Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 425

Thu, 18 Dec 2008

• 1. Re: Horaas Shaah (R Davidovich)
• 2. Making Coffee on Shabbos (Steven J Scher)
• 3. Re: Making Coffee on Shabbos (Zev Sero)
• 4. Re: Making Coffee on Shabbos (Gershon Dubin)
• 5. Re: Making Coffee on Shabbos (Micha Berger)
• 6. Re: Horaas Shaah (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: Horaas Shaah (Micha Berger)
• 8. Re: Did RSRH Write LH about Shimon and Levi (Saul Mashbaum)
• 9. Re: City names after AZ (D&E-H Bannett)
• 10. Re: Making Coffee on Shabbos (Steven J Scher)
• 11. Re: Making Coffee on Shabbos (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. Re: Horaas Shaah (Michael Kopinsky)
• 13. Re: Horaas Shaah (Yitzhak Grossman)
• 14. Jewish Hyper-sensitivity guided by Mesora (Meir Rabi)
• 15. shape of the menorah (Eli Turkel)
• 16. Re: shape of the menorah (Micha Berger)
• 17. Re: Horaas Shaah (Micha Berger)
• 18. dreidel (Eli Turkel)

I think people misunderstand other people's misunderstanding of RSRH's Torah
Im Derech Eretz (TIDE) model.

Proponents of TIDE think the chareidi perception is that RSRH only intended
it as a Horaas Shaah.

I think the Israeli and Lakewood Chareidi perception is that TIDE WAS a
horaas shaah, suited to German Jewry's needs, regardless of how RSRH viewed
it.

There is a big difference between the two perceptions.

RD
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081217/23a3a647/attachment-0001.htm>

OC 319:9 reads:

It is forbidden to put dregs inside a strainer even when the strainer was
hanging before Shabbos, but if the dregs were put inside before Shabbos it 
is permitted to pour water over them until the water becomes clear.

[This is based on Shabbos 139b].

[BTW: Someone posted a link to an online version of the Shulchan Aruch, 
but I've lost it.  Could someone send me that url again?]

It occured to me as I was learning this that this would allow one to make 
coffee with a cone filter as long as you put the ground coffee into the 
filter before shabbos.

The goal is the same: you want to get some of the flavor out of the 
dregs/coffee.  You pour in clear hot water, and get out the coffee.

An obvious concern is bishul.  Coffee beans are roasted, but yesh bishul 
acher tzli.  Therefore, you have to use a kli sheni.

Another possible concern is that I believe the water that you pour into 
the filter has to be such that at least some people would drink it. Since 
we're talking about hot water here, some could raise the question of 
whether that applies.  But, there are people who drink plain hot water, 
no?

So, this means that you could have fresh coffee on Shabbos!  I'm posting 
here because I can't imagine no one else has ever thought of this.  But, 
I've never heard of anyone doing it.  Is there a reason why not?

Thanks,

Steve


PS - I am learning these halachot through Shema Yisroel/Pirchei Shoshanim. 
I mention this for two reasons.  THe main one is that I already emailed 
Rav David Ostroff, who writes the shiurim on Shabbos for Shema Yisorel. 
He confirms that my logic seems sound.  By no means do I question his 
qualifications to decide that, but I am nervous that I somehow framed the 
question incompletely to him.  The fact that I've never heard anyone do 
this before makes be very nervous to try it.

I also want to mention in passing a word about Shema Yisroel, which has 
been mentioned with some disdain on A/A various times.  I am NOT pursuing 
semicha through them.  If I was going to try and get semicha, I would 
certainly NOT want to do it online (and if there are any generous 
benefactors out there who would like to support my family and me for 5 or 
6 years, I could consider it).

However, although I agree that it is inappropriate to get semicha online, 
I want to say that this program has been very helpful for someone like me 
who lives somewhere with limited learning opportunities, and 
who came to Torah later in life -- after career and family were well 
established.  I can't drop everything and go learn (unless that benefactor 
steps fowrard!).  Having this resource -- along with other things like 
Partners in Torah, which is also part of this process -- has been crucial 
to my being able to live a Torah lifestyle.

