Avodah Mailing List

Volume 26: Number 58

Mon, 30 Mar 2009

• 1. Re: Women at a funeral (Ilana Sober Elzufon)
• 2. Re: More on Where did the wheat used to bake your matzos come from? (Zev Sero)
• 3. Has anyone seen anything on a preference for a tzibbur to be yotzeh with shomeiah koneh/amen versus each individual saying the bracha on their own? (Shlomo Pick)
• 4. Re: women at a funeral (Elazar M. Teitz)
• 5. Re: women at a funeral (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: women at a funeral (Harry Maryles)
• 7. Re: [Areivim] dangers of birchat hachama (Mike Miller)
• 8. Fw: Women at a funeral (Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer)
• 9. Women and Levaya Minhagim (Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer)
• 10. V'Shilam vs. V'Shileim (Joseph C. Kaplan)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] dangers of birchat hachama (Rich, Joel)
• 12. Re: Some Interesting Remarks About Birchas HaChama (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 13. Re: Birchat Hachama (kennethgmil...@juno.com)
• 14. Re: Birchat Hachama (Rich, Joel)
• 15. Re: Fw: Women at a funeral (Zev Sero)
• 16. Re: birchat hachama (Saul Mashbaum)

Without getting into the halachic/aggadic substance of the question - I have
seen women give hespedim at funerals conducted by reputable mainstream
Orthodox rabbis (and, for that matter, for Orthodox rabbis).

The real question in this case is about pluralism. Do official and
quasi-official bodies like the Rabbanut and the Chevra Kadisha have an
obligation to permit anything that is within the generally accepted bounds
of Orthodox practice, whether or not they personally rule that the action is
permitted? In which case, how exactly do we define those bounds? Or should
they follow their own halachic conscience, and forbid activities that they
consider assur? Same problem as we had last year with heter mechira.

Another aspect of the question - what are the boundaries of the Chevra
Kadisha's authority? On what basis are they authorized to rule what may or
may not take place at a funeral? What if a daughter wants not only to say a
hesped, but to recite kaddish - a less widespread practice, but one I
believe is permitted by some poskim? What if the family are non-Orthodox
egalitarian, and want to recite a "gender-balanced" version of prayers or do
some other totally out of halachic bounds activity? Is there some room for
them to say such things, and for the Chevra Kadisha to just ignore it (and
can the mourners, who are emotionally vulnerable, probably intimidated by
the rabbis, and not necessarily conversant with all the nuances of these
halachot which they may not have much experience with, find out that there
is room?)?

- Ilana
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Yitzchok Levine wrote:

> Therefore, the wheat that was used to make the matzos that the B'nei 
> Yisroel ate at their seder in Mitzraim definitely was watered by irrigation!
> Furthermore, it turns out that many places in Arizona receive more 
> rainfall than in Egypt. See http://alliance.la.asu.edu/maps/AZ_rain_web.pdf
> Thus, if anything, the contention should be that one should not use 
> wheat that was watered via rainfall, and all of our anscestors who did 
> were not following the original tradition!!!! >:-}


The mitzvah of matzah, though, was not given to be fulfilled in Egypt
but in EY, which, Hashem tells us is "not like the Land of Egypt which
you left, where you sow your seed and irrigate it with your foot like a
vegetable garden", but is rather "a land of mountains and valleys, which
drinks water from the rain of the sky".  And that is the wheat our
ancestors were commanded to make matzoh from; they were not to return to
Egypt even to import horses, let alone wheat!

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Re: Has anyone seen anything on a preference for a tzibbur to be yotzeh with
shomeiah koneh/amen versus each individual saying the bracha on their own?

See the tosefta brachot, Lieberman ed. chapter, 6, halakha 15, p. 37, lines
68 ff. (I use this one as it's the one in the responsa project and the
easiest to locate.  

The issue there is birchot hamitzva, with the tanna giving preference to one
saying the birchat hamitzva for many individuals doing one mitzvah.  This is
the custom of the Yemenites in sefirat ha'omer, the chazzan or rabbi makes
the birchat hamitzva for all of the congregation and they answer amen and
then count for themselves (in contra to the psak of the mishna brurah).

This is what you do with the mitzvah of shmi'at kol shofar. The ba'al tokea
makes the bracha and you all answer amen.

Does it work for birchot hashevach?

