Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 329

Tue, 16 Sep 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "Michael Kopinsky" <mkopinsky@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:29:56 -0400
Re: [Avodah] More Philosophy, If Anyone's Up to It

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 2:07 PM, <T613K@aol.com> wrote:

> RIT:  >>As far as Christian nations and Kabbalah, one must keep in mind
> that
> Kabbalah as we know it today began in the Arab countries as a backlash
> against philosophy after the Expulsion from Spain<<
> TK:   Must one keep that in mind?  I don't think the Orthodox consensus
> is that kabbalah  only started after the Spanish Expulsion 500 years ago.

Kabbalah in its various forms has existed for a long time, but in various
forms. The Kabbalah you'll see in Ramban al haTorah is not at all what we're
used to. Zohar-based kabbalah, which is probably what Ira meant by "Kabbalah
as we know it today" has only existed since the 1300s. (In many circles,
such as IIANM sefardim, Zohar-based kabbalah has almost been eclipsed by the
Arizal's kabbalah, another variant.)  That the reason for its rise in
popularity is as a backlash to Medieval rationalist philosophy is a
historical theory, and I am not a historian to fully analyze it, but it
seems to make a lot of sense.

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Message: 2
From: Gershon Dubin <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Date: Mon, 15 Sep 2008 22:32:06 -0400
Re: [Avodah] most of us do Kapparos

On Mon, 15 Sep 2008 17:58:12 -0400 (EDT) "Micha Berger"
<micha@aishdas.org> writes:
<<But doesn't the extra food on aniyim's tables trump that?>>
Not if the extra food is treif, or not properly salted (VERY common).
Compete with the big boys.  Click here to find products to benefit your business.

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Message: 3
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:06:03 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Reciting l'Dovid Hashem Ori...

I asked what possible objections there might be to saying this Tehillim.

R' Joel Rich answered:
> Some (e.g. R'YBS iiuc) are against any changes in
> nusach/matbea hatfila, even "non-objectionable" changes.
> There's also the issue of tircha dtzibbura (why not add
> parshat haman, sheis zchirot, asseret hadibrot...)

and R' David Riceman gave a very similar response.

I hope this doesn't sound sarcastic, but where do such people draw the
line? What consitutes "THE" unchangeable nusach? Do they omit Aleinu? Shir
Shel Yom? Lamnatzeach? Do they allow a long tachanun on Mon/Thu?

(Before anyone responds by writing "Yes!! In my community we *never* say such-and-such!!", please make sure to read the next paragraph.)

My guess is that there is no posek or minhag who has a clear cutoff point
to describe which additions they say and which they don't. Rather, I
suspect, each addition was judged on its own merits: "Will this community
appreciate this proposal and benefit from it, or will they consider it to
be a burden?" And thusly, some were added to the local nusach and others
were not. If I am correct, then this is what I was referring to in my post,
when I wrote that
> It is also quite possible that in some communities the
> minhag simply didn't "catch on" and become popular.

Akiva Miller

Click here to learn more about nursing jobs.

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Message: 4
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 03:09:30 GMT
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

R"N Menucha asked:
> I am wondering if there is an inyan to have a seudat bat
> mitzva (obviously for those who hold that a seudat bat
> mitzva is a seudat mitzva) on the actual birthday.

Of course! "Mitzvah habaah l'yadcha, al tachmitzena!" *Any* mitzvah should be done as soon as it's practical to do it.

Akiva Miller

Criminal Lawyers - Click here.

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Message: 5
From: "Shoshana L. Boublil" <toramada@bezeqint.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:41:10 +0300
Re: [Avodah] Gedolim and the HM (SBA)

>   5. Gedolim and the HM (SBA)

Concerning the issues raised by the teshuva of R' Yoel, I would suggest a 
more in depth analysis of the issues - including a more knowledgeable 
investigation of the facts before relying on a teshuva that does not 
consider the current reality.

Here is one example of an article on this topic, that explains the issues of 
Ger Toshav today (without Yovel) and their relevance to the HM:


For a more interesting summary of the halachic issues, here is another 


Press the "?" to obtain the answers.

(everything is in Hebrew)

Shoshana L. Boublil

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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 08:54:29 -0400
Re: [Avodah] rape

On Sun, 14 Sep 2008 9:49am +0300 Rn "Ilana Sober Elzufon" repeated in
the name of R' Moshe Sober, "mainly based on Drashot haRan":
: > But setting punishments, and defining specific criteria for imposing them,
: > is very dependent on the specific society. This is an area of law that is
: > entrusted by the Torah to the melech and should be applied appropriately in
: > each era.