OK enough of this non-Avodike stuff.  I'm eager to hear your thoughts on 
my coffee questions.  Offers for support should go to private email. 
Comments on Shema Yisroel.com should go to Areivim.

Steve

***************************************************************************
Steven J. Scher              sjsc...@eiu.edu         Listen to WEFT 90.1FM
Department of Psychology     217-581-7269            www.weft.org
Eastern Illinois University
Charleston, IL 61920         I would discuss the holy books with the learned
USA                          men seven hours every day.  That would be the
                              sweetest thing of all...

Steven J Scher wrote:
> It occured to me as I was learning this that this would allow one to 
> make coffee with a cone filter as long as you put the ground coffee into 
> the filter before shabbos.
> [...]
> An obvious concern is bishul.  Coffee beans are roasted, but yesh bishul 
> acher tzli.  Therefore, you have to use a kli sheni.
> [...]
> So, this means that you could have fresh coffee on Shabbos!  I'm posting 
> here because I can't imagine no one else has ever thought of this.  But, 
> I've never heard of anyone doing it.  Is there a reason why not?

Perhaps the problem is not in halacha but in the metzius.  Is it possible
for the water from irui of a keli sheni to be hot enough to make coffee
in this way, that will be better than instant?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

The Aruch Hashulchan gives the analogous case with tea (leaves) and is
vehemently against it, as tea is considered kalei habishul.  I don't see
reason to think coffee is any different.

Gershon (coffee addict)Dubin
gershon.du...@juno.com

-- Steven J Scher <sjsc...@eiu.edu> wrote:


OC 319:9 reads:

It is forbidden to put dregs inside a strainer even when the strainer was
hanging before Shabbos, but if the dregs were put inside before Shabbos it 
is permitted to pour water over them until the water becomes clear.

[This is based on Shabbos 139b].

[BTW: Someone posted a link to an online version of the Shulchan Aruch, 
but I've lost it.  Could someone send me that url again?]

It occured to me as I was learning this that this would allow one to make 
coffee with a cone filter as long as you put the ground coffee into the 
filter before shabbos.

The goal is the same: you want to get some of the flavor out of the 
dregs/coffee.  You pour in clear hot water, and get out the coffee.

An obvious concern is bishul.  Coffee beans are roasted, but yesh bishul 
acher tzli.  Therefore, you have to use a kli sheni.

Another possible concern is that I believe the water that you pour into 
the filter has to be such that at least some people would drink it. Since 
we're talking about hot water here, some could raise the question of 
whether that applies.  But, there are people who drink plain hot water, 
no?

So, this means that you could have fresh coffee on Shabbos!  I'm posting 
here because I can't imagine no one else has ever thought of this.  But, 
I've never heard of anyone doing it.  Is there a reason why not?

Thanks,

Steve


PS - I am learning these halachot through Shema Yisroel/Pirchei Shoshanim. 
I mention this for two reasons.  THe main one is that I already emailed 
Rav David Ostroff, who writes the shiurim on Shabbos for Shema Yisorel. 
He confirms that my logic seems sound.  By no means do I question his 
qualifications to decide that, but I am nervous that I somehow framed the 
question incompletely to him.  The fact that I've never heard anyone do 
this before makes be very nervous to try it.

I also want to mention in passing a word about Shema Yisroel, which has 
been mentioned with some disdain on A/A various times.  I am NOT pursuing 
semicha through them.  If I was going to try and get semicha, I would 
certainly NOT want to do it online (and if there are any generous 
benefactors out there who would like to support my family and me for 5 or 
6 years, I could consider it).

However, although I agree that it is inappropriate to get semicha online, 
I want to say that this program has been very helpful for someone like me 
who lives somewhere with limited learning opportunities, and 
who came to Torah later in life -- after career and family were well 
established.  I can't drop everything and go learn (unless that benefactor 
steps fowrard!).  Having this resource -- along with other things like 
Partners in Torah, which is also part of this process -- has been crucial 
to my being able to live a Torah lifestyle.

OK enough of this non-Avodike stuff.  I'm eager to hear your thoughts on 
my coffee questions.  Offers for support should go to private email. 
Comments on Shema Yisroel.com should go to Areivim.