Well the Rambam's shita in proreis al hashmah is that the chazzan says the
birchot kriyat shma, and he is motzei the congregation even when they answer
amen, and this is bezibbur (hil. Tefila, 8:5; 9:1; 9:9).

A friend ask a poseik if his kids said Kiddush by themselves on Friday nite
for chinuch, when they became bar mitvah should they stop and be yotzei with
the father or continue to make their own? The poseik answered, if you want
to be mechanech your kids, then teach them the din of the tosefta, which is
the din of the tannaim and no one is cholek.

Pesach sameiach vekasher.

shlomo

 

 

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<I'm surprised that she was allowed to follow the coffin at all.
Many communities are careful not to allow a man's offspring to follow him,
and many make an explicit announcement to that effect.  (I've heard that
in Yerushalayim they're so careful about this that they don't allow them
to go to the grave at all, even by a different route, and that they even
extend it to women's funerals.) >  
     The reason given for the minhag has no applicability at all to a woman's funeral.
     Lately, the chevros have been allowing descendants to go to the
     gravesite before the funeral procession, but to stand four amos away
     until the body has been lowered into the grave. This was the procedure
     at the levaya of my father z"l.
     The story that's told is that at the funeral of R. Chatzkel Sarna,
     rosh yeshiva of Chevron, the chevra kadisha mades its usual
     announcement, "Kinder geien nit noch dem aron" ("Children do not go
     after the coffin").  A son of his, no great tzaddik, said, "Gut, vel
     ich geien far'n aron." ("Fine, so I'll go before the coffin").  The
     chevros, which had been under pressure -- especially from Americans --
     to allow children to attend, accepted that solution, and will now use
     it when requested.
EMT
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Elazar M. Teitz wrote:
>> <I'm surprised that she was allowed to follow the coffin at all.
>> Many communities are careful not to allow a man's offspring to follow him,
>> and many make an explicit announcement to that effect.  (I've heard that
>> in Yerushalayim they're so careful about this that they don't allow them
>> to go to the grave at all, even by a different route, and that they even
>> extend it to women's funerals.) >  

> The reason given for the minhag has no applicability at all to a woman's
> funeral.

Exactly.  And yet, AIUI, the tradition in Y'm has been to extend it that
far.  I don't know why, or on what authority, or whether there was ever an
adam gadol who endorsed this extension, but AIUI it is so.  My point was to
show how careful people are about this, and therefore to express my surprise
that this rov, who was concerned about women speaking at a funeral, and who
wouldn't allow the daughter to walk in front of the men, seemed to have no
problem with her following the coffin after the men.


-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

--- On Sun, 3/29/09, Elazar M. Teitz <r...@juno.com> wrote:



<I'm surprised that she was allowed to follow the coffin at all.
Many communities are careful not to allow a man's offspring to follow him,
and many make an explicit announcement to that effect.>? 
?
???? The reason given for the minhag has no applicability at all to a woman's funeral.
???? Lately, the chevros?have been allowing descendants to go to the
gravesite before the funeral procession, but to stand four amos away until
the body has been lowered into the grave.?This was the procedure at the
levaya of my father z"l.
---------------------------------------------------------------------
?
This is exactly what happened with me. I went ahead of the funeral
procession and was made to stand back more than 4 amos from the Kever
during the Kevurah of my father. But I actually particiated in the Kevurah
of my mother a few months ago.
?
That children are not allowed at their father's Kevurah is a Minhag
Yerushamyim that I believe dates back to the time of Yehoshua. I believe it
is Kabalistic - and has to do with the inyanim of Hotzoas Zera and the
potential Neshomas that thereby didn't make it to this world? - coming back
as Kateigors against the niftar?to?living children who did.
?
HM

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/




      
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It was written on Areivim
> the police ... disallowed a birchat hachama at sunrise.

Would this be lechatchila? Is there a reason to say birkas hachama at
sunrise, as opposed to davening k'vasikin and then saying birkas
hachama right afterwards?

