Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 333

Thu, 18 Sep 2008

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:14:17 +0300
[Avodah] rape

<<where do you see that 'the Ran's theory is innovative, and not
necessarily the consensus view'  >>

The Ran's view is very controversial because it implies the need of
a system beyond halacha. Why learn choshen mishpat or
meschet Sanhedrin if the king will set up his own laws.
This is precisely the reason many achronim object to dina
de-malchasa and seek to limit its application to taxes or other
direct needs of the government but not as a way of governing.

My personal experience is that many modern rabbis have a
dual attitude to the Ran. When asked all sorts of modern
questions they answer, based on the Ran, that we can get
around problems that Mordechai Cohen mentions. At the same
time they feel very uncomfortable about actually introducing any
new legislation

Eli Turkel

Go to top.

Message: 2
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:50:36 -0400
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 10:33:14PM +0000, kennethgmil...@juno.com wrote:
: Are you saying that if a 12 1/2 year old boy has sa'aros, then on a
: d'Oraisa level he is a safek gadol?

No, because sorfin al hachazaqos.

Rather than saying it's "on a deOraisa level", I would say it's more
like kelapai Shamaya galya he may be a gadol.

Tir'u baTov!

Go to top.

Message: 3
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.du...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 21:16:09 -0400
Re: [Avodah] burial

Not "seem to be";  ein malinin es hameis bYrushalayim.

On Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:05:36 +0300 "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
> This does not seem to apply to Jerusalem where funerals seem to
> be at night even when important people can't come. Of course
> there was no eglah arufah in Jerusalem
Experience the rustic luxury that comes with building a log home. Click now!

Go to top.

Message: 4
From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:33:15 -0700
[Avodah] prozbul

Rambam shemitta veyovel 9:16 says prozbul works only because
shemitta nowadays is derabban (note Raavad disagrees)

Tosafot and Rama also learn that Rava's answer (hefker bet din) does
not help cancel shemitta because a court would never cancel a Torah mitzvah

BTW on
you can make the bet din a shliach for the prozbul without any witnesses on
the internet transaction.
The standard prozbul done in the local towns do have 2 witnesses signing

Eli Turkel

Go to top.

Message: 5
From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 18:39:58 -0700
[Avodah] prozbul


for a discussion by RAL of the concepts behind prozbul

Eli Turkel

Go to top.

Message: 6
From: "Michael Kopinsky" <mkopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:08:05 -0400
Re: [Avodah] prozbol

On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 5:18 PM, Michael Kopinsky <mkopin...@gmail.com>wrote:

> The Chofetz Chaim lists Shemitas Kesafim in Sefer Hamitzvos Hakatzar as
> being applicable today, which seems to indicate that he holds it's d'oraysa
> bizman hazeh.

Next time, I should base my statements on what he says, not on the table of
contents.  He says explicitly in the text that it's only applicable d'oraysa
bizman shehayovel noheg.

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolb...@cox.net>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:05:35 -0400
[Avodah] Removing shoes at a kever

JM asked:  "What is the origin of the practice (which I've only seen  
done at the k'varos
of RMMS and RYYS) to remove one's shoes before visiting a kever?"

The onen does act like a mourner in certain ways, but does not remove  
his shoes.
These are removed after the burial ? sometimes at the grave itself  
(Rema YD 382:5.)

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod

Go to top.

Message: 8
From: menucha <m...@inter.net.il>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 07:27:08 +0300
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

I always wondered why that Mishna is seen as the "concept of Jewish 
womenhood"   and not taken at face value as "the mitzvot for which women 
die in childbirth". Cynically I could say that it "made it big" because 
of its place in the davening.
any sources for taking this mishna for more than it says?
BTW, see the parallel for men in Kohelet Rabba on "Eit Laledet."

Micha Berger wrote:

>The mishnah in Bameh Madliqin lists three mitzvos, which arguably
>implies that they hold a unique concept of Jewish womanhood. Of them,
>only hafrashas challah is appropriate, unless the party is Friday night
>and the girl bentches licht herself.

Go to top.

