Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 356

Fri, 10 Oct 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:41:32 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Aftura

R' Jonathan Baker asked:

> What is "aftura"?
> SA OH 328:28 talks about lancing and bandaging a boil on
> Shabbos. MB sk 90 refers to a related procedure called "an
> aftura on the arm", which is ...
> This comes from the Magen Avraham.  M"A discusses the
> "aftura in the arm" as a ...

For these sort of questions, I find Volume Three of the Shmiras Shabbos
K'Hilchasa to be very helpful. Among its features is a reversed index of
his sources. In other words, you look up a source in Shulchan Aruch, and it
tells you where that source appears in the footnotes to the SSK. In this
way, you can probably figure out what an aftura is, but more importantly,
you can see how poskim applied that halacha to more modern situations.

Here is what that reverse index mentions about SA OH 328:28. All citations
of the format "aa:bb" refer to the chapter and footnote number in the SSK;
"Mavo" refers to the Introduction To Hilchos Shabbos which is in SSK Volume

Mechaber 28 - 2:18; 34:7; 35:26; Mavo 1:52
Magen Avraham 32 - 35:35
MB 88 - 30:47; 34:7,35; 35:35,41,101; 38:71
MB 89 - 35:28
MB 90 25:9; 35:26,36,37,38,51,79,84; Mavo 1:52
Shaar Hatziun 63 - 35:42
Shaar Hatziun 65 - 25:9; Mavo 1:52
Shaar Hatziun 67 - 35:29,79
Beur Halacha "Keday" - 20:18; 35:27

The MB you cited appears at least 9 times in the SSK. I hope this helps!

I also hope that I didn't make any typos. GCT!

Akiva Miller

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Message: 2
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:08:07 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Spicing your cholent on Shabbos

R' Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer asked:
> ... was asked if one can pour cold soup onto hot potatoes
> in a keli sheni, and he wrote that the Maharshal (Shach,
> YD 105:5) who paskens that a davar gush is in a mevashel
> in a keli sheni is not oisgehalten l'ma'aseh - and especially
> not b'makom Oneg Shabbos.

I presume that the soup you're mentioning is not an uncooked soup, but had been cooked previously, and is now cold.

If so, this sounds exactly like Rav Moshe Feinstein's teshuva about putting
ketchup on a piece of hot meat in a kli sheni (Igros Moshe O"C 4:74:5, or
Rav Eider on Shabbos vol 4, #18 of RMF's teshuvos in the back). He says
that both "davar gush is mevashel in a kli sheni" and "yesh bishul achar
bishul b'davar lach" are chumros, but while we DO normally avoid them, they
do not combine to forbid the situation under discussion.

Akiva Miller

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Message: 3
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:51:54 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Pas Palter

R' Harry Weiss asked:
> Is there any reason to believe that even in the time of
> Chazal there was not some sort of hasgacha to check that
> way of baking was kosher.  It may have been less formalized
> that today with no trademarded symbols, but there probably
> was some Yotzei VeNichnas type of checking.

It seems to me that the system you describe is EXACTLY how Chazal describe
Chalav Yisrael -- an informal hashgacha to check that the milk was kosher,
on at least a Yotzei veNichnas basis.

The halacha of Basar Shenis'alem Min Ha'ayin seems to do the same for butcher shops.

But I don't recall ever hearing such a thing about bakeries, where (like
today's whiskey, or pickle barrels of the last century) a general knowledge
of standard manufacturing procedures is generally considered sufficient.

Akiva Miller

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Message: 4
From: "Ira Tick" <itick1...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 12:05:57 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Lashes on E.Y.

In my experience:

The leather belt is tapped against the upper back of the recipient as

Three sets of thirteen lashes, starting and ending with a lash below the
left shoulder, with a lash between the shoulder blades and a lash below the
right shoulder in between.  For each set, one word of VeHu Rachum... is
recited for each lash.
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Message: 5
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:40:08 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Is the term ?He died before his time? correct?

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 02:30:05PM +0200, Daniel Eidensohn wrote:
: R' Avroham Yakov wrote:
: >>But is such a term hashkofically correct?  If Ha-Shem decides to take 
: >>someone, can that be ?before their time??

: Chagiga(4b): R. Joseph, when he came to the [following] verse, wept: But 
: there is that is swept away without judgment.27 [He said]:28 Is there 
: anyone who passes away before one's [allotted] time?29 ? Yes, as in the 
: story [heard] by R. Bibi b. Abaye,30 who was frequently visited by the 
: Angel of death. [Once] the latter said to his messenger: Go, bring me 
: Miriam, the women's hairdresser!31 He went and brought him Miriam, the 
: children's nurse. Said he to him:32 I told thee Miriam, the women's 
: hairdresser. He answered: If so, I will take her back....

BTW, I thought this story was a veiled reference to Christianity.
As in Mary Madgaddlela (Mary the hairdresser).

