mention such a kulah but it seems to follow standard principles.


-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 4
From: D&E-H Bannett <db...@zahav.net.il>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 23:14:10 +0300
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Electricity


Re: << likely only turning on incandescent bulbs is a 
malacha de'oraisa becase of heating the filament to a very 
high temperature which is "aish">>

Every fluorescent has electrodes that become white hot 
because of electron or ion bombardment.  Many also have 
preheating to a reddish glow before the tube lights up.  The 
high temperature of the electrodes is required for the lamp 
to operate.

An incandescent bulb has one filament that is considered 
eish.  The fluorescent has two such sources of eish.  In a 
case where a person had to light a lamp on Shabbat for 
pikuach nefesh reasons, the psak of Rabbi Levi Yitzhak 
Halperin, the head of the Institute for Science and Halakha 
in Jerusalem was to light the incandescent.

The light from the fluorescent coating of the tube is 
"cold".


David 




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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:27:09 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] The Sin Of Reuven


On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 11:19:24AM -0600, Jay F Shachter wrote:
: Another possibility is that the straightforward meaning of Genesis
: 35:22 is different from what we think it is.  This is the position
: taken by the author of Hakkthav V'Haqqabala, a book whose single
: purpose is to argue that the straightforward meaning of various verses
: in the Torah is different from what we think it is...

As the title states, it's to show the unity of TSBK and TSBP. Not that
peshat isn't peshat, but that derash is much more richly implied than it
seems.

:                                                      Many of the
: arguments are unconvincing, and the book is full of bogus etymologies,
: but it is still, in my opinion, very much worth reading, at least once
: (Hirsch's commentaries are also full of bogus etymologies, but that
: does not mean that the commentaries are not worth reading)...

"Bogus" is a bit of a harsh way to put it. You may disagree with the
etymologies, but they weren't "fraudulently or deceptively imitative".
That implies a level of manipulation one can not accord HKVHK or RSRH.
Ben Yehudah uses the word "bogus" as a translation of "mezuyaf". A poor
choice of term.

I am not an authority on HKVHK, but R' Matisyahu Clark (father of R'
Eli Clark who a number of us know from around the O web) used Hirsch's
principles to address every shoresh Hirsch's discusses. There is a
consistency of methodology with large explanatory power. Because of that,
I find it hard to doubt the basic system even if some of the bigger
"stretches" from usual meaning to something that fits in the group
may be questionable on the individual level.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 39th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                          reliable person?



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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:32:43 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Can I not give to a tzedakah collector if he


On Mon, May 18, 2009 at 02:19:27PM -0600, Jay F Shachter wrote:
: In contrast, if I pay this gentleman's Stork Club membership, I do not
: think that I will be credited with the mitzva of tzedaqa.

I think you would, but it's poor triage. Given that that money would
come out of money budgeted for things like helping someone just simply
eat, and that (unlike his fellow club members) you can't quite call him
"aniyei irkha", it's not the ideal place to put your tzedaqah money.

This, more than the obligation to help someone ween themselves off of dei
machsero, that limits giving to someone who can manage, but is depressed
over the loss of their former riches.

I think also aniyei irkha qodemin also means that you're pushed to give
money to people you identify with more, thus naturally causing people
to place more weight when deciding what they could afford to give.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 39th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                          reliable person?



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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:10:14 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] shabbas 55b; neged pshat?


On Sun, May 17, 2009 at 01:16:24PM -0400, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: Mikra:  metaphorical
: TSBP:   normative
: 
: Mikra:  Middas Haddin
: TSBP:   Middas Harachamim
: 
: Mikra: Dinei Shamayin
: TSBP: Dinei Adam
: 
: Mikra: Psycholgical imagery. Visualization.  imagination.  Spiriutal
: perspective [hashkafa]
: TSBP: Practical applications of the above to the real world

Miqra: Mussar
Derashah: Halakhah

And if you look at Nach, my dichotomy holds -- although there are no
derashos, the thrust of the stories, and of the shmuessin given by the
neviim is that of middos and values. Why assume the peshat of the first
category of Tanakh is any different in role?

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 39th day, which is
mi...@aishdas.org        5 weeks and 4 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Netzach sheb'Yesod: What is imposing about a
Fax: (270) 514-1507                          reliable person?



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Message: 8
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:35:17 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Are Upsherin and Bonfires Taken from the


I wrote:
> On the other hand, there is also the possibility of taking
> something which was originally objectionable, and
> "kashering" it, infusing it with kedusha and new meaning.
> Like the kashering and toveling of a kitchen utensil, this
> is done by carefully removing the tumah and objectionable
> aspects, and replacing them them with kedusha and proper
> kavanos. ... Perhaps someone can suggest an example of
> this which predates the Zohar.

