Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 332

Wed, 17 Sep 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:23:38 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] saying tehillim


R' Eli Turkel wrote:
> As an aside it is generally recognized that kabbalat shabbat
> should be said before sunset but many communities dont make it
> on time

I'm glad you wrote "should" instead of "must". Given that Kabalas Shabbos
was a recent addition of the sort that began this thread, it is difficult
to say that there's any real requirement to say Kabalas Shabbos at all. The
next step -- very much in line with the other examples of this thread -- is
to acknowledge Tircha D'Tzibura.

I'd like to combine those two thoughts and suggest that some communities
accepted the idea of saying Kabalas Shabbos, but only "al tnai" that it be
okay to say it after Shabbos has already begun -- to insist on saying it
earlier would be too much of an imposition on people who need every minute
of Erev Shabbos Prep Time that they can get.

R' Micha Berger wrote:
> The minyan should be performing tosefes Shabbos when they
> say "Mizmor shir leyom haShabbos", so it must be as RET says.
> A consequence: If the minyan is late, then Shabbos began
> before Lekha Dodi, so aveilim can't be greated with HaMaqom
> Yenacheim.

What's wrong with beginning Shabbos (i.e., personally acepting Shabbos upon oneself) and *then* starting L'chu N'ranenah?

Please note that the Mishneh Brurah in both 261:31 and 342:1 says that the
recital of Lecha Dodi constitutes Kabalas Shabbos, but in 287:3 he allows
the tzibur to say Hamakom Yenachem as long as they haven't yet said Mizmor
Shir L'Yom HaShabos.

This sounds to me like the MB is contradicting himself, but I'd like to
suggest this explanation: Note that "Hamakom Yenachem" is not really assur
even on Shabbos itself. Chazal wanted to forbid it, but they reluctantly
["b'koshi hetiru"] allowed it, with a strong preference for "Shabos Hee
Milinachem..." Also note the MB 261:31, where he explains that in the time
of the Magen Avraham, Mizmor Shir and Barchu were not said together, but
were separated by a period of time during which melacha was *allowed*.
(That's not a typo: See MB 261:31, that melacha was allowed even after
saying Mizmor Shir L'Yom Hashabos, provided that they did not yet say
Barchu, and also provided of course that it was not yet Bein Hashmashos.)

Perhaps these two ideas can be combined to say that although the MB begins
Shabbos at Boee Kallah for *most* halachos, he allows "Hamakom Yenachem"
for a few more seconds, until Mizmor Shir, when "Shabbos Hee Milinachem"
becomes preferable.

Akiva Miller

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Message: 2
From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 23:29:25 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] prozbol


I need help understanding prozbul. It is based on handing over the
loan to bet din.

1. It works because Shemitta is nowadays only derabban
2. It works because  loans through a bet din are not cancelled.

My questions is
a) is #2 from the Torah then why does it work only at a derabbanan level?
or does it #2 work only as a derabbanan because of hefker bet din hefker
b) Given #2 what exacly is the chiddush of Hillel or did he introduce #2
c) In modern days we do not require a bet din chashuv and even
actually giving it
to a bet din. Many paskin that just having 2 people sign a fprm from
the internet
connected to some bet din is enough. I have seen some that would prefer 3
signing as a bet din of hedyotot
How is all this working when it isn't really being given to a bet din
and even the
borrowers did not know

Thanks

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 3
From: "Joshua Meisner" <jmeis...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 16:47:04 -0400
Subject:
[Avodah] Removing shoes at a kever


What is the origin of the practice (which I've only seen done at the k'varos
of RMMS and RYYS) to remove one's shoes before visiting a kever?

Thanks,

Josh
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Message: 4
From: "Michael Kopinsky" <mkopin...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:18:09 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] prozbol


On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 4:29 PM, Eli Turkel <elitur...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I need help understanding prozbul. It is based on handing over the
> loan to bet din.
>
> 1. It works because Shemitta is nowadays only derabban
> 2. It works because  loans through a bet din are not cancelled.


Do you have any source for #1?  I mean this in both senses - who says that
Shemitas Kesafim bizman hazeh is d'rabbanan, and who says that prozbul only
works because it's d'rabbanan?  I was under the impression that it's
d'oraysa, and that it applies nonetheless.

The Chofetz Chaim lists Shemitas Kesafim in Sefer Hamitzvos Hakatzar as
being applicable today, which seems to indicate that he holds it's d'oraysa
bizman hazeh.

