Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 352

Mon, 06 Oct 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:17:24 -0400
[Avodah] Additional Tefilos for Parnoso etc

In a message dated 10/3/2008, s...@sba2.com writes:
>> "Vechol Maaminim shehu oneh lochash". Any particular pshat  in  
>> this? <<

As Toby pointed out the connotation of a whisper leads me to the  
metaphor that He answers the prayers of the vulnerable -- the orphan  
and the widow, etc. -- those people
who don't have the strength to utter more than a whisper.


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Message: 2
From: T6...@aol.com
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:18:17 EDT
Re: [Avodah] Praying to angels

From: "Danny Schoemann" <
>>We do see cases of angels making mistakes. Some  examples:

- The Bnei Elohim were supposedly angles who seduced  humans

- The angels that went to destroy Sdom had to admit to Lot that  all
was not in their hands, after bragging they were in charge.

- In  Chagiga there's a story of the Angel of Death's gofer killing the
wrong  person - and it's made to sound like a non-rare  occurrence.<<

I've always understood this kind of stories in a  "dibra Torah beloshon bnei 
Adam" kind of way, that they are stories told as seen  from a human 
perspective with lessons that we humans are supposed to learn from  them.   On a more 
fundamental level, even the "mistakes" made by  angels are willed and decided by 
Hashem, like robots that are programmed to  occasionally "make mistakes" so 
that the humans who are interacting with them  will have some particular role 
to fill.  
An analogy to this would be the trees in Bereishis that were supposed to  be 
"etz pri oseh pri" -- the wood and bark was supposed to be edible fruit  but 
the trees "didn't listen" and instead produced inedible trunks.   Obviously the 
trees had no free will and both what they were "supposed" to do  and what 
they actually did do came straight from Hashem with no mediating  thoughts on the 
part of the trees.

--Toby  Katz

**************New MapQuest Local shows what's happening at your destination.  
Dining, Movies, Events, News & more. Try it out!      
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Message: 3
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:24:04 -0400
[Avodah] Shlosh esre midot

I recently saw a beautiful interpretation of the beginning, HaShem,  
The first HaShem is prior to committing a sin and the second HaShem is
after committing a sin. The midas chesed is so powerful that there is  
even prior to a sin. Now you might ask if you haven't committed a sin,  
then what
need is there for compassion?  The answer is that He knows we're going  
to sin,
so He therefore preempts it with giving a foundation of compassion  
even before.

I also saw an interesting teshuva -- that a rasha who has bitachon is  
actually looked
upon favorably by HaShem -- or at least his reesh'ut  is mitigated (a  
comforting thought
during the Asseret y'mei teshuva.

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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 17:38:27 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Pat palter

kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:

> Ditto. It's hard for me to imagine that in a society which was so much
> less afluent than ours, they had so many kitchen utensils that any
> random item was probably not used in the past day.

And yet "stam kelim einan benei yoman" is an undisputed din, at least
when applied to householders.  Pottery was cheap.

Ironically, a palter is *more* likely than a baal habayit to use all
of his kelim every day.  In the case of bread, though, it's probably
not even an issue, because bread just never had treife ingredients,
and what kelim that are used in making bread would also be used for
other things?  In addition, the oven would be undergoing constant libun,
so it probably wouldn't become treif.


>> why isn't factory bread which has neither of the issues
>> not "pat yisrael" much the same as milk per R' Moshe
>> (and why was R' moshe later say yeshivot should drink
>> chalav yisrael other than for "salute the flag" reasons.)

RMF gave the reason - because the mission of yeshivot is to teach
children to be mehader bemitzvot, and not to rely on every kula
that comes along.   RMF wrote from the beginning that a baal nefesh
should not rely on his heter, and he is reported to have put a shiur
on this hiddur of $100 a year.

> My impression has been that indeed, factory bread is mutar lechatchila,
> and that everyone agrees Pas Yisrael to be only a beyond-what's-required
> sort of chumra, in contrast to Chalav Hacompanies, which is a machlokes
> such that some poskim call it treif. Am I wrong?

But the same is true of all pat palter, even not in a factory setting.
Pat palter was explicitly permitted by the Sanhedrin, so there's no
opinion that it's assur.  But it's still a hiddur to avoid it if one
can.  This makes it unlike chalav akum, which is definitely assur,
and there's no heter for "chalav palter", so the only question is what
exactly counts as "chalav akum" for the purpose of this gezera.

Also note, apropos to the original question, that RMF (in the third,
long teshuva) points out that the entire gezera on chalav akum must
have been only in a case where we aren't really worried about treife
milk being more than 1/60 of the mixture, because if were worried
about that it would be assur as a safek de'oraita.  It's only when
we're *not* worried about that, that Chazal said nevertheless we
must not drink chalav akum.

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 17:44:16 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Praying to angels

Yitzhak Grossman wrote:

> The one beginning "shelosh esreh midos" [2], which
> contains the line you mention "na kol middah nechonah ahaleh pnei malki
> betehinah", does not face any opposition, AFAIK, since the grammar of
> all the stanzas makes it clear that we are not actually addressing the
> middos; they are all written in either the first person ('ahaleh',
> 'avakesh', 'eshanen'), or in the second person but addressed to God
> ("na kol middah nechonah deheh osam Hashem lehastirah"), meaning (as
> translated by Weingarten, who appears to be correct) that we are
> beseeching God by invoking His attributes, but not the middos
> themselves.

