Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 414

Wed, 10 Dec 2008

• 1. Re: Rav Shteinman and Niagra Falls (Joshua Meisner)
• 2. travel for nature (Eli Turkel)
• 3. Re: insects in our food (Micha Berger)
• 4. insects in our food (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Re: insects in our food (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: insects in our food (Micha Berger)
• 7. Re: insects in our food (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: insects in our food (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Rav Shteinman and Niagra Falls (Gershon Dubin)
• 10. Re: R. Steinman and Niagra Falls (JoshH...@aol.com)
• 11. Re: [Areivim] Seeing the Swiss Alps (T6...@aol.com)

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 11:54 AM, <efpa...@aol.com> wrote:

> Topical to the conversation here about Rav Hirsch, ztl, and the Swiss Alps,
> within the past year or so, the Jewish Observer had an article about a
> recent trip Rav Shteinman, shlita, made to various U.S. cities.  As his
> plane was flying over Niagra Falls, his travelling companions were looking
> out the window, and marveling at this great natural wonder.  They urged him
> to look out the window also.  Rav Shteinman was learning gemara, and he
> said, No.  They later asked him, Why?  He responded that it was a sheilah as
> to whether he could make a bracha on seeing Niagra Falls, and therefore, a
> sheila as to whether he could interrupt his gemara learning.
>
> Two different hashkafas.
>

Wouldn't R' Shteinman's actions be consonant with the ruling in Avos 3:9
regarding not interrupting one's learning to comment on natural beauty?
Granted, if my simple reading of the mishnah is correct, I'm not sure why
the ability to make a bracha would change things.

Joshua Meisner
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<<As RSRH did not live in EY, we don't know whether he would have said
that had he lived here.  I have never heard an EY gadol encourage
people to leave EY in order to see the wonders of nature. >>

not quite the same but R. Wosner allows visiting Eilat (according to many
it is outsude EY) if the purpose is to see the wonders of Hashem (ie
the beautiful nature)

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:21:50PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
:> In the days before insecticide, there were more larger bugs, keeping
:> the nearly (but not quite) invisible ones' population down.

: How do you know there were not both large and small insects?

Of course there were. But with some of those large insects around eating
the small insects, they could well have had *fewer* small (visible only
if you bother looking for them) insects than we do. Today's pesticides,
being well focused, aim at the preditors and don't get the smaller prey,
leading to a population boom for the small bugs.

Which would be sufficient to remove the assumption that the case for
which earlier rabbanim ruled is the same as our reality.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

<<In the days before insecticide, there were more larger bugs, keeping
the nearly (but not quite) invisible ones' population down.>>

How do you know there were not both large and small insects?

-- 
Eli Turkel

<<But with some of those large insects around eating
the small insects, they could well have had *fewer* small (visible only
if you bother looking for them) insects than we do.>>

maybe yes and maybe no. It sounds like speculation to me

-- 
Eli Turkel

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 10:34:03PM +0200, Eli Turkel wrote:
: maybe yes and maybe no. It sounds like speculation to me

True, but speculation combined with the evidence of our eyes that
there are bugs found (at least in some countries on some vegetables,
in non-negligable numbers) is enough to break the assumption that the
pesaq of earlier generations necessarily applies to our vegetables today.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

Zev Sero wrote:
> Eli Turkel wrote:
>> <<But with some of those large insects around eating
>> the small insects, they could well have had *fewer* small (visible only
>> if you bother looking for them) insects than we do.>>
>>
>> maybe yes and maybe no. It sounds like speculation to me
> 
> Put it this way: the big bugs had to be eating *something*.  If they
> didn't starve to death, then the population of smaller bugs *must*
> have been smaller than it would otherwise be.