KT,
Michael
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Message: 5
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:48:52 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] prozbol


Eli Turkel wrote:
> I need help understanding prozbul. It is based on handing over the
> loan to bet din.
> 
> 1. It works because Shemitta is nowadays only derabban
> 2. It works because  loans through a bet din are not cancelled.
> 
> My questions is
> a) is #2 from the Torah then why does it work only at a derabbanan level?
> or does it #2 work only as a derabbanan because of hefker bet din hefker
> b) Given #2 what exacly is the chiddush of Hillel or did he introduce #2

See Gittin 36a, Tosfos dh "mi ika midi".  Tosfos explains that #1 is not
correct.  It does work even when shmita is mid'oraita, but Hillel's
chidush is that batei din should go along with it.  Before Hillel,
pruzbul was considered a legal but disreputable loophole.  If someone
were to go to a BD and tried to "hand over" his debts, telling them with
a wink and a nudge that he would collect the money "on behalf of the BD"
and then keep it "with their permission", they would have thrown him out
on his ear.  How dare he presume to involve them in such a nefarious
scheme to get out of a chiyuv, whether de'oraita or derabbanan?  Hillel
decided that since it's only mid'rabanan anyway, and there's a need for
it, he would legitimise the loophole and instructed all reputable batei
din to allow people to make pruzbuls, with no stigma of dishonesty.
Had it been de'oraita he *could* still have made his takana, but he
wouldn't have.



> c) In modern days we do not require a bet din chashuv and even
> actually giving it to a bet din. Many paskin that just having 2 people
> sign a form from the internet connected to some bet din is enough.

I've never heard of just 2.


> I have seen some that would prefer 3 signing as a bet din of hedyotot
> How is all this working when it isn't really being given to a bet din
> and even the borrowers did not know

Why should the borrower have to know?  The lender gives the debt to
the 3 hedyotot acting as a BD, and they authorise him to collect it
on his behalf.  The borrower can find out when the lender comes to
collect.  


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <mi...@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 20:45:04 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] prozbol


On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 05:48:52PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: See Gittin 36a, Tosfos dh "mi ika midi"...

I wrote about pruzbul in
http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2007/09/shemittah.shtml , notes based on
Rafi's bar mitzvah derashah.

It's a machloqes Rebbe and the Chamaim which is explained two different
ways in a machloqes Abayei veRava, even on that there is a machloqes
rishonim what Abayei is saying.

See the blog entry.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             You cannot propel yourself forward
mi...@aishdas.org        by patting yourself on the back.
http://www.aishdas.org                   -Anonymous
Fax: (270) 514-1507



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Message: 7
From: Zev Sero <z...@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 17:25:54 -0400
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"


Micha Berger wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 17, 2008 at 01:28:16PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
> :>The halakhah deOraisa has no significance to a particular age, and is
> :>entirely about the individual's rates of development.
> 
> : I'm sorry, what is your source for this?  AFAIK shanim are absolutely
> : required, and any hair before the appropriate age *is* shuma.  We're
> : not "unsure" whether it's shuma, it's shuma by definition.
> 
> Shuma means mole. We don't define a mole by age; we're obviously (to me)
> talking about assumptions. If the kid is too young for pubic hair to be
> likely, we assume it's a wart.

If it's only an assumption then how could we allow an 11-year-old
girl with hair to be mema'en?  Maybe this is real hair and not shuma,
and then she'd be an adult, and we're allowing her to marry another
man without a get?  Surely that would be a safek d'oraisa!  The only
explanation that I can see is that there's no safek, underage hair is
considered vadai shuma by definition.  See Rashi dh "mema'enes
veholeches" on 46a.



> Looking at tengential references... Niddah 48a doesn't mention a minimum
> age. Nor Y-mi Yevamos, Y-mi Kesuvos...

It doesn't have to, because we've already established on 45b-46a that
underage hair doesn't count.


 
> According to the Shitah Mequbetzes (BB 56b, "veli ani") writes that the
> 2 sa'aros cause the halachic chalos, that aren't merely indicators of it.

Again, before shanim they simply don't count as hair.  His point is
merely that sa'aros *after shanim* are not merely symptoms of gadlus
but the cause.  As opposed to the Rosh that you quote next.

 
> The Rosh (Gittin 9:11), citing Rabbeinu Chananel, says that it's
> intelectual maturity that causes adulthood. If we could measure that, it
> would define adulthood. Since we can't we use simanim.

But the simanim are sa'aros *and shanim*.  He's just saying that these
are only a symptom of the real phenomenon, which we can't measure
directly, and thus disagreeing with the ShM you quoted above.

 
> All of the above define adulthood by sa'aros alone. I would say that's
> consistent with age being derivative.

Sorry, I don't see it, because if there was any safek then we wouldn't
allow mi'un.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
z...@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 8
From: "Ilana Sober Elzufon" <ilanaso...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:48:45 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"


Music and dancing are pretty central for bat mitzvah celebrations in our
community, and since one of my daughters was born in the nine days and the
other during the omer, we did not/ will not have the celebrations bo bayom.