Steve

***************************************************************************
Steven J. Scher              sjsc...@eiu.edu         Listen to WEFT 90.1FM
Department of Psychology     217-581-7269            www.weft.org
Eastern Illinois University
Charleston, IL 61920         I would discuss the holy books with the learned
USA                          men seven hours every day.  That would be the
                              sweetest thing of all...

_______________________________________________
Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


____________________________________________________________
Earn your associate's criminal justice degree and start your career training today.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2141/fc/
PnY6rw2jutFa1hvFQvDfDafylwgwCdtGFnP5sccHRaCYIdLWpaPEW/

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 07:27:25PM +0000, Gershon Dubin wrote:
:> An obvious concern is bishul.  Coffee beans are roasted, but yesh bishul 
:> acher tzli.  Therefore, you have to use a kli sheni.

: The Aruch Hashulchan gives the analogous case with tea (leaves)
: and is vehemently against it, as tea is considered kalei habishul.
: I don't see reason to think coffee is any different.

Two differences:

1- Black tea is steamed in order to be oxidized, so there could be
MORE reason to be meiqil for tea; it's arguably bishul achar bishul,
not achar tzeli. However, that was the opposite of what's asked.

2- Another difference is AhS vs RMF. According to RMF (IM OC 4:74
"bishul" #18), tea is not qalei habishul, quite the reverse -- it's
a spice.

BTW, FWIW, tea afficianados agree that what happens to a tea leaves
isn't cooking. The AhS says that bishul is obvious, however, what you
see happening is what happens in cold water too -- given more time.
Maybe the haste qualifies it as bishul. But there are certainly grounds
(sorry for the pun) to say that RMF's position is born out by the
metzi'us, despite the AhS.

But I don't know what RMF would consider coffee grounds -- would he also
argue that they are not qalei habishul?

RSZA (according to SSK I, fn 152) holds that tea leaves are like
mishnah-era spices, before they invented techniques for fine grinding
that typify our spices. Therefore, he says that our spices are QhB, but
tea isn't. Again, this is RSZA not RMF, but which side of the line are
coffee grinds on?


Also, to get around the boreir problem.... Instead of using a regular
filter, use a french press. They push the grounds down to the bottom,
allowing you to pour okhel mitokh pesoles.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
mi...@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rabbi Israel Salanter

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 01:06:40PM -0500, R Davidovich wrote:
: I think people misunderstand other people's misunderstanding of RSRH's Torah
: Im Derech Eretz (TIDE) model.
: Proponents of TIDE think the chareidi perception is that RSRH only intended
: it as a Horaas Shaah.
: I think the Israeli and Lakewood Chareidi perception is that TIDE WAS a
: horaas shaah, suited to German Jewry's needs, regardless of how RSRH viewed
: it.

This latter position, however, is not what RBBL wrote RSS. As per above.

That said, there are two ways one could view hora'as sha'ah:
1- One could see it as a suboptimal solution necessary for survival;
now isn't the time to stand on every ideal or none will survive. Eis
la'asos Lashem.

Or:
2- One could see it as the best possible solution, an expression of the
Torah's ideal, given a suboptimal reality.

RARRakeffet suggested that there is no indication that RYBS meant MO as
the ideal, or as the ideal for this imperfect reality. His perception
was that RYBS would have been happier in a world where Brisk never
fell, but given that we're forced to confront modernity, we must do so
wholeheartedly and by growing through that dialectical tension. We argued
this before, with sources brought to show that RYBS did think MO was the
ideal the Torah described. Still RARR had a relationship with RYBS that
spenned decades, and I won't assume he was wrong without even asking
him about those same meqoros. (Of course, I could have misunderstood
the shiur, too.)

In any case, whether or not it's possible that's what RYBS meant, is
it (Torah-and as the best solution for an imperfect present reality)
not worth consideration as a biable derekh altogether? RYHaber (CC-ed)
was recently interviewed by Horizon Magazine. See the copy on his blog
at <http://www.torahlab.org/haberblog/klal_yisrael_at_risk/>. It opens:

> Horizons: I just recently came across another warning against the dangers
> of the internet to the spiritual wellbeing of our children. Maybe we
> can begin our discussion by asking how much is the internet to blame for
> "kids at risk"? Or is that merely scapegoating?

