Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 296

Fri, 15 Aug 2008

• 1. Re: KSA, MB, AhS, Chayei Adam and other codes (Micha Berger)
• 2. Re: KSA, MB, AhS, Chayei Adam and other codes (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: 10 shevatim (Micha Berger)
• 4. tisha baav on sunday (Eli Turkel)
• 5. Tefillin On and Off (Cantor Wolberg)
• 6. Bracha on Megillah (Henry Topas)
• 7. Re: shkia according to SA (Michael Poppers)
• 8. Re: tisha baav on sunday (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Bracha on Megillah (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Mesei Midbar (T613K@aol.com)
• 11. Re: Tisha B'Av on Sunday (T613K@aol.com)
• 12. Re: Bracha on Megillah (Henry Topas)
• 13. Re: Mesei Midbar (menucha)

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 05:38:33PM -0400, David Riceman wrote:
: Micha Berger wrote:
: >RER makes a number of claims.

: I'm hazy on the details, but I do recall that RYBS's comment on RER came 
: several years before anyone introduced mekah ta'us into the equation.  I 
: suspect one of us has the history mixed up, and maybe we should verify 
: that before we continue the discussion.

Your advice it valid, but I am impatient. So, while we wait...

I thought that dimissing tav lemeisav means nothing without opening the
door for saying meqach ta'ut. With TlM, one would say that even had she
known then what she knows now, she would still be better off married to
him -- so the ta'us isn't significant.

And FWIW does http://tinyurl.com/64qgzg (see pg 100 if it doesn't open
to it), a book contributed to by RER -- although I don't know who wrote
the "Conclusion".

Which is why I took it for granted that tav lemeisav is a non-issue
since meqach ta'us only includes flaws that existed at the time of the
wedding which she can actually argue she never would have lived with.
(As opposed to nistapcha sedehahh.)

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Man can aspire to spiritual-moral greatness
micha@aishdas.org        which is seldom fully achieved and easily lost
http://www.aishdas.org   again. Fullfillment lies not in a final goal,
Fax: (270) 514-1507      but in an eternal striving for perfection. -RSRH

Micha Berger wrote:

> The question would be on heter iska -- if it works, why wasn't it done
> before?
> 
> One reason is that the heter iska is oly about a century or two newer
> than the ubiquity of banking on ribis.
> 
> A second may be that it's simply not that blatantly obvious.

It really isn't obvious, until after you've heard it.  As people put
their minds to problems, they come up with solutions.  Originally you
had only the heter for an actual iska, then over the generations
people came up with more generally useful arrangements, culminating
in the KSA's cheque-swapping scheme.  Once you've seen the KSA, why
use anything else, and why did nobody earlier come up with it?  I'd
say because it took a spark of creativity to think of it.

Now why doesn't that apply to hafka'at kidushin?  Because the gemara
that mentions it has been around for 1600 years, and every rishon and
achron has known it well.  Had that daf been lost, and only recently
rediscovered (and authenticated as being a genuine part of Shas), then
you could say that the concept never occurred to them.  But since they
knew of the option, why didn't they apply it in such cases?  The only
reasonable answer is that they considered and rejected it.  And we're
no smarter than they were.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 10:07:30PM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:micha@aishdas.org) 
:> Why does  everyone speak of the 10 lost shevatim?
:> Didn't Malkhus Yehudah include 3  shevatim -- Yehudah, Binyamin and
:> Shim'on -- plus the majority of  sheivet/non-sheivet of Levi? <<

: The claim has been made (I don't know where) that individual  members of all 
: 12 (13) tribes lived in Yehudah and were exiled to Bavel at  the time of 
: Churban Bayis Rishon -- and returned to E'Y at the time of Binyan Bayis Sheni.  
Refugees. Certainly not comparable in number.

...
: Mordechai in the Megilla is identified as being from Shevet Binyamin and  yet 
: he is called "Ish Yehudi" so evidently he lived at the time when tribal  
: identities were becoming blurred and everybody was just being included in
: Shevet Yehudah.

Since he is called Ish Yemini, I don't think they were blurring.