PS: I'm obviously talking about bugs that are not vegetarian.  But
there are species of large bugs, known not to be vegetarian, that used
to exist on vegetables, but that are no longer to be found there because
of selective pest-control methods.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Wed, Dec 10, 2008 at 04:02:56PM -0500, Zev Sero wrote:
: Put it this way: the big bugs had to be eating *something*.  If they
: didn't starve to death, then the population of smaller bugs *must*
: have been smaller than it would otherwise be.

: PS: I'm obviously talking about bugs that are not vegetarian...

The speculative aspect is that the pesticides can't be so narrowly focused
that /none/ of the littler bugs are killed. They must be biologically
similar enough for some effect on them too, at least with some/most
pesticides. Which effect is greater -- the better survival because of
a lack of preditors, or the deaths due to pesticides (even though they
aren't the target of those pesticides.

I was just interested in breaking the assumption that what we see today
was what our ancestors considered ignorable levels. Without the
assumption, there is room for a new pesaq.

A lack of certainty is sufficient to make my point.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
mi...@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fullfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

<<As his plane was flying over Niagra Falls, his travelling
companions were looking out the window, and marveling at this great natural
wonder.  They urged him to look out the window also.  Rav Shteinman was
learning gemara, and he said, No.

They later asked him, Why?  He responded that it was a sheilah as to
whether he could make a bracha on seeing Niagra Falls, and therefore, a
sheila as to whether he could interrupt his gemara learning.>>

Lav davka a difference in hashkafa as you posit.  

If there's no beracha, then it's haposek mimishnaso ve'omer kama na'eh ilan zeh harei zeh mischayev benafsho (Avos 3:7).

If there is, there is a case to be made for a mitzva overes.

Gershon
gershon.du...@juno.com



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In a message dated 12/10/2008 3:12:36 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,  
avodah-requ...@lists.aishdas.org writes:

They  urged him to look out the window also.? Rav Shteinman was learning 
gemara, and  he said, No. They later asked him, Why?? He responded that it was a 
sheilah as  to whether he could make a bracha on seeing Niagra Falls, and 
therefore, a  sheila as to whether he could interrupt his gemara  learning.




When I learned in the high school of Telshe in Cleveland many years ago,  our 
rebbe told us a story about his rebbe, one of the Telzer Rosh  HaYeshivas ( I 
think it was R.E.M. Bloch zt'l, but it may have been R. M,  Katz zt'l). The 
RY was going on a bus trip to another city,and he asked his  talmid to get him 
a small gemara to take along so he could learn on the trip.  His talmid asked 
why doesn't he just take it easy and look out the window? He  answered that he 
was too lazy. Our rebbe didn't explain what that meant, but I  assume it 
meant that it had become  so natural for him to learn that  it took a lot of  
effort for him  not to  learn.
**************Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and 
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Subject: Re: [Areivim] Seeing the Swiss Alps


On Areivim, R' Yitzchak Levine posted something about Hirsch urging his  
students to see the Alps -- his famous line, HKB'H will ask you, "Have you seen  
My Alps?"
 
And then there were a series of responses, the flavor of which you can see  
here:
 
From: R' Moshe Feldman..
>> I have never heard an EY gadol  encourage
people to leave EY in order to see the wonders of nature.  <<


From: "SBA" <s...@sba2.com>
From R' SBA:   >> Has anyone heard of ANY gadol besides RSRH encourage seeing 
the wonders  of
nature?

BTW, last year we visited the South Island of New Zealand.  
IMHO, if it was located in Europe, it would strongly challenge the Alps  for
its scenery and beauty. <<

----
From: "Danny Schoemann" _doniels@gmail.com_ (mailto:doni...@gmail.com) 

>> I believe  that the Swiss Alps simply have better PR than the Israeli  
hilltops.


....The local scenery is Hashem's showcase since its His  palace, though in
places it's desolate due to the Churban... but we have no  PR.

Do you really think Hashem prefers you to boost the Swiss  economy
rather than admire His own country?

