Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 328

Tue, 16 Sep 2008

• 1. most of us do Kapparos (Prof. Levine)
• 2. Re: most of us do Kapparos (Micha Berger)
• 3. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (Rich, Joel)
• 4. Re: More Philosophy, If Anyone's Up to It (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. heter mechira (Eli Turkel)
• 6. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (T613K@aol.com)
• 7. Re: most of us do Kapparos (Zev Sero)
• 8. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (Rich, Joel)
• 9. Re: bat mitzva "bo bayom" (Michael Kopinsky)

At 05:08 PM 9/15/2008,Ben Waxman wrote:

>Most of us do?
>------------------------------
>
> > From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
> >
> > OTOH, most of us do kaparos despite his objections, and rely on the
> > vetting process to assume that there must be something wrong with the
> > analysis, somewhere.
> >

Due to the Chassidization of Yiddishkeit, it has become the "in thing 
to do" Kapporas with chickens. However, I have always done Kapporas 
with money. I am 99.9% sure that Rav A. Miller did it with money.

My father-in-law has stopped doing it with chickens, because he has 
seen the way the chickens are mishandled.

Someone told me that he saw cases of chickens left out in the sun 
over Yom Kippur. They all died! Given the abuse that the chickens 
suffer, I would think that people would wake up and do Kapporas with money.

YL
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080915/abcb6701/attachment-0001.htm>

On Mon, September 15, 2008 5:51 pm, Prof. Levine wrote:
: At 05:08 PM 9/15/2008,Ben Waxman wrote:
: Due to the Chassidization of Yiddishkeit, it has become the "in thing
: to do" Kapporas with chickens. However, I have always done Kapporas
: with money....

I meant that between the two, most Jews do some form of kaparos.

We discussed this in the past. In my own family, we stopped using
chickens at least 3 generations ago, and I don't think we did it in
Litta either.

Therefore, given the SA's questions of shechutei chutz and derekh
emori, I didn't find it simple to restore the minhag once broken. So
even where a local institution offers chickens and a local school
tries telling my kids it's more authentic, I still decline.

: My father-in-law has stopped doing it with chickens, because he has
: seen the way the chickens are mishandled.

But doesn't the extra food on aniyim's tables trump that?

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "Man wants to achieve greatness overnight,
micha@aishdas.org        and he wants to sleep well that night too."
http://www.aishdas.org     - Rav Yosef Yozel Horwitz, Alter of Novarodok
Fax: (270) 514-1507

I am wondering if there is an inyan to have a seudat bat mitzva
(obviously for those who hold that a seudat bat mitzva is a seudat
mitzva) on the actual birthday.  My feeling is that since there's not
much else the girl can do on that day to show her reacing mitzvot (yes,
I know she can take challah, or tovel dishes etc.- ) that it seems more
important to have the seuda on the actual day, but i'd like to hear
other peoples reactions and sources.
thanks,
menucha

_______________________________________________
Well, I still don't really know what it means when we say "there's an
inyan to...." but w/o respect to "political" issues, I'd say yes as the
parallel by boys iirc is that it is only a seudat mitzvah if done on the
actual day of the bar mitzvah.

KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.

 
 
From: "Ira Tick" _itick1986@gmail.com_ (mailto:itick1986@gmail.com) 





RIT:  >>As far as Christian nations and Kabbalah, one must  keep in mind that
Kabbalah as we know it today began in the Arab countries as  a backlash
against philosophy after the Expulsion from  Spain<<
 
TK:   Must one keep that in mind?  I don't think the  Orthodox consensus is 
that kabbalah  only started after  the Spanish Expulsion 500 years ago.  
 
 
 
 
RIT:  >>... Interestingly, much of
kabbalah shares  elements with the Greek philosophic tradition (think
Neo-platonism,  Pantheism, etc) and at the same time Oriental
mysticism.  ... (BTW, we  know that much of the discussion of mysticism in 
the Talmud
comes from  Persian and Zoroastrian mythology; Lilith for example, who
has a large role  in Kabbalah, comes from ancient Persian demonology).<<
 
>>>

 
TK:  Before you said that kabbalah "as we know it today" is  relatively 
modern and started only 500 years ago.  Now you are talking  about mysticism in the 
Talmud, which you evidently consider to be something  other than "kabbalah" 
or at least different from "kabbalah as we know it  today."
 