Rather, the word "Yehudi" shifted in meaning from referring to shevet
Yehudah to referring to Malkhus Yehudah and its refugees.

: At any rate, we have two identified tribes remaining today, Yehudah and 
: Levi, which by simple arithmetic suggests that *ten* tribes have been lost. 
: (Unless you want to say that there were really 13 tribes, if you count Menashe
: and Ephraim as two and also count Levi. In which case, 11 tribes are "lost,"
: but most people would count Menashe and Ephraim as one for this purpose.)

I would think that Levi is the non-tribe, since we're talking about
kibbush haaretz, and Levi has no nachalah.

And still, leshitaseikh, since most of Binyamin (as large of a percentage
as Yehudah) are among the Jews, in what sense are they -- or Shim'on
lost? Leshitaseih, we have 4 shevatim with majorities preserved even
through Sancheirev. I started by asking about 3, not counting Levi. You
made the question bigger, not less.

I guess the difference of opinion between us is:
1- Is a sheivet that is among us but unidentified called "lost"
2- Is being called a Jew mean that we think you're from sheivet Yehudah
   rather than Malkhus Yehudah? (Which changes whether non-Leviim 
   are being unspecified, or whether benei Binyamin and Shim'on are being
   mislabeled.)


On Wed, Aug 13, 2008 at 02:45:32PM +0200, Arie Folger wrote:
: I wonder, whether everyone agrees that the non Jewish child of a Jew, who 
: converted, has absolutely no filial relationship with his father, or whether 
: some authorities would say that while the qedushah of kehunah cannot be 
: transmitted this way, one could maitain his status as a Danite, Reubenite, 
: Simonite, Zebulonite, Jew, Benyaminite etc.

Rashi on Vayiqra 24:10 qwuoters Toras Kohanim that the meqalel spoke in
anger after being told he could not camp with shevet Dan, and then Moshe
confirmed their ruling.

It is also quite pointed that rather than saying the meqalel was from
matei Dan, it says "sheim imo Shelomis bas Divri lematei Dan". Because
he had no sheivet.

So it would seem that even for non-Leviim, people with no patrilineal
line are sheivet-less.

But then, kibush ha'aretz next time around will cover much more land
than the promised nachalos. Plenty of room.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             When memories exceed dreams,
micha@aishdas.org        The end is near.
http://www.aishdas.org                   - Rav Moshe Sherer
Fax: (270) 514-1507

> By no stretch of the imagination can a major meal  be called a
> "public display /of mourning/."...

I disagree. We all know why we're eating more, and why it's not the usual
seder hayom. Which is sort of my point; by conforming to pro forma
definition of avoiding aveilus berabbim, we are ignoring the fact that in
reality we're turning part of Shabbos into a pre-9 beAv specific thing --
and thus marking aveilus berabbim.>>

I dont understand the point. One is allowed to make a bed Shabbat afternoon
in case one needs it. One can wash dishes if maybe guests will come etc.
Thus, as long as there is some potential use it is not considered preparing
for chol.
Since eating a big meal in the afternoon has obvious benefits for shabbat
itself I don't see the problem. The fact that we have in our mind for
motzei shabbat or sunday is irrelevant

-- 
Eli Turkel

R' Micha wrote: Shel yad is first because it's first in the pasuq  
"uqeshartem le'os al
yadekha, vehayu letotafos bein einekha. That's the reason in Menachos  
36a

This I already had learned and knew, but I wanted to give my own  
chiddush. When you
say: "Before we use that strength, we better think!" you're absolutely  
right. However, I
did not say "USE" that strength, my exact words were: "Before we can  
even think, we must POSSESS
physical strength...."   There's a big difference between "Possessing"  
and "Using." You must first
POSSESS before you can USE.

The second point is: following the reason in Menachos 36a, it explains  
why the shel yad goes on
first and then the shel rosh. But it doesn't explain why when removing  
them, you do just the opposite.

Kol tuv.
ri
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Can someone remind me why we only make a bracha on Megilat Esther?