> Rabbi Haber: The internet has proven to be capable of a great amount of
> damage to Jews of all ages. However, it is important to remember that
> the internet is a reality. There will come a time in the not-so-distant
> future when it will be impossible to pay a bill, bank, make a phone
> call or even turn on a light in your house without using the Internet.
> Instead of forbidding the Internet and non-kosher cell phones, it would
> seem to be more prudent to teach students how to interact with the
> Internet responsibly. If we were to forbid everything that we can use
> the wrong way we must include cars, mp3 players, and for that matter
> -- women! We have to be very careful with internet technology -- but
> forbidding it is not the answer in the long term.

> When a teenager leaves us for a more exciting lifestyle, we have to
> ask ourselves why they are not finding that excitement in our homes and
> communities. In his remarkable sefer, Tzav V'Ziruz, the Piacezner Rebbe
> teaches an important lesson in education: Nature abhors a vacuum. The
> sustenance of the neshama is regesh (emotion). The neshama wants to be
> filled with a regesh of kedushah. If it doesn't find kedusha, it will
> search for any form of regesh, even violent or disgusting regesh. We
> have to fill our children's neshamos with healthy Torah regesh. Then
> the urge to look elsewhere will disappear.

Notice this isn't a blind statement about the wonderful value of
modernity. It's about accepting the fact that confrontation is inevitable,
and therefore we must develop a derekh that shows our youth how to win
that battle.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

PS: Please do not conclude from the above that this is my own approach
to modernity.

-- 
Micha Berger                 Life is complex.
mi...@aishdas.org                Decisions are complex.
http://www.aishdas.org               The Torah is complex.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                                - R' Binyamin Hecht

(This is the post I thought I already completed when I recently referred
the chevrah to an earlier post about RBBL's position on what RSRH must
have meant, as opposed to his giving it as his own opinion of TIDE.)

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 08:52:41PM -0500, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: R' MB:
: Clearly RBBL didn't know German, and little of RSRH's writings were
: available in Hebrew.
...
: daresay that both RSRH and RBBL were well qualified in that regard,
: and their disagreement (if, indeed, RSRH did not mean TIDE as HS)
: is a manifestation of Shivim Panim, rather than, CV, RBBL's implied
: ignorance/carelessness.

I would have fully agreed had RBBL written that he could only support
TIDE as a HS. However, he assigned this position to RSRH. And /that/ I
can only conclude was because RBBL had to rely on second-hand sources.

It is impossible to read much RSRH and still conclude that he intended
to make a hora'as sha'ah. E.g. Collected Writings VI 392-3:

    Ever since we have begun to make our modest contribution to the
    Jewish cause by speech, pen and deed, it was and is our wholehearted
    endeavor to present and advocate the most intimate union between
    Judaism -- total, unadulterated Judaism -- and the spirit of all
    true science and knowledge... we maintain that our whole future,
    with all ideo- logical and social problems the solution of which
    is eagerly awaited by mankind, belongs to Judaism, full, unabridged
    Juda- ism... because we can view the welfare and future of Judaism
    only in the framework of the most intimate union with the spirit
    of true science and knowledge of every age, we are the most out-
    spoken foes of all false science and knowledge, foes of every at-
    tempt, in the guise of science, to lay the ax to the roots of our
    Jewish Sanctuary... for if there were no alternative and we had only
    the choice between Judaism and Science, then there simply would be no
    choice and every Jew would unhesitatingly make his decision... rather
    to be, a Jew without science than Science without Judaism. But,
    thank God, this is not the case...

The entire idiom of Israel-Mensch.

The 16th Letter of 19 Letters, "Emancipation".

His commentary on "Yaft E-lokim leYefes".