- Danny, surrounded by the  magnificent Judea hilltops


>>>>>>>
[So here now is my response, which I have decided belongs on Avodah rather  
than Areivim]
 
People, people, people!
 
1. First of all, everybody here is taking Hirsch's remark about the  *Swiss 
Alps* WAY too literally.  Do you really think he meant that if you  live in the 
US and have an opportunity to see the Rockies, or that if you live  in Peru 
and can look at the Andes, or that if you have a chance to visit New  Zealand 
and see the beautiful scenery there, or that if you have a chance to see  the 
Himalayas -- that you should forsake all these mountains and DAVKA go  to 
Switzerland?!  
 
And kal vechomer do you think that if a person is living in Yerushalayim,  
surrounded by the Harei Yehuda, that Hirsch would have told him to go visit  
Switzerland?!  I am tearing my hair out from sheer frustration.   POETRY, people, 
can you not understand?  Acccchhhh.  Did he really  true mean to say that 
Hashem will ask every person in the world, "Did you learn  Torah?  Did you deal 
honestly in business?  Did you see My  Alps?"  How can you think that?!
 
What he meant was so obvious.  If you live in a city -- and we Jews  are an 
urban people -- if you live surrounded by concrete and sidewalks and  paved 
roads -- get out of there once in your life at least!  Go look at the  
magnificent world that Hakadosh Baruch Hu created!
 
You people.  You would read Shakespeare's line, "A rose by any other  name 
would smell as sweet," and you would gravely say, "Hm, I wonder what he  meant 
by that?  What about a lily?  What about a tulip?  WHAT  ABOUT JULIETTE?  Why 
is he talking about a rose when Romeo is pining  for Juliette?"  You would fill 
pages of commentary about why Shakespeare  talked about a rose and not 
another flower, and what on earth could he have  meant by that?!
 
2. Second of all, did any other godol besides RSRH ever say anything  
similar?  Well, folks, I would like to draw your attention to Exhibit A --  the 
Tanach -- and a couple of gedolim you have probably heard of:   Yeshayahu Hanavi 
and Dovid Hamelech.
 
"Se'u marom eineichem ure'u mi varah eileh?"  (Yeshayahu 40:26)   (And please 
don't get nitpicky and say that the navi was talking about  Hashem's glorious 
stars and this could not possibly be applied to His glorious  mountains.)
 
"Yefeh nof mesos kol ha'aretz Har Tzion...."  (Tehillim 48:3)
"MiTzion michlal yofi Elokim hofea." (ibid 50:2)
"Yerushalayim harim saviv lah v'Hashem saviv le'amo...." (ibid 125:2)
 
3.  Hirsch did not get his love of beauty from secular  sources! When he 
looked at the Alps he was inspired and that inspiration  was religious, it was 
spiritual.  "Mah gadlu ma'asecha Hashem!" (ibid.  92:6)  Just look outside 
sometimes, look at the beautiful world and be  inspired!
 
4. I am one hundred percent positive that if you already lived in  
Yeryshalayim, Hirsch would not have told you that you have to go see the  Alps!  But he 
WOULD have said, Go see the mountains!  During bein  hazmanim, go on a tiyul!  
If Dovid Hamelech himself called Y-m a place of  perfect beauty, why would 
you need to see the Alps?!  Don't you think that  Hirsch himself yearned to see 
Yerushalayim and the Harei Yehuda?!
 
5.  A different post needs to be written about Pirkei Avos, and a  person who 
looks up from his Gemara to say, "Mah na'eh ilan zeh!"  That  could be a 
whole separate essay but, on regel achas, it does not mean that a  person should 
refrain from looking at beautiful sights or should refrain from  noticing that 
Hashem has created a magnificent world for us to  enjoy.   What it does mean 
-- well that is for the other regel, enough  for now.




--Toby Katz
=============
Read *Jewish World  Review* at _http://jewishworldreview.com/_ 
(http://jewishworldreview.com/) 



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