We celebrated my older daughter's bat mitzvah last month - she made a siyum
on sefer Shmuel, which I think made it something of a seudat mitzvah even
though it was several weeks after her birthday. This was particularly
significant because her father z"l had a custom to make a siyum each year in
honour of each girl's birthday. So when she became bat mitzvah, she was able
to make her own siyum.

In practice, she had of course been keeping mitzvot for chinuch for some
time already, and I will confess to not being much of a challah baker. So
the main practical change that happened davka on her bat mitzvah was
counting for a zimun. My parents came in for the occasion, and we had a
mother-daughter-granddaughter zimun at Shabbat meals, which really was nice
and marked her change of status in a concrete way.

- Ilana
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Message: 9
From: "kennethgmil...@juno.com" <kennethgmil...@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2008 22:33:14 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"


R' Micha Berger wrote:
> DeOraisa, all you need is 2 sa'aros. We require waiting
> for the child's age in order to be sure they're really
> pubic, and not a mole or some other random hair. (And
> for deRabbanan we wait for the age instead of bothering
> to check altogether.) IOW, it's not when they are
> chayavos deOraisa, it's when we know they're chayavos.

Are you saying that if a 12 1/2 year old boy has sa'aros, then on a d'Oraisa level he is a safek gadol?

Such a person would not be allowed to blow the shofar for us, but he'd certainly have to fast all day on Yom Kippur, and (if male) put on Tefillin, right?

But I've never heard of parents who warn their child, "Yes, I know it's not
your Bar/Bas Mitzvah yet, but you really do *have* to fast the *whole* Yom
Kippur." Or "Yes, I know it's not your Bar Mitzvah yet, but you really do
*have* to put on your tefillin every day." Encourage the child, yes, of
course, but only because of chinuch. But to insist that he/she MUST do so
--- Have you heard of such cases?

(There's certainly no d'rabanan prohibiting a 12-year-old from doing these
things. And I don't think I've ever heard of a d'rabanan which lowers a
chiyuv to being optional.)

Akiva Miller

____________________________________________________________
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Message: 10
From: "Ilana Sober Elzufon" <ilanaso...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 00:59:50 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] l'Dovid Hashem Ori


RAR: Does anyone feel as I do, that the feelings expressed in Mizmor shir
chanukas babayis are a bit too strong for daily recitation? The
sentiment of reliance on Hashem are all very well but how many
mornings does one really feel that one has been lifted from the depths
of Sheol?

Well, if you have EVER come face to face with despair, or felt that you were
lifted from the depths of Sheol, the perek serves to recall those feelings
and the faith and reliance they inspired. Hashem Elokai - L'OLAM odeka. You
will not be silent after such a yeshua - you will continue to praise G-d not
only that morning or the next, but l'olam, for the rest of your life.

Personally, I have found this perek - on a daily basis - to be one of the
most strengthening and inspiring parts of tefillah for several years now.

- Ilana
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Message: 11
From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:01:13 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] kabbalat shabbat


<<In L k"sh is said at that minyan's announced time for maariv.  It's
simply treated as the beginning of maariv for Shabbos.  E.g. when I was
in yeshivah, in winter we would have seder after mincha on Erev Shabbos
until IIRC 7:00 (or perhaps it was 7:30), and then we would start Lechu
Neranena; it's not that we "didn't make it" before shkia, because we all
had to be there on time for mincha, it just never occurred to anyone,
including the hanhala, that we should.>>

R. Chaim Dovid Halevi Zt"l sefardi chief rabbi of Tel Aviv for many years
strongly believed that kabbalat HAD to be said before shekia. In
Lecha Dodi we greet the shabbat bride and it makes no sense if it
is already shabbat.
His practice was to go to different shuls on friday evening and to
give them a derasha on the importance of davening kabbalat shabbat
early.

However, in many shuls they begin mincha 10 minutes before shekia
which barely gives time to finish mincha before shabbat begins which
has its own additional problems.

This problem is most acute in the winter especially outside of EY
where people work on friday and are coming home early from work
and so walk in the door of their home a few minutes before candle
lighting, shower, dress and run to shul.
In theory it should be better in EY where most people don't work
on fridays but it doesn't seem to help
For the summers the general rule is that one finishes getting
ready for shabbat at the last minute independent of when shabbat begins

-- 
Eli Turkel



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Message: 12
From: "Eli Turkel" <elitur...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 18 Sep 2008 01:05:36 +0300
Subject:
[Avodah] burial


<<Kiddush Hashem overrides Lo Salin - see Yerushalmi Kiddushin 4:1.>>

also any honors due the dead. This is why a funeral is sometimes
postponed if will bring a bigger crowd or immediate family can come.
I do recall some debates about some funerals of famous politicians
being postponed in Jerusalem

This does not seem to apply to Jerusalem where funerals seem to
be at night even when important people can't come. Of course
there was no eglah arufah in Jerusalem

-- 
Eli Turkel


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