To R' Hirsch, TIDE is what living the Torah is supposed to be, and the
alternatives only emerged when ghettoization left us no opportunity to
be full Jews.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The purely righteous do not complain about evil,
mi...@aishdas.org        but add justice, don't complain about heresy,
http://www.aishdas.org   but add faith, don't complain about ignorance,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but add wisdom.     - R AY Kook, Arpilei Tohar

RTK

>>
It was already established back from the time of Rivkah ("Nish'alah es
pi hana'arah") that Jews do not marry off a daughter or a sister
without her consent.
>>
RSM

>>It is a common misconception that the cited phrase indicates that
Rivkah's consent was necessary for the proposed marriage. As is clear
from the Biblical text, the cited phrase relates to something else:
the proposal that Rivkah leave her father's house immediately <<


>>>>>

RTK
>>
Well if it is a common misconception, it is one shared by Rashi, so I'm in
good company.  Ber. 24:57 on the words, -- Rashi there says, "Mikan she'ein
masi'in es ha'isha elah mida'atah."
>>

This point is well taken. OTOH, my comment is accurate on the simple pshat
level of the Biblical narrative. Chazal in the midrash Rashi quotes
(Bereshit Rabbah 60) *extend * Rivka's consent, as recorded in the Torah,
 to a previous matter. As RJWaxman pointed out, the midrash there
specifically relates to Rivka's status as an orphan, based on the midrash
that B'tuel died upon Eliezer's arrival. I do not know why Rashi writes
"isha" in place of the "y'toma"
in the midrash which is apparently his source.

In any event, this matter nicely illustrates the point mentioned by
RETurkel, that there is a tendency to relate to comments by Rashi as if they
were written explicitly in the Torah.

If one believes that the words "Nish'ala es pi hana'arah" in the literal
words of the Torah refer to the proposed marriage, he is laboring under a
misconception. If he maintains that chazal midrashicly apply them to the
proposed marriage, he is completely correct.

Saul Mashbaum.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081217/0cfa9781/attachment-0001.htm>

In my posting on the BethEl vs. Beth-El question and the 
kodesh/chol question, I should have mentioned the source. It 
is R' Wolf Heidenheim's chumash with Ein Hakorei (1817).



David

Based on OC 319:4, I suggested that one could make coffee on shabbos with 
a cone filter -- as long as you use a kli sheini, and as long as you  have 
placed the coffee in the filter before shabbos.

R'Gershon Dubin replied:

> The Aruch Hashulchan gives the analogous case with tea (leaves) and is
vehemently against it, as tea is considered kalei habishul.  I don't
see reason to think coffee is any different.
>
> Gershon (coffee addict)Dubin
> gershon.du...@juno.com


  I don't think you can learn about coffee from tea:

1) if i understand correctly, tea is not cooked already, and coffee is
(albiet tzli, not bishul, so perhaps that doesn't matter, but...).

2) tea is a problem because it is kalei habishul, but that doesn't
necessarily mean coffee is.  tea is soft, a leaf.  coffee is hard. 
according the the biur halacha on 318:4

kulias haispnin: lav davka aylu, d'hu hadin lcol cayotzei bazeh davar dak
v'rak cyosair. (rambam perek 9).

coffee beans are neither thin nor soft.

3) finally, its a maloches whether you can make tea in a kli shlishi.  so, 
even if coffee was kalei habishul, shouldn't that mean it would be ok, 
except you'd have to use a kli shelishi, not sheini....
although of course, for those who won't
make tea even in a kli shelishi, that wouldn't solve the problem.


- steve

R' Steve Scher:
> Another possible concern is that I believe the water that you pour into
> the filter has to be such that at least some people would drink it. Since
> we're talking about hot water here, some could raise the question of
> whether that applies.  But, there are people who drink plain hot water,
> no?

Yes. 

KT,
MYG

On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 3:04 PM, Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

> On Tue, Dec 16, 2008 at 12:41:19AM -0500, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> : AIUI, Rav Schwab shifted, too. Originally he thought it was a hora'as
> sho'oh
> : but later accepted TIDE as a lechatchila.
>
> Original R' Schwab thought it was lechat-chilah. Then he asked R' Barukh
> Ber if he should learn full time, or follow mussar avikha and TIDE. RBBL
> was the one who convinced him that TIDE was a hora'as sha'ah. (RBBL's
> argument is found in Birkas Shemu'el.)
>
> Clearly RBBL didn't know German, and little of RSRH's writings were
> available in Hebrew.
>

But Rav Schwab did know German, and was very familiar with RSRH's writings,
and was apparently convinced by RBBL's arguments.