Cantor Henry Topas
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In Avodah Digest V25#295, RET asked:
> I would appreciate it if others could look at SA YD 266 8,9....They bring
down the SA both in OH 261 and in YD 266:9 which discuss
shekia and they assume that in BOTH places SA is paskening like Rabbenu
Tam. <
I don't see how SA YD 266:9 is according to shitas RT.

A guten Shabbes/Shabbas Shalom and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 4:29pm PDT, R Eli Turkel wrote:
: Since eating a big meal in the afternoon has obvious benefits for shabbat
: itself I don't see the problem. The fact that we have in our mind for
: motzei shabbat or sunday is irrelevant

But you're also saying (as clarified in peronal email) that the fact
that we and observers will have in mind that this is about remembering
(the human cost of) churban bayis, and will/should start feeling sorrow
because of those thoughts is also irrelevent.

Saying that aveilus is defined as a rite, and not as an emotion that
a rite shows us how to productively express seems to me to be a major
chiddush.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 08:44:43PM -0400, Henry Topas wrote:
: Can someone remind me why we only make a bracha on Megilat Esther?

The question is really why we are only careful to use a megillah for
reading Esther. Gra-nikim, and much of Israel, read the other megillos
from a kelaf with a berakhah.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

 
 
From: "Gershon Dubin" _gershon.dubin@juno.com_ 
(mailto:gershon.dubin@juno.com) 



>>Did everyone die when they reached 60?  
Or did some  die younger and some older, with the net-net being that all who 
were 20-60 at  the yetzias mitzraim were dead by the time they were ready to 
enter E"Y.
If  the former, only those who had turned (would be turning?) 60 during that 
year  should have dug graves;  everyone else would have known they still had  
time.<<


>>>>>
Probably a lot of people didn't keep such good  records and they didn't 
exactly have birth certificates so they may not have  known exactly how old they 
were.  I'm guessing they would dig  graves when they got close to age sixty and 
thought it /might/ be this  year.  If you think that it's strange people 
wouldn't know how old they  were, when we lived in S. Africa we found that a lot of 
tribal people didn't  know how old they were.






--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-
review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
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From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" _mgluck@gmail.com_ (mailto:mgluck@gmail.com) 


>By no stretch of the imagination can a major meal be called a  "public
>display /of mourning/."? A better question might be, isn't this  hachana
>lechol? [--TK]
-------------


way - can you tell someone,  "Drink a lot before the Taanis!" or something of
the sort - is that what you  meant?

>>>>>
It should have been obvious from the context that I was talking about  eating 
a big meal just before the fast.  Who would imagine that  "not-eating" is 
hachana?  Who prepares for a fast by  not-eating?





--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-
review?ncid=aolaut00030000000007 )
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OK, thank you. Brings up the next questions.  Most shuls read haftorot from
a sefer, not klaf, and the established bracha rishona is used:

1. In shuls which choose to read haftorot from a klaf, would the bracha
change to an "asher kidshanu bimitzvotav" formulation?

2. If we read haftorot from a sefer with a bracha, why is there not a
similar bracha established for the reading of a megillah from other than a
klaf?

Kol tuv,

HT

-----Original Message-----
From: Micha Berger [mailto:micha@aishdas.org] 
Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 5:58 AM
To: htopas@canpro.ca; A High-Level Torah Discussion Group
Subject: Re: [Avodah] Bracha on Megillah

On Thu, Aug 14, 2008 at 08:44:43PM -0400, Henry Topas wrote:
: Can someone remind me why we only make a bracha on Megilat Esther?

The question is really why we are only careful to use a megillah for reading
Esther. Gra-nikim, and much of Israel, read the other megillos from a kelaf
with a berakhah.

:-)BBii!
-Micha

Since the mifkadim and erechin were very specifically by ages, didn't 
they have to know how old they were?
menucha

T613K@aol.com wrote:

> Probably a lot of people didn't keep such good records and they didn't 
> exactly have birth certificates so they may not have known exactly how 
> old they were.  I'm guessing they would dig graves when they got close 
> to age sixty and thought it /might/ be this year.  If you think that 
> it's strange people wouldn't know how old they were, when we lived in 
> S. Africa we found that a lot of tribal people didn't know how old 
> they were.
> >>>>>
>
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