I don't have an answer to RAY's question, but I would suggest two
directions I would explore:

1- There are two kinds of appointed time -- zeman va'eis. As I wrote in
MmD (but the Aspaqlaria version at
<http://www.aishdas.org/asp/mikeitz64.shtml> is in HTML and therefore
easier to cut-n-paste):
> R' Aharon Kotler zt"l commented to a student on the occasion of the
> birth of the student's son about the phrase "The beris should be
> be'ito ubizmano", using both "eis" and "zeman" to denote its proper
> time. Similarly the famous words of Koheles, "Lakol zeman va'eis...
> everything has its zeman and its eis..." Rav Aharon explained the
> difference. If the baby is healthy, then the beris is at the
> pre-decided time, on the eight day. If not, then it will be at the
> right time for that individual baby. Ideally the beris would be at
> both.

> An eis is a time that comes according to a prescheduled appointment,
> ready or not. It is a point in a shanah, in cyclic time that runs its
> celestial heartbeat regardless of human action. A zeman is a landmark in
> the course of progression. And so, one is "kovei'ah itim baTorah", one
> sets aside times for Torah. In Ma'ariv, we describe Hashem as "Meshaneh
> itim uMachalif es hazemanim -- the One Who changes the itim and switches
> the zemanim." Note that for "itim", the change is described as a shinui,
> reflecting the word shanah.

> But neither an eis nor a zeman can represent the goal of the trip.
> Repetition without progress and progress without reflection as to its
> purpose do not get one to a meaningful goal. A qeitz, an endpoint, can
> only come from both.

Assuming you read the vertl and buy into my thesis, "lo veqitzo" would
be that the eis (allotted time) arrived but the person failed to reach
the proper zeman, time in the process of his life.


Micha Berger             A person must be very patient
mi...@aishdas.org        even with himself.
http://www.aishdas.org         - attributed to R' Nachman of Breslov
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:42:28 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Is the term he died before his time correct?

On Wed, Oct 08, 2008 at 09:43:16AM -0400, Cantor Wolberg wrote:
: It can all be reconciled with Tosfos' response that when the
: Gemara says that they are written and sealed for life or death,
: it doesn't mean in this world, but in the next world.

I never got this, since a person is judged upon petirah for olam haba.
What does having a fate sealed in olam haba between YK and death mean?

In general, if a person is assessed at all times ba'asher hu sham, what
is the judgment of Yamim Noraim, or the 3 other times we are judged?


Micha Berger             Man is equipped with such far-reaching vision,
mi...@aishdas.org        yet the smallest coin can obstruct his view.
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507

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Message: 7
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:47:04 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Double hey hayedi'ah

On Tue, Oct 07, 2008 at 05:05:01PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Micha Berger wrote:
:>On Mon, Oct 06, 2008 at 03:17:32PM +0000, Gershon Dubin wrote:
:>: Lishna deKra;  vehakohen hagadol me'echave.

: >However, that doesn't work without the prepositional phrase "mei'echav.
: >"The kohein who is greater than his brothers". Not "the Chief Kohein" as
: >noun adjective (w/ aforementioned caveats about adjectives).

: See Bamidbar 35:28 -- "ad mot hakohen hagadol".

You're right, I'm making a stupid mistake between noun-adjective, or
descriptive noun list, and semichut. Hakohein hagadol isn't intended to
mean "the priest of the Great One", so both "ha-" make sense.

Similarly "haMelekh haQadosh" can't be "the King of the holy One", but
we knew that already. The discussion of whether haQadosh is a 2nd noun,
like the words "my boss" in "I told John, my boss, ..." or an adjective,
or both because the distinction is false, still stands without my blunder.


Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 13:52:43 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Aftura

I thought an afura was a hole left open to drain. Kind of like draining
a boil, but left open in an infected wound still creating puss.


PS: I have a feeling I might have just made the taanis a little easier
for some readers.

Micha Berger             "I think, therefore I am." - Renne Descartes
mi...@aishdas.org        "I am thought about, therefore I am -
http://www.aishdas.org   my existence depends upon the thought of a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      Supreme Being Who thinks me." - R' SR Hirsch

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Message: 9
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:35:02 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Ben Shiv'ah vs. Ben Shemonah

Yehoshua Kahan wrote:

> Here's my idea:  Not a few women (I'd be helped here by statistics or 
> even clinical impressions) experience bleeding, though pregnant, after a 
> month of pregnancy.  May of those women do not lose their developing 
> fetuses and go one to have healthy, full-term babies.  [...]
> SHE and everyone else thinks, when the 
> full-term, shaggy, clawed baby emerges, that she has given birth to a 
> seven-month fetus.  In fact, the baby is a nine-monther.  But:  when a 
> baby would come out in the eighth month, it would be a true premie, 
> often lacking hair and finngernails, and non viable in the days 
> preceding modern medicine.

Makes sense.  And this wouldn't have to happen that often; even if it
was a rare wonder, halacha would have to deal with it.  Even when we go
back to the midrashim, it does explain Moshe Rabbenu.  But it doesn't
fit the case of the shevatim, who are supposed to have been born less
than 9 months apart (even assuming that Bilha's and Zilpa's pregnancies
were more or less simultaneous, and that Rachel conceived Yosef a few
months before Dinah was born, it's still difficult to pack them all in
to seven years, without shaving a few months off here and there).