I would like to say that I shy away from Kabbalah, partly because I have  a 
somewhat Hirschian view of it, which I will try to articulate although it is  
not easy.  That view is a rationalistic view, a view that places more  emphasis 
on things that can be discovered with the mind or through scientific,  
empirical knowledge.  It is not that I don't believe Kabbalah is true, but  that I 
don't believe it is for us.  It's something to be studied and delved  into only 
by rare individuals who are already middle-aged and already major  talmidei 
chachamim, and for everyone else, it can easily deteriorate into a kind  of 
game-playing.  
 
Some people use what has been called "practical kabbalah" in order to get  
what they want from the universe -- what my father used to call "pushing  
buttons."  Eat garlic and almonds, wear a magnet, recite these verses,  presto you 
will have a son.  There's also a higher level of practical  kabbalah in which 
what you want and what you are trying to get is something very  idealistic and 
selfless, like world peace and the coming of Moshiach.  The  buttons you push 
might even be mitzvos, like lighting candles in order to bring  peace into the 
Higher Spheres or baking challa with forty other women in order  to bring a 
baby or a refuah sheleimah to another person in need.  It's  still "pushing 
buttons."
 
Other people play a completely different kind of game with kabbalah, and  
that is an academic, intellectual game.  These are the kind of people who  don't 
actually study kabbalah but rather read /about/ kabbalah, like people who  
really get into Gershom Scholem (full disclosure:  I have read Scholem  myself, 
out of intellectual curiosity).  The game here is to show off  academic, 
intellectual prowess.  The problem with it is that it tends to  give its 
practitioners an unwarranted sense of their own superiority to the  actual texts of 
kabbalah and to the gedolim of the past who were  mekubalim.  The books written by 
secular professors in which they identify  the ancient Egyptian and Persian 
sources of Talmudic mysticism and the medieval  Arab sources of Eastern European 
kabbalah are books that au fond reject the  truth of kabbalah at all, but 
worse, reject the truth of /everything/ in the  Talmud and in our sacred 
literature.  
 
These academics tend to reject, not just a given body of mystical  knowledge, 
but the very concept of Torah miSinai.  When you get into  academics you are 
playing with fire, because the condescending superiority of  these professors 
is simply not conducive to yiras Shamayim, but to the opposite  -- to a view 
of Chazal as somewhat mentally childish, prone to superstition and  unaware of 
the actual sources of their own beliefs.   
 
Now, there /is/ room to read and study what academics say about Kabbalah,  on 
a need-to-know basis, for da mah lehashiv and for chinuch.  But a person  who 
is not himself a talmid chacham should really read this stuff very, very  
warily if at all.  I knew myself when I was reading Scholem, for example,  that I 
lacked both knowledge of Torah and knowledge of Kabbalah, and I also  knew 
that he himself was not frum, and I therefore read him skeptically, to  satisfy 
curiosity but not to assume that I now know kabbalah or that I now  know "the 
truth" about the historical development of Kabbalah.
 
As I said before, I tend to shy away from Kabbalah altogether and I  think 
that is the best course for the vast majority of Orthodox Jews.  It's  enough 
for me to know in a very general way that our actions here below  influence the 
cosmos.  I don't need and am not interested in any more  detail than that.





--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, 
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.      
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080915/20974274/attachment-0001.htm>

<<Isn't it impressive how many halachic sources I can  quote?  And isn't it
amazing that I've turned around and endorsed the heter  mechira after being
dubious about it in the past?

Actually, of course, I didn't write the above post.  It was written by  an
Areivim lurker.  I am merely acting as his amanuensis.>>

For those poor of us who live in EY and have forgotten their English
what is "amanuensis" ?

The  point is that heter mechira has been argued for and against in
many places both in halachic seforim and also in more general publications.
This includes both halachic and haskafic disagreements.