KT,
Michael
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081217/daa0c8cc/attachment-0001.htm>

On Wed, 17 Dec 2008 15:45:24 -0500
Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org> wrote:

[quoting R. Haber]

> > Internet responsibly. If we were to forbid everything that we can use
> > the wrong way we must include cars, mp3 players, and for that matter
> > -- women! We have to be very careful with internet technology -- but

And men.

> Micha Berger                 Life is complex.

Yitzhak
--
Bein Din Ledin - http://bdl.freehostia.com
A discussion of Hoshen Mishpat, Even Ha'Ezer and other matters

The enquiry: I wonder how we determine what is appropriate sensitivity
LifNim MiShuRas HaDin and what is just bizarre behaviour?

 

Was answered : In a word Mesora; the mimetic tradition.

 

Which requires some elaboration, like whose Mesora? How far back? Does
Mesora ever change? How have certain changes been accepted and others
rejected? Is tat also part of the Mesora?

Reb Moshe responded re wearing modern American clothing that were a
variation from the traditions.

 

Meir Rabi

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20081218/77b6bef8/attachment-0001.htm>

was the menorah arms straight or rounded?
see

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1047597.html

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:57:16AM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: was the menorah arms straight or rounded?
: see
: http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1047597.html

We discussed this here before (Chanukah 2003). RSM pushed for "rounded"
in <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol12/v12n065.shtml#12>. "A L in
London" replied in <http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol14/v14n077.shtml#17>.

IMHO, I think reading both (thery basically agree, the L posted
anonymously because his opinion is not popular in L circles) is far more
informative than Haaretz's summary of R' Ariel's argument.

From a pragmatic perspective, 24kt gold can't be made into a straight-line
menorah or even if the arms were semi-circular, they would bend. That's
not to say this is a drop-down proof; the menorah was made miraculously
(the first one, at least), perhaps they stayed made miraculously
as well. But without miracles, the arms would have had to have been
parabolic or something similar. LiL described the diagrams in early
editions of Rashi as having elliptical arms.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             It isn't what you have, or who you are, or where
mi...@aishdas.org        you are,  or what you are doing,  that makes you
http://www.aishdas.org   happy or unhappy. It's what you think about.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                        - Dale Carnegie

On Wed, Dec 17, 2008 at 08:01:18PM -0500, Michael Kopinsky wrote:
:> Original R' Schwab thought it was lechat-chilah. Then he asked R' Barukh
:> Ber if he should learn full time, or follow mussar avikha and TIDE. RBBL
:> was the one who convinced him that TIDE was a hora'as sha'ah. (RBBL's
:> argument is found in Birkas Shemu'el.)

To add to my history, RSS started out a TIDE-ian, and ended up a
TIDEian, we're only discussing a period in between, when he was a youth
learning in Telzh.

: > Clearly RBBL didn't know German, and little of RSRH's writings were
: > available in Hebrew.
: 
: But Rav Schwab did know German, and was very familiar with RSRH's writings,
: and was apparently convinced by RBBL's arguments.

RSS wrote four gedolim, and all we know is that he was convinced for a
time that TIDE was a hora'as sha'ah. Not that RSRH thought so. Also, he
was a Hirschian-raised boy who was already pausing to ask the question
-- from 4 LITHUANIAN gedolim. I think it's fair to wonder whether as a
teen, the future rav was looking at the answers objectively, or looking
for someone to tell him it's okay to learn full time as he already wanted.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             The waste of time is the most extravagant
mi...@aishdas.org        of all expense.
http://www.aishdas.org                           -Theophrastus
Fax: (270) 514-1507

Just read an article that dreidel (sivivon) is based on an English
game T-totem that
went to Germany and was played mainly around Xmas.

Any poskim outlaw dreidel based on chukat hagoyim?
sounds much worse than Thanksgiving

-- ``
Eli Turkel


------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avo...@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 425
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."