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh

    The prohibition of Women at the Beit haKevarot during a funeral is
    based on the Zohar VaYakhel sec. 196 (haSatan merakeid...).  Shulkhan
    Arukh Y.D. sec. 359, seif 1 indicates that there are different mihagim
    about women coming to a funeral; and in seif 2 (based on the above
    Zohar) writes that one should be careful that women should not come
    particpate in the fumeral; Shach ad loc. subsec. 2. 
    The many communities throughout the world who are Meikel, Rely on the
    Resp. Beit Lehem Yehuda, sec. 359 - particularly if men and women
    remain separated.	   
    The issue is Discussed in Pnei Barukh Chap. 5, Parag. 10, note 32. See
    also Resp. Mareh haBazak II:94 and III:73. For a discussion of the
    Resp. material, see at length the excellent review (in Hebrew) of R.
    Mordechai Avadiel:	http
    ://upload.kipa.co.il/media-upload/kulech/kulech6581.DOC
    The issue of a woman giving a hesped, is related to the above as well
    as to tsniut considerations/sensitivities. I remind everyone of the
    furor when Rav Mordechai Eliyahu objected to a woman giving a shiur in
    front of men.  The above Zohar seems to maintain that there is a
    particular problem of Hirhur at a funeral.	
    Many stringent Hevra Kadishot will permit women to eulogise after they have left [ - what you do when they are not around is not their responsibility]. 
--------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: Fri...@mail.biu.ac.il


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Eli Turkel 
  To: avodah ; Aryeh Frimer 
  Sent: Saturday, March 28, 2009 8:33 PM
  Subject: women at a funeral


  see

  http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3693161,00.html

  is there any halacha (not minhag) against women speaking at a funeral?
  In other places I have seen it

  -- 
  Eli Turkel
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    In the United States, the general custom I observed at religious
    funerals was to have all family members (male and female) go through
    the shura together which was made up of men and women. At my first
    funeral in Israel ca 1974, I noted that the Chevra Kadisha instructed
    only the men to make a shura for only the male mourners.  I asked the
    head of the Chevra Kadisha and he indicated that that's what is found
    in Rav Tackatchinsky's Gesher haChaim.  Indeed, Rav Tuckachinsky
    indicates that that was Minhag Eretz Yisrael, but he also notes that
    women don't go to Funerals at all (Based on a Zohar in Pekudai that the
    Satan is Meraked).	Needless to say, the women mourners of our Anglo
    Saxon community in Rehovot were very hurt and offended, especially
    since this is not a halakhic issue and since all knew that the Minhag
    in the Galut was otherwise.
    I then consulted with Rav Simcha Kook. On the one hand, he didn't want
    to contravene the Minhag of the Chevra Kadisha; on the other hand, he
    understood that the women needed the communal Nihum Aveilum.  We agreed
    that the men would make a shura for the men and the women for the
    women.  It took a few times for me to teach the women of our community
    what to do and what to say, but it now occurs without my intervention. 
    When someone is buried at Eretz haChaim Cemetery near Beit Shemesh, the
    same happens. The head of the Chevra Kaddisha makes his announcement
    (Men for men), and	- if the family wants it - we make sure there is
    women's shura for the women. 
    At Eretz haChaim Cemetery they also don't have women Eulogizing. I
    spoke openly with the head of the Chevra Kaddisha and he indicated that
    after they leave, "we can do as we like."  So I arrange for the women
    to speak at the kever then.  Recently, however, I was at a funeral at
    Eretz haChaim where a daughter did eulogize her father before the
    Kevurah. I spoke again with the head of the Chevra Kaddisha and he
    indicated that they prefer that women not Eulogize - but if the family
    insists they won't make a scene.

--------------------------------------------------------
Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: Fri...@mail.biu.ac.il

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Although I know nothing at all about these matters I checked with a leading expert who emailed me the following:

"a quick check shows that the only correct reading here is veshilam, with 
patah under the lamed.
(this is a piel form).

this is the reading, e.g. in the well-known Leningrad codex of 1008 C.E.
it is also the reading in Breuer's editions of the tanakh.

(it can also be found in many "standard" editions, such as the miqraot 
gedolot of 1525;
the warsaw edition of 1860; etc).

the printer who printed veshileim, with zeireh under the lamed, was clearly 
influenced by the
"standard" form that most people are familiar with. he was also possibly 
influenced by the form
earlier in the chapter 5:16 - veshilaeim."

Joseph Kaplan
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Would this be lechatchila? Is there a reason to say birkas hachama at
sunrise, as opposed to davening k'vasikin and then saying birkas hachama
right afterwards?