Message: 9
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 05:59:21 -0400
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 07:27:08AM +0300, menucha wrote:
: I always wondered why that Mishna is seen as the "concept of Jewish 
: womenhood"   and not taken at face value as "the mitzvot for which women 
: die in childbirth". Cynically I could say that it "made it big" because 
: of its place in the davening.

You are quite probably correct. However, was it intentional, or only a
side effect of it being in a pereq about hadlaqas haneiros?

My own feeling is that if these are the three mitvos whose violations
cause the judgment at a she'as saqanah to be negative, and not a more
general list of mitzvos, Chazal are trying to say something.

The conclusion is being made because (1) these three mitzvos are
differentiated from (say) withholding tzedaqah when someone asks, and
(2) this time of judgment is being differentiated from war or walking
in a churvah, or anything else men can experience as well.

Also, as I recently mentioned in another thread, I personally believe
that anything that comes in threes is probably trying to say something
fundamental about human nature.

: BTW, see the parallel for men in Kohelet Rabba on "Eit Laledet."

Could yoou spell it out for those of us without ready access to a
Qoheles Rabba?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
mi...@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

Go to top.

Message: 10
From: Akiva Blum <yda...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:50:11 +0300
Re: [Avodah] Question on parasha

 "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgl...@gmail.com>:
> From: R' Gershon Dubin
> The pasuk in this week's parasha tells us that one may not leave a body
> unburied overnight. However, last week's parasha ended with a body being
> left for as long as 4 weeks while the ziknei Beis Din are informed of the
> need for them to come and then they actually come to measure. How could
> this be?

Kiddush Hashem overrides Lo Salin - see Yerushalmi Kiddushin 4:1. 

Also Bavli, Yevomos 79a.


Go to top.

Message: 11
From: "Danny Schoemann" <doni...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 14:21:33 +0300
[Avodah] The most common Mitzva

The thread about Kaporos and L'Dovid remind me of something that I'm
been contemplating recently.

I start with the premise that everything we are required to do is a
Mitzva; and the Mitzva list is definded as the 613. (Yes, I know there
are various "lists")

For a while I was convinced that most Mitzvos we do are D'Rabonon,
fulfilling the Mitzva of K'chol Asher Yorucho.
- Washing before eating
- Negel Vaser
- Brochos
- Chanuka
- Purim
- Seder Tefilo
- Lulav on Chol Hamo'ed
- Fast days besides for YK
- All Mitzvos Zecher L'midash/Churban
- Krias Shma at Bedtime
- Kippa

Last night I learnt a random page of the 3rd chapter of Sha'arei
Tshuvo with my youngest son and it spoke about Yir'as Hashem which
consists of the S'yog; making fences- Mishmeres L'mishmarti.

Now I'm starting to wonder if many of our daily actions are a
fulfilment of L'Yir'o Es Hashem (hey! even the Torah says "Hashem" :-)
- another thread).

So why should I wear my Kippa?
- As a minhag? K'chol Asher Yorucho?
- As Yir'as Shomayim? <Yarmulke anybody?>

Why do I wash before eating?
- Because it's dRabonon? K'chol Asher Yorucho?
- Because it's a Syog that the Kohanum shouldn't touch Terumah w/o
washing hands? Mishmeres L'mishmarti?

People say L'Dovid and do Tashlich and Kaporos:
- As a reminder to do Tshuva?
- A "new" Drabonon?
- A memory jog/symbolism that took on a life of its own?

For that matter: Is Mishmeres L'mishmarti part of L'Yir'o Es Hashem?

Just wondering... what with Elul, the Tochocho this week and all, it
seems to be the season... so many important things are non-existent in
Halocho, so many Halochos seem to be non-existent in Yiddishkeit..
trying to get a handle on things...

Sort of like knowing what to study for the big test after 120; they
won't ask me what color my tablecloth was, they will ask me if I
awakened before dawn.

Wishing everybody a year full of "real" Mitzvos

- Danny

Go to top.

Message: 12
From: "Danny Schoemann" <doni...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 13:35:00 +0300
Re: [Avodah] HaShem as God's Name

: But today, it's so common to write H-shem or Hash-m and similar
: forms...