You are referring to the bowdlerised version of the piyyut.  The
original version addresses "kol midah nechonah" in the second person
feminine.  "Chali", "bakshi", "dechi", "vehit'chaneni Lo", etc.

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

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Message: 6
From: "Shmuel Zajac" <shmuel.za...@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 17:47:16 -0400
[Avodah] Pat palter

> And actually, this applies not only to pas palter/akum, but also to
> *bishul* akum. I've asked this before, but I'll repeat it now: If certain
> foods were prohibited by the legislation of bishul akum, those foods must
> have been mutar prior to that enactment. But how *could* they have been
> allowed? With absolutely zero Jewish involvement in the cooking, how
> confident could they be that a vegetable soup had only kosher ingredients?
> (I specify "vegetable", on the possibility that Basar Shenisalem Min Ha'ayin
> was already forbidden when Bishul Akum became forbidden.)

Well, it's the same affluence issue. In a society where most of the
population probably had meat once a week, why would anyone put meat, fish,
dairy or eggs into a plain soup if he didn't have to?

-- Kayza
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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Sun, 05 Oct 2008 18:08:12 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Praying to angels

Jonathan Baker wrote:

> #1 Do you have a Siddur of R' Shrira (I thought the other Geonic siddur
> was R' Saadia)?  I just went through the Seder R' Amram (1861, well,
> a 1950s reprint), and his idea of slichot is very different from ours.
> He has a sequence of 15 nights leading up to RH, and then slichot for
> the two days of RH, Shabbat Shuva, and YK.  
>   a) I didn't see the piyut "13 Middot" there, although it's in the 
> Chabad online Slichos, as well as the 19th-century Vilna Kol-Bo.
>   b) R' Amram doesn't have Machnisei Rachamim either.
> So I don't know, really, what "RAG and RSG intended."

I'm working from the LR's notes at the back of the Kehot edition of
Selichot.  On "Machnisei Rachamim", he writes: "Siddur RAG.  Similarly
also in a teshuvah of R Shrira Gaon (Zichron Larishonim ch 373).

A footnote (which AIUI is also from the LR) expands on this: "There's
a discussion on whether to say it in ShuT Yehuda Yaaleh (of RI Assad)
vol 1 ch 21.  ShuT Shemesh Tzedaka OC 23:24 gives arguments for both
sides.   Chatam Sofer OC 166.  Anafim La`Ikarim 2:28.  Moreh Nevuchim
3:3.  Shibolei Haleket.  Tanya Rabati by R Yechiel, hil' RH, brings
a proof from Sanhedrin (44a) on the pasuk "Will your riches keep you
from trouble" (Iyov 36:19).  See also the introduction to Siddur Otzar
Hatfilot ch 3.  In the Tzemach Tzedek's Shoresh Mitzvat Hatfilah ch 7
he quotes the Korban Netanel at the end of the first chapter of RH;
but in his notes to Torah Or d"h Ner Chanukah ch 3, which were written
after he wrote Shoresh Mitzvat Hatefilah, he concludes: 'the point is
that it doesn't mean we are ch"v asking them for anything, but to be
a shliach to bring the shefa` from above to below, and so also they
convey the tefilot up, as they said in the gemara and in Zohar Parshat

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

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Message: 8
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Sun, 5 Oct 2008 20:44:55 -0400
[Avodah] May God's Prayer Be Answered on Yom Kippur

"Whose sin is forgiven? The sin of one who forgives." (Megilla 28a).

According to the Gemara we see that even God struggles with this  
conflict of balance between justice and mercy.

The prayer God utters is the following: "May it be My will that My  
mercy should overcome My anger and that My mercy dominate My  
attributes. May I act with My children with the attribute of mercy,  
and go beyond the requirements of the law."

We earnestly hope and pray that God's prayer will be answered on Yom  

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Message: 9
From: Henry Topas <hto...@canpro.ca>
Date: Mon, 06 Oct 2008 02:24:52 -0400
[Avodah] Seforim Niftachim

In several exchanges in 2000, the chevreh discussed the notion of the
seforim niftachim referred to in our tfillot this time of year, RGD and RSBA
leave us with a great questions, yet no conclusion appears to have been


Date: Sat, 07 Oct 2000 13:31:09 +1000
From: SBA <s...@blaze.net.au>
Subject: seforim niftachim

> From: Gershon Dubin
>         We ask, in Avinu Malkenu,  to be written in many different
> seforim.  What is the source of all these or is it just an idiomatic
> expression?  The only seforim I am aware of are the shelosha seforim
> niftachim,  tzadikim, resha'im and beinonim.

Interesting question.
The only place I have seen this mentioned (till now) is the Siddur Otzar
Hat'filos in the peirsuh 'Achris Lesholom" via a Zohar - Ayin Shom,
and the Peirush Etz Yosef (even more intriguing) as he explains Sefer
Chaim is Bereishis, S. Geulah Veyshuah is Shmos, Parnoso V'Chalkolo is
Bamidbor, Zechuyos is Dvorim and Slicho u'Mechilo is Vayikro. A"S- and
a good pshat will be appreciated by all. (I mean, why are we asking to
be writtten into the Chamisho Chumeshei Torah??)


Question (perhaps repeated from then):  When we end with Besfer Chaim,
Brochah v'sholom, upharnossah tovah  why wouldn't the lashon open up to
include more bakashot? Is there no room for asking for personal bakashot
such as chilutz atzamot suggested by the lashon of birchat hachodesh or for
that matter, other bakashot made in the Katvaynu lines within the Avinu

GCT and an easy fast,
Cantor Henry Topas 

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