I see that several people have already posted some good ideas. But a lurker who prefers to remain anonymous sent me this idea offline:

> Korbanot, a la the Rambam that it stemmed from AZ. Of
> course, it was HKBH who served as Mashgiach in kashering them.

This is such a perfect example of what I was looking for, that I can't imagine any better.

He made reference to "HKBH served as Mashgiach". I take this to mean that
it was HaShem Himself, Who wrote of korbanos in the Torah. His point might
be that this serves as a precedent which allows us to kasher ideas which
had been objectionable. Or his point might be that only HaShem could do
such a thing, and we do not have the ability to do such a thing properly.

But I'd argue against both of those ideas, for it was already the Avos who had kashered this idea, and brought proper korbanos to HaShem.

On the other hand, perhaps I should review the Rambam which my lurker
refers to. My recollection is that proper korbanos were originally brought
to HaShem in Gan Eden. The AZ-niks treifed up *our* idea; we didn't kasher
*theirs*.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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Message: 9
From: "Elazar M. Teitz" <r...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:14:27 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] neged pshat?: maiseh reuvein v. Gm Shabbas


      The question was asked, "Any thoughts why the chumash uses the phrase vyk ET Bilhah (and not vyk IM Bilaha)?"
      One answer is because in reference to people, "es" is at least as
      common as "im."  It is the form used exclusively in the parsha of
      arayos in K'doshim; it is the form used in the sh'vuah of a sotah.  
     Both forms are used, seemingly interchangeably, in the parsha of b'nos
     Lot. The Malbim gives an explanation there, and in Metzora Siman 166,
     for the difference between the forms.
EMT 
 
____________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
From: harveyben...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 14:59:49 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
[Avodah] maiseh reuven kepshuto?: Radak, Ibn Ezra,






re: avodah discussion re: shabbas 55b

from: http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/eng/vayishlach/pos.html? 

A tannaitic dispute: ?Unstable as water [Heb. pahaz],
you shall excel no longer? (Gen.49:40).? Rabbi Eliezer says:? You
acted rashly [pazta], you were found wanting [havta],
you demeaned yourself [zalta]. ? Rabbi Joshua says:
? You overstepped the law [pasa?ata al dat], you
sinned [hatata], you fornicated [zanita].
? Rabban Gamaliel says: ? You prayed [pilalta],
you entreated [halta], your prayer shone through [zarha].
? Rabban Gamaliel said: ? We still need to hear out Moda?i; Rabbi
Eliezer ha-Moda?i says:? Reverse the letters in the word and interpret
it:? you were shaken [zu?aza?ta], you refrained [hirta?ta],
sin departed [parha] from you.

 ? 

Even though in his commentary on the Torah Rashi
interpreted, ?he lay ? since he rumpled the bed clothes, Scripture
treats him as if he had slept with her? (and, according to Bahya, Nahmanides
was inclined to hold a similar view), many exegetes interpreted ?and he lay? at
face value, such as Radak, who wrote that Reuben ?went to Bilhah?s tent and
slept with her.?? The same follows from Ibn Ezra?s comment on this verse,
?The Rabbis interpreted this aptly: ? But a clever man conceals his
humiliation (Prov. 12:16).?? In other words, the Rabbis did well by
covering up Reuben?s disgrace. ? That means that there was a disgraceful
act, but that the Rabbis covered it up, and well that they did. ? Rashbam
had a similar interpretation of Genesis 49:3:

 ? 




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Message: 11
From: "Prof. Levine" <llev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 18:17:26 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Waiting To Daven Ma'ariv On Shavuos


A moderator has suggested that this issue go back to Avodah, so here 
is my reply addressed to Avodah.

YL

At 04:30 PM 5/18/2009, David J Havin wrote:
>While it is true that Bnei Ashkenaz daven Ma'ariv early on Erev 
>Shavuos, it ought be noted that they do not recite Kiddush until 
>nightfall; similarly, they wait until nightfall to recite Kiddush on 
>the first night of Pesach and Succos.

The first night of Succos and the first two nights of Pesach I 
understand.  However, what reason is there to wait on the seventh and 
8th days of Pesach, on Rosh Hashana and on Shavuous?