On Sun, Sep 14, 2008 at 4:10pm EDT, R Yitzhak Grossman wrote:
: Note, though, that the Ran's theory is innovative, and not necessarily
: the consensus view.

Let's say others do not give such power to the melekh. We do find
that many things society needs to be protected from, moreso that the
7MBN would require non-Jewish society to protect itself from, that the
mandatory oneshim and qenasos would not.

How did they believe "uviarta hara'ah miqirbekha" was fulfilled? If not
by the melekh legislating, wouldn't the court have to do *something*?

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

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Message: 7
From: Akiva Blum <ydamyb@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 20:11:26 +0300
[Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

From: menucha 
I am wondering if there is an inyan to have a seudat bat mitzva
(obviously for those who hold that a seudat bat mitzva is a seudat
mitzva) on the actual birthday. My feeling is that since there's not
much else the girl can do on that day to show her reacing mitzvot (yes,
I know she can take challah, or tovel dishes etc.- ) that it seems more
important to have the seuda on the actual day, but i'd like to hear
other peoples reactions and sources.

Actually, a girl can tovel dishes before she is bas mitzvah. She isn't
chayeves, and isn't believed if she did (SO YD 120:14) but she can do it.
Similarly, she can take trumos umaasros as long as she has reached onas
hanedorim (SO YD 331:33). There's nothing in doing them to show that she is
already bas mitzvah.


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Message: 8
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:10:58 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Reciting l'Dovid Hashem Ori...

On Tue, Sep 16, 2008 at 03:06:03AM +0000, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
: My guess is that there is no posek or minhag who has a clear cutoff
: point to describe which additions they say and which they don't. Rather, I
: suspect, each addition was judged on its own merits: "Will this community
: appreciate this proposal and benefit from it, or will they consider it
: to be a burden?" ...

Part of that assessment should be the iffy nature of the origin of
LeDavid. Which sets it behind saying Parashas haMan, a custom of better
pedigree, comparable antiquity and less popularity.

Tirkhah deTziburah is an understatement. It's not just a matter of trying
people's patience. It's also one of keeping davening shorter than the
mispallelim's attention span. As I admitted on Areivim, I can't sit still
with kavanah as long as it would take me to say the whole shacharis,
so instead I come when shul begins, and skip as needed to catch up for
Barekhu. Add more and more after Shir Shel Yom, and more people will be
doing the same.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
micha@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

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Message: 9
From: Cantor Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 06:48:37 -0400
[Avodah] Unusual Minhag

Has anyone ever heard of fasting on Rosh Hashanah?

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Message: 10
From: Dov Kay <dov_kay@hotmail.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:54:22 +0000
[Avodah] l'Dovid Hashem Ori

<<In this whole thread, I have not noticed anything about WHY some do
not have this minhag, other than the idea that it was started by followers
of Shabbetai Tzvi. Are there any other reasons? I mean, it's just a chapter
of Tehillim; I can't imagine anyone saying that there's anything
objectionable about the content!>>
Nothing to do with the content.  The GRA objected to adding any extraneous
perakim of Tehillim to the seder hatefillah, except for Shir Shel Yom. 
Therefore, he also omitted Mizmor shir chanukas babayis, which was added on
the recommendation of the Ari z'l.
Kol tuv
Dov Kay
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Message: 11
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 10:50:39 +1000
[Avodah] Question on parasha

From: Gershon Dubin 
The pasuk in this week's parasha tells us that one may not leave a body
unburied overnight.  However, last week's parasha ended with a body being
left for as long as 4 weeks while the ziknei Beis Din are informed of the
need for them to come and then they actually come to measure.  How could
this be?

Who says anything about 4 weeks?


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Message: 12
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 11:05:07 +1000
Re: [Avodah] HaShem as God's Name

From: T613K@aol.com
..., my impression is that it was  rare for people to refer to Him as "Gott"
but rather they would say the  "Ribono Shel Olam" which, the way my
grandparents said it, when I was a  child I thought was one  six-syllable
Yiddish word -- "Ribonashalolam"  -- with the major stress on the second
syllable and a secondary stress on the  fifth (penultimate) syllable. 

This thread reminded me of us as youngsters saying (when not davvening or
making a brocho) "Adoshem" rather than "Hashem".
I thought that this may have been a Hungarian thing (and the KSA 6:3 says
not to use that term). Our Rav at the time, Rav Betzalel Stern zt'l, also
used that word. 
But in later years I noticed that so did the rav of Chabad, Rav Groner zt'l.
So there must have been a far greater useage in earlier times.

Anyone else hear it said thus?