All those discussing the issue should acquaint themselves with the
published stuff (for example as Toby has brought)


-- 
Eli Turkel

 
From: menucha _menu@inter.net.il_ (mailto:menu@inter.net.il) 

>>I am  wondering if there is an inyan to have a seudat bat mitzva
(obviously for  those who hold that a seudat bat mitzva is a seudat
mitzva) on the actual  birthday.<<
 
 






>>>>>
 
As for the claim that this is a "seudas mitzva" I must admit that I can't  
see what makes the party a seudas mitzva at all.  I don't think it makes  any 
difference whatsoever when you have the party (or when you have a boy's bar  
mitzva party either, for that matter).  Something specific happens at a  bris or 
at a wedding.  Nothing happens on a boy's 13th or a girl's 12th  birthday -- 
nothing particular that you do that day.  Leining is optional,  an aliyah is 
optional, there's no certain thing you /have/ to do to become  bar mitzva or bas 
mitzva as there is something you /have/ to do change your  status from single 
to married person.  It's just that from this day  forward, you have to keep 
all the mitzvos that you have to keep, every day from  now on and for the rest 
of your life.   But you reached that status of  "responsible adult" just by 
waking up that day.  The first bracha you made  after waking up on your birthday 
-- saying asher yatzar maybe -- calls  for a seudas mitzva?  I just don't see 
it.
 
 
 
Please see what I wrote on Cross-Currents about that very issue, expressing  
my ambivalence about the very idea of a bas mitzva.  These were my maiden  
efforts, literally! -- my first two posts on Cross-Currents.
_http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2005/01/04/why-is-my-daugh
ter-having-a
-bas-mitzva/_ 
(http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2005/01/04/wh
y-is-my-daughter-having-a-bas-mitzva/) 
 
and also 
_http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2005/01
/07/correspondence-about-my-daughters-bas-mitzva/_ 
(http://www.cross-currents.com/archives/2005/01
/07/correspondence-about-my-daughters-bas-mitzva/) 
 
In those posts I expressed both the negative and the positive aspects of  the 
modern-day bas mitzva celebration.

 

--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Psssst...Have you heard the news? There's a new fashion blog, 
plus the latest fall trends and hair styles at StyleList.com.      
(http://www.stylelist.com/trends?ncid=aolsty00050000000014)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avod
ah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080915/0410f591/attachment-0001.htm>

Micha Berger wrote:
> On Mon, September 15, 2008 5:51 pm, Prof. Levine wrote:

> : My father-in-law has stopped doing it with chickens, because he has
> : seen the way the chickens are mishandled.
> 
> But doesn't the extra food on aniyim's tables trump that?

Money can probably buy them food more efficiently; perhaps they'd
prefer something other than lots and lots of chicken :-)  And if they
are indeed mishandled, then there's a nontrivial chance that the
chicken you use will end up treifa in a way that you won't find out
about in time to do another one.  The answer to that one is not to
mishandle them.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

 
 
 
As for the claim that this is a "seudas mitzva" I must admit that I
can't see what makes the party a seudas mitzva at all.  I don't think it
makes any difference whatsoever when you have the party (or when you
have a boy's bar mitzva party either, for that matter).  Something
specific happens at a bris or at a wedding.  
 

--Toby Katz
=============


See Yam shel shlomo Bava Kamma 7:37  (ein lcha seuda gdola mizeh) on the
day he becomes a chiyuv.
 
KT
Joel Rich
THIS MESSAGE IS INTENDED ONLY FOR THE USE OF THE 
ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20080915/daa8a876/attachment.htm>

On Mon, Sep 15, 2008 at 7:21 PM, <T613K@aol.com> wrote:

> As for the claim that this is a "seudas mitzva" I must admit that I can't
> see what makes the party a seudas mitzva at all.  I don't think it makes any
> difference whatsoever when you have the party (or when you have a boy's bar
> mitzva party either, for that matter).  Something specific happens at a bris
> or at a wedding. <snip>
>

The same can be said about a siyum. Just because some guy says the names of
Rav Pappa's sons we get to party, and have meat during the 9 days? (Or eat
on erev pesach?)

Rather, it's clear that a seudas mitzvah is warranted for a significant
milestone or accomplishment. The poskim have said a bar mitzvah is
significant enough for that, and I don't see why a bat mitzvah would be any
different.

KT,
Michael
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.aishdas.org/pipermail/avodah-ai
shdas.org/attachments/20080915/dc098cf1/attachment.htm>

------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 328
***************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."