YL

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Message: 12
From: "David J Havin" <djha...@iprimus.com.au>
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 09:47:09 +1000
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] FW: Waiting To Daven Ma'ariv On Shavuos


In Ashkenaz, Mincha and Ma?ariv on Shabbath and Yomtov were held separately,
with the latter being offered at nightfall.  However, during the weekdays
and on Erev Shabbath and Erev Yomtov, Mincha commenced approximately 1?
hours before nightfall (without Aleinu) and Ma?ariv followed immediately
thereafter.

The counting of the Omer was an important Mitzvah.  Like many other
Mitzvoth, observance together with a Minyan gave a special meaning to it.
As one could not fulfill the counting of the Omer before it was completely
dark and as Ma?ariv finished before nightfall, many of the small rural
communities in Germany had fixed arrangements that a Minyan would meet at a
private home at the correct time to count the Omer.  As an aside, children
were encouraged to count the Omer and were rewarded on Shavuoth with a
special cake.

This was so even on Erev Shavuoth, whereas almost all Synagogues today wait
until nightfall so as to fulfil the obligation of counting seven complete
weeks (it being thought that starting Ma?ariv before nightfall would mean
that the last day of the Omer had been truncated).  However, it should be
noted that Kiddush was not recited at home until nightfall and this was
considered sufficient compliance with Temimos.

A full discussion of early Ma?ariv can be found in Professor Jacob Katz?s
masterful article ?Alterations in the Time of the Evening Service (Ma?ariv):
An Example of the Interrelationship between Religious Customs and their
Social Background? which appears in his ?Divine Law in Human Hands, Case
Studies in Halakhic Flexibility? (Magnes Press, 1998, pages 88-127).

DJH

 

From: Yitzchok Levine [mailto:Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu] 
Sent: Tuesday, 19 May 2009 9:18 AM
To: David J Havin; AVODAH; 'Prof. Levine'
Subject: Re: FW: Waiting To Daven Ma'ariv On Shavuos

 

At 06:33 PM 5/18/2009, David J Havin wrote:



They waited on the first night of Shavuos because of Temimos.  I did not say
that they waited on other occasions.


So Temimos is important when it comes to Kiddush, but not when it comes to
Maariv. How are we to understand this?  To me it seems that it would apply
either to both or to neither.

YL 





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Message: 13
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:17:51 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] FW: Waiting To Daven Ma'ariv On Shavuos


At 06:33 PM 5/18/2009, David J Havin wrote:
>They waited on the first night of Shavuos because of Temimos.  I did 
>not say that they waited on other occasions.

So Temimos is important when it comes to Kiddush, but not when it 
comes to Maariv. How are we to understand this?  To me it seems that 
it would apply either to both or to neither.

YL
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Message: 14
From: Yitzchok Levine <Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 19:26:57 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Even More on Not Waiting to Daven Maariv on Shavuous


Reb Chaim G. Steinmetz pointed out the following to me -  You should 
add - "and they must have made kiddush early"...

Thus, the last paragraph of what I sent out about this should have read

Unless they "davened"  through their learning, I have to assume that 
it would have taken them longer than an hour and 40 minutes to study 
this body of material. If so, then I must conclude that they did not 
wait 72 minutes to daven Maariv on the first night of Shavuous!! They 
must have davened Maariv early, and they must have made kiddush 
early!!!! Only by doing so could they have finished davening, eaten 
and learned what they did by Chatzos.

All of the above is, of course, speculation on my part.

YL

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Message: 15
From: harveyben...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 17:15:48 -0700 (PDT)
Subject:
[Avodah] r. ovadia; bullfighting; eiva, etc....


From: http://www.koltorah.org/ravj/Bullfightandzoo.htm;

Bullfighting:

Rav Ovadia characterizes the institution of bullfighting as ?a culture of
sinful and cruel people? that runs counter to Torah values. An important Torah
value is to avoid inflicting gratuitous pain on animals (Tzaar Baalei Chaim).
The Gemara (Bava Metzia 32-33) indicates that Tzaar Baalei Chaim is a Torah
level prohibition. According to the Gemara (Berachot 40a), it is improper to
eat before one has fed his animals...[snip] 

The following Halacha demonstrates the priority Chazal accord Tzaar Baalei
Chaim. The Gemara (Shabbat 128b) permits helping an animal that fell into a
water ditch on Shabbat by supporting it with a pillow, even though it is a
violation of the rabbinical prohibition to render an item Muktzeh on
 Shabbat.
The pillow was not Muktzeh when Shabbat began and becomes Muktzeh when it is
placed beneath the animal on Shabbat. Chazal waived this rabbinical prohibition
because of concern for Tzaar Baalei Chaim. This passage in the Gemara is
codified as normative by the Rambam (Hilchot Shabbat 25:26) and Shulchan Aruch
(Orach Chaim 305:19). In fact, this Halacha serves as the basis for the
Shulchan Aruch?s (O.C. 305:20) permission to ask a non-Jew to milk a cow on
Shabbat. Rav Ovadia points out that it is rare for Chazal to waive a rabbinical
prohibition relating to Shabbat. Tzaar Baalei Chaim is one of the very few
considerations that merit such a waiver.