- My Yekkishe grandparents OB"M used to refer to Him as "Der Lieber
Gctt" in coversation, and Adoshem when appropriate, e.g. practising
tunes for davening. Leining was always prepared as it was to be said
in shul. (The Kitzur considers Adoshem to be a major distortion and an
unbecoming way to refer to His Name.)

- As a kid I was convinced that  a double Yud and the Alef-Lamed
ligature were Kodesh Kodoshim. Even saying Yud-Yud was supposedly
forbidden. This was probably caused by them being taught together as
"YY and YHVH have to be read as Hashem".

- Recently I have seen on the Omud and on the Paroches: Shivisi H'
L'negdi Thomid.
I understand why they would not want to write (embroider) YHVK but
what's the point of H' (as a lonely letter Hey)?
Whatever happened to the "Da Lifnei Mi Ato Omed"; realise in who's
presence you are, which has the same affect and is more elegant.

- Danny

Go to top.

Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:10:40 -0400
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

Thanks to Menuchah, I got to see the relevant qeta from the Qoheles
Rabba. Thanks to having more text to search with, I found a link I could
share: http://daat.ac.il/daat/toshba/kohelet/3-2.htm#2

(In general daat.ac.il is worth bookmarking; it has numerous primary
sources in full.)

It's interesting. For women, it lists three mitzvos whose zehirus is
assessed when they are in a common she'as saqanah - childbirth. And the
mal'akh hamaveh becomes her qeteigor. For men, it lists three she'os
saqanah in which we are judged: hanging out in delapidated structures,
traveling alone, and traversing the Mediterranean. And for men, it's
the satan who is described as becoming his qeteigor.

The original point, assuming that R' Shemuel bar Nachman singled out
these three aveiros as being the ones the mal'akh hamaves would focus
on because they are in some aspect more important than others, stands.

I'm not sure what to make of the contrast, but here's what came to mind

It's like women are in the normal course of things put in danger, and
therefore "close" to the mal'akh hamaves who then prosecutes them for
their actions.

Men are assumed we'll sin, hanging out with the satan, who will
therefore accuse us whenever we are dumb enough to do something

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
mi...@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

Go to top.

Message: 14
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 10:17:49 -0400
Re: [Avodah] HaShem as God's Name

On Thu, Sep 18, 2008 at 01:35:00PM +0300, Danny Schoemann wrote:
: - Recently I have seen on the Omud and on the Paroches: Shivisi H'
: L'negdi Thomid.
: Whatever happened to the "Da Lifnei Mi Ato Omed"; realise in who's
: presence you are, which has the same affect and is more elegant.

You reminded me of something I just saw from "Tzava'at HaRivash, The
Testament of Rabbi Israel Baal Shem Tov", tr. R' Dovid Shraga Polter,
p. 1:
> "Shivisi - I have set G-d before me at all times." (Tehillim 16:8)

> Shivisi is an expression of hishtavus (equanimity): no matter what
> happens, whether people praise or shame you - or with anything else that
> comes your way - it is all the same to you. This applies likewise to
> food: whether you are eating delicacies or other things, it is all the
> same to you. For [with this perspective] the yetzer hara is entirely
> removed from you.

> Whatever may happen, say that "it comes from [G-d], blessed be He, and
> if it is proper in His eyes...." Your motives are altogether for the
> sake of Heaven, and as for yourself, nothing makes any difference.

> This [sense of equanimity] is a very high level.

Da lifnei Mi atah omeid doesn't have that connotation. However, it has
others dealing yichud hayodeia' vehaYadua and the Rambam's whole
approach of the tachlis of life to know Him, Hilkhos Dei'os, etc...

IOW, they should have different effects and affects.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Despair is the worst of ailments. No worries
mi...@aishdas.org        are justified except: "Why am I so worried?"
http://www.aishdas.org                         - Rav Yisrael Salanter
Fax: (270) 514-1507


Avodah mailing list

End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 333

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

You can reach the person managing the list at

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

< Previous Next >