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

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Message: 10
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 08 Oct 2008 13:38:17 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Numbers and Letters on Bottlecaps

Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer wrote:
> His 
> rationale (note 21) is that since he does not intend to erase the 
> letters, even though it is a pesik reisha, since he has no hana'ah from 
> the mechikah, and since this mocheik shelo al menas liktov is only assur 
> me'd'Rabbanan, it is permitted.

How does he pasken about eating biscuits with writing on them, or
opening books with writing on the edges of the pages?

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

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Message: 11
From: Gershon Seif <gershons...@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 11:16:40 -0700 (PDT)
Re: [Avodah] Avodah] Numbers and Letters on Bottlecaps

<<In Yalkut Yosef Hil. Shabbos vol. 2 p. 519 ROY paskens that if
letters are printed on a bottlecap so that when one opens the bottle one
rips the letters it is nevertheless permitted to open the cap on
Shabbos! ... His rationale (note 21) is that since he does not intend to
erase the letters, even though it is a pesik reisha, since he has no
hana'ah from the mechikah, and since this mocheik shelo al menas liktov is
only assur
me'd'Rabbanan, it is permitted.>>

- Would Ashkenazim be permitted to rely on that?
- Would the same svara apply to opening bags (as far as the issue of mocheik is concerned)?

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Message: 12
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:12:06 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Praying to angels

On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 4:32 PM, Richard Wolpoe <rabbirichwol...@gmail.com>wrote:

> On Thu, Sep 25, 2008 at 12:09 PM, Zev Sero <z...@sero.name> wrote:
>> The problem with this is that mal'achim are not supposed to have
>> bechira.  Indeed, the definition of shituf is the belief that the
>> powers above, such as the sun and moon or the mal'achim, have the
>> bechira not to convey Hashem's blessings to us, and therefore have
>> to be cajoled, or even bribed, in order to do so, just as is the
>> case with a king's ministers and servants.
>> Zev, ditto.
> Actaulyl we debated this. There are those who say taht mal'achim do NOT
> lack behira but lack a yetzer horo.

See the final paragraphs of Eliyahu Zuta.  This source states explicitly
that were Mal'achim left on this plane they would havea yetzer horo, too and
it is pretty clear that they do not lack behcira just a yetzer horo.

So they have zero desire to commit a sin. But they have the ability to
I think the story of savin Lot suggests this. the Mal'ach is told to destroy
all 5 cities but relents to Lot's request regarding Zo'ar.  That is because
one mal'ach was there to save Lot. So there was a conflict as to what to
do.  It does not apepar that HKBH was consulted, they simply chose to relent
to Lot. They could have refused and told Lot to keep on going or else.  Look
at the ultimatum given Mrs. Lot as an example.

Gmar Chasima Tova
Best Wishes for the New Year 5769
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 13
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 20:26:36 GMT
[Avodah] The Tochacha of Vayelech

I found the 5th and 6th aliyos of Vayelech to be rather unusual.

It seems to start much as the other Tochachas do, with dire warnings that
in the future Klal Yisrael will forsake Hashem and turn to other gods. As a
result, awful things will happen to us, and Hashem will be angry and will
hide Himself from us.

In other Tochachas, the subject eventually turns to telling us that the
cure for this situation is that we should return to Hashem. But I don't see
any of that here.

Instead, as different sort of remedy is told: We should write the Shira,
and teach it and learn it, and it will be a witness for us. And then, even
when we eat, and are sated, and got fat, the Shira will testify for us.

What's going on? Beside the original mitzvah to write the Shira in the
first part of Devarim 31:19, the Shira is mentioned another three times in
the following pesukim. Something significant is being talked about, and
somehow, I'm missing the point.

My guess is that - especially if the Shira refers to the whole Torah - then
perhaps it is telling us that learning Torah will bring us back to Hashem.
But somehow I think there's something more going on. And if the Shira is
Haazinu, then I'm totally lost.

Any ideas? Thanks!

Akiva Miller

Get help now! Click to find the right drug rehab solution for you.

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Message: 14
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Wed, 8 Oct 2008 16:43:58 -0400
[Avodah] The Teshuva for Hide and Seek

One use of the word "Teshuva" is answer or response. Hence, many  
responsas are written by rabbis to answer certain legalistic questions.
With that in mind, God dictated the "teshuvot" (Torah) to Moses which  
he wrote down. God gave the answer and we asked the questions.
Now on Yom Kippur, it is in reverse. God asks the questions and we  
give the "teshuvot" the answers. If we give the correct answer, then we
have done  our "teshuva."  May our "teshuvot" address all of God's  

I read an interesting metaphor for the game "Hide And Seek".  We play  
Hide and Seek with God. All year God hides from many of us but at this
most sacred season, if we "Seek" Him, He maybe found.
"Dirshu HaShem B'himatz'o k'ra'uhu bih'yoto karov"  Seek ye the Lord  
while He may be found; Call upon Him while He is near.  Isaiah 55:6


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