HB:? why would chazal waive a rabbinical prohibition
(muktzeh) to alleviate the pain of an animal, while at the same time we are
told that we can save an a?y on shabbas only because of ?eiva? (enmity)?* 

Can we apply the following kal vechomer:
 if to prevent an
animal from suffering that is not mechuyav on any mitzvos then for sure we
should be able to save a life of a ben adam, who is chayav 7 mitzovs and who
was/is created in Hashem?s image, by violating the shabbas?? [either midoraisa (a"y), or midirabonnon (muktzeh - animal) or? both...]
hb

 ? 

* And/or if we (our doctor?s) don?t save them on Shabbas,
they will come to not save us.? 

 ? 

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Message: 16
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Tue, 19 May 2009 00:24:16 EDT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Are Upsherin and Bonfires Taken from the






From: "Mandel, Seth" <mand...@ou.org>     


>>I am coming from a different direction.  I do not have  problem with 
people adopting new customs, as long as they pose no problem  halakhically.
What I do object to is hypocrisy.  While I doubt any  particular 
person here is being hypocritical, the stance of various  movements 
within Judaism is, if not hypocritical, at the very least  
self-contradictory.
If one does not object to adopting new customs, then why,  pray tell, 
do some groups make a big issue out of wearing the European fur  hats 
(AKA shtreimels or spodiks)?  <<
 
 


>>>>>
 
There are two different trends at work here in Jewish history (not only  
among chassidim but among all Jewish groups) and they are A. the tendency  to 
gradually change and adapt to the ways of the cultures around us and B.  the 
tendency to resist change.  Although they seem mutually contradictory,  in 
fact both tendencies are constantly operative.  Change is inevitable in  any 
human society.  The notable thing about Jews (Torah Jews) is that we  
approach any type of change very warily and cautiously.  Changing while  
resisting change is not "hypocrisy" but the normal Jewish way of doing  things.  It 
has made us, Orthodox Jews, largely immune to the kind of  radical and 
extreme changes that would tend to lead to  our extinction,  the kind of changes 
adopted by our C and R  brethren.
 


--Toby  Katz
=========








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Message: 17
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:26:49 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] r. ovadia; bullfighting; eiva, etc....


harveyben...@yahoo.com wrote:

> HB:  why would chazal waive a rabbinical prohibition
> (muktzeh) to alleviate the pain of an animal, while at the same time we are
> told that we can save an a?y on shabbas only because of ?eiva? (enmity)?*

Because that's d'oraisa.

> Can we apply the following kal vechomer: if to prevent an
> animal from suffering that is not mechuyav on any mitzvos then for sure we
> should be able to save a life of a ben adam, who is chayav 7 mitzovs and who
> was/is created in Hashem?s image, by violating the shabbas?? [either 
> midoraisa (a"y), or midirabonnon (muktzeh - animal) or  both...]

That's a chomer vakal!   You can use this to justify drabanans, maybe,
but how can it justify de'oraisas?  For that we need the eiva argument.

But in fact even for derabanans your kal vachomer doesn't work.  Tzaar
baalei chayim is an explicit de'oraisa ("lo sir'eh"), so it makes sense
that it overrides issurim derabbanan.  But where do you see an explicit
de'oraisa for tzaar nochri?


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher



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Message: 18
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 18 May 2009 21:38:34 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Even More on Not Waiting to Daven Maariv on


They probably learned while waiting for ma'ariv.  Speculation on my part.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com


On Mon, 18 May 2009 19:26:57 -0400 Yitzchok Levine
<Larry.Lev...@stevens.edu> writes:
Reb Chaim G. Steinmetz pointed out the following to me -  You should add
- "and they must have made kiddush early"...

Thus, the last paragraph of what I sent out about this should have read

Unless they "davened"  through their learning, I have to assume that it
would have taken them longer than an hour and 40 minutes to study this
body of material. If so, then I must conclude that they did not wait 72
minutes to daven Maariv on the first night of Shavuous!! They must have
davened Maariv early, and they must have made kiddush early!!!! Only by
doing so could they have finished davening, eaten and learned what they
did by Chatzos. 

All of the above is, of course, speculation on my part. 

YL 
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