-- Mike Miller
Ramat Bet Shemesh
====================================
1. Does entire orb of sun need to be seen or just the first showing?
2. depends on the relative weight you give zrizin makdimim (is zrizin
durait, what if it's  cloudy....)
KT
Joel Rich
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R' Micha Berger wrote:
> And therefore the driving issue was making an event rare enough
> to become a big deal (unlike thunder or seeing the ocean or a
> desert) and yet frequent enough for most people to do it more
> than once, and that it be transmittable mimetically.

If we ignore the fact that most one-year-olds are unaware of what's going
on at Birchas Hachama, then we can say that at a person's *first* Birchas
Hachama, he/she is as a mean (average) age of 14. And thus 42 at the
second, and 70 at the third.

If we also accept 70 as a human's typical lifespan, then this means that a
typical person experiences (without rounding) three Birchas Hachamas in a
typical lifetime.

I realize that there are a lot of "if"s in that, but I find this number to be very interesting in context of transmitting all this to the generations.

Akiva Miller

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R' Joel Rich asked:
> Has anyone seen anything on a preference for a tzibbur to be
> yotzeh with shomeiah koneh/amen versus each individual saying
> the bracha on their own?

I can't offer any written sources, but the practice I've seen is that we
are yotzay with someone else's bracha when we are dependent on him for the
mitzva, and we say a bracha ourselves when we are able to do the mitzva
ourselves.

Examples: We are yotzay with the leader's bracha for shofar and megillah. We say our own bracha for hallel and lulav.

That's not only in shul, but home as well: One cannot say his own kiddush
or hamotzi unles he has his own full cup of wine, or his own lechem mishne.
The exception demonstrates the rule: At the seder, where everyone has his
own cup, in many families everyone says his own kiddush.

I've heard it said that the ideal "B'rov Am Hadras Melech" is where not
only the multitude gathers together to do a mitzvah in unison, but they do
it via a single individual, i.e., by being yotzay together through one
person's saying it. I've also heard that although this is true l'halacha,
it is not viable l'maaseh: We fear that some people will not have proper
kavana and will not be yotzay unless they say it themselves.

Akiva Miller

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I've heard it said that the ideal "B'rov Am Hadras Melech" is where not
only the multitude gathers together to do a mitzvah in unison, but they
do it via a single individual, i.e., by being yotzay together through
one person's saying it. I've also heard that although this is true
l'halacha, it is not viable l'maaseh: We fear that some people will not
have proper kavana and will not be yotzay unless they say it themselves.

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
Yet , as you point out, we do it by areas where we need the person's act
and generally someone gets up and says the shatz will have in
mind....and we should all have in mind.....
To me, if this explanation is correct, it implies brov am is a fairly
weak preference.
KT
Joel Rich
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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
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Prof. Aryeh A. Frimer wrote:
> ???
>     The prohibition of Women at the Beit haKevarot during a funeral is 
> based on the Zohar VaYakhel sec. 196 (haSatan merakeid...).  Shulkhan 
> Arukh Y.D. sec. 359, seif 1 indicates that there are different mihagim 
> about women coming to a funeral; and in seif 2 (based on the above 
> Zohar) writes that one should be careful that women should not come 
> particpate in the fumeral; Shach ad loc. subsec. 2.

This reading confuses se'ifim 1 and 2.  Se'if 1 says the women should
go after the coffin rather than before it.  Se'if 2 says they shouldn't
go to the cemetery.  Those are two different things, and the Shach makes
that distinction explicit, saying that they *should* follow the coffin,
but not to the cemetery.   IOW they do participate in the funeral, but
not in the burial.


>     The many communities throughout the world who are Meikel, Rely on 
> the Resp. Beit Lehem Yehuda, sec. 359 - particularly if men and women 
> remain separated.

Specifically that the only problem is in facing the women, because the
mal'ach hamavet goes before them, so the solution is not to prevent them
from going but to take care not to face them, especially on their way
back.  He also points out that this does not apply if the person died
without the assistance of the mal'ach hamavet, i.e. he was killed.

-- 
Zev Sero                      The trouble with socialism is that you
z...@sero.name                 eventually run out of other people?s money
                                                     - Margaret Thatcher

Purists may be interested by the following explanation of Phil
Chernofsky of the OU Israel center why the bracha we say at birchat
hachama is more precisely "...oseh maase v'reishit"
(or "oseh maase v'reishis').


http://www.ou.org/torah/tt/5769/vayikra69/dav.htm

Saul Mashbaum


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