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Message: 13
From: "Gershon Dubin" <gershon.dubin@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 13:10:31 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Question on parasha

-- "SBA" <sba@sba2.com> wrote:

<<Who says anything about 4 weeks?>>

Maximum. The furthest point in E"Y is two weeks away from Yerushalayim, as
per edei hachodesh.  Two weeks to tell them (if the fax is not working) and
two weeks for them to come.

Data point:  the Rambam holds that you do leave him there until the medida
is done.  Rav Chaim Kanievsky in Nachal Eisan brings someone who suggests
that the Rambam is only when the distance is not too long, but he (RCK)
rejects that.

The Tosefta and Yerushalmi say bury, then measure from the (marked) place.


Click to reduce wrinkles, increase energy and drive - anti-aging.

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Message: 14
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:02:15 GMT
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> ... I don't think it makes any difference whatsoever when
> you have the party (or when you have a boy's bar mitzva
> party either, for that matter).  Something specific happens
> at a bris or at a wedding.  Nothing happens on a boy's 13th
> or a girl's 12th birthday -- nothing particular that you do
> that day. ... there's no certain thing you /have/ to do to
> become bar mitzva or bas mitzva as there is something you
> /have/ to do change your status from single to married
> person. ...

I'd like to focus on two phrases you used here: "Nothing happens on a birthday" and "nothing that you do that day". There's a big difference between these two.

Indeed, there's nothing special that the Bar Mitzvah or Bas Mitzvah does on
that day. There is no act which one performs to effect this change in
status. And if the parents have done their chinuch adequately, all the
mitzvos being done today were also being done yesterday. But this does not
mean that nothing's happening.

Sure, nothing *visible* is happening. But nothing visible happens when the
sun goes down on Friday either. Something is very definitely happening, we
just don't see it.

A child has become an adult. We don't see it with our eyes, but it *did* happen. Why would you think that it is not something to celebrate?

L'havdil, let's think for a moment about a typically normal non-Jew, who
has just turned 21 years old (or whatever the age is in your jurisdiction).
He wakes in the morning, and says "Hooray! Now I can drink legally!" Even
if he does not yet exercise that right, he is already celebrating the
ability to do so. And even if he has already had some underage drinks, he
still celebrates the ability to do so legally.

Back to our subject, is it any less of a celebration when night falls, and the new young adult says, "I did mitzvos before, but now they're d'Oraisa! Hooray!"

Akiva Miller

Click now to choose from thousands of designs for your checks!

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Message: 15
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:40:15 EDT
Re: [Avodah] bat mitzva "bo bayom"

From: "Rich, Joel" _JRich@sibson.com_ (mailto:JRich@sibson.com) 

>>See Yam shel  shlomo Bava Kamma 7:37  (ein lcha seuda gdola mizeh) on the
day he  becomes a chiyuv.<<


>>The  same can be said about a siyum. Just because some guy says the names of
Rav  Pappa's sons we get to party, and have meat during the 9 days? (Or eat
on  erev pesach?)

Rather, it's clear that a seudas mitzvah is warranted for a  significant
milestone or accomplishment. The poskim have said a bar mitzvah  is
significant enough for that, and I don't see why a bat mitzvah would be  any

There is a difference between an "accomplishment" and a "milestone."   Having 
a siyum marks an accomplishment -- there was something you had to  do.  
Having a birthday is a milestone.  There are many milestones that  go unmarked.  
For instance, the day a woman gives birth to a baby is a  huge milestone for 
her, guaranteed to be remembered for the rest of her  life.  But there is no 
se'uda associated with it.  She can make a  se'udas hoda'ah if she wants but most 
people don't.  I suppose the party  made for a bar or bas mitzva could be 
se'udas hoda'ah or if the  boy makes a siyum it could be a se'udas mitzva.
RJR quoted the  "Yam shel shlomo Bava Kamma 7:37  (ein lcha seuda  gdola 
mizeh)."  The same logic would seem to apply equally to a bas mitzva,  yet there 
never was any such thing as a bas mitzva celebration until the  
Reconstructionists and then the Reform came up with it.  
I find it highly ironic that we are noch-shleppers to the Reform movement  in 
this, that today most charedim make a party for their 12-year-old girls and  
don't even know where the idea of a bas mitzva party came from.  Not that  
there's anything wrong with that, to quote Jerry Seinfeld.
AFAIK even the bar mitzva celebration is a relatively recent  innovation.  
IIRC in MOAG it says that R' Yakov Kaminetsky did not have any  kind of 
celebration for his bar mitzva. He was a young boy away at  yeshiva far from home and 
maybe the Rosh Yeshiva wished him mazal tov on  his birthday.  Maybe he got an 
aliyah. Did anybody even drink a  lechaim?  Probably not.  I think that was 
pretty common.


--Toby  Katz

**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, 
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.      
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