Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 291

Wed, 13 Aug 2008

• 1. value of food (Eli Turkel)
• 2. Re: 10 shevatim (T613K@aol.com)
• 3. Re: Washing dishes from Shabbos Erev Tisha B'Av lunch (T613K@aol.com)
• 4. Re: Hating a Meisis to Kefirah, Should be - Hating any Jew (T613K@aol.com)
• 5. Re: kenignaot (T613K@aol.com)
• 6. Re: Tisha B'Av on Sunday (T613K@aol.com)
• 7. Re: Tisha B'Av on Sunday (Stuart Feldhamer)
• 8. Re: ID of chilazon and chagavim (Richard Wolpoe)

The value of food is exactly what it costs.  Ascribing it a higher
value than that is pure mysticism,>>

That is the heart of our disagreement. The value of food is
not determined but its monetary value. Bread has a higher
beracha than steak because man has out more work into it (RYBS)
or for whatever reason. Nothing to do with the monetary value of
food. In fact we don't make a beracha on using other inaminate
products (except smelling)
We are careful not to throw food especially bread because of
its intrinsic importance.

Those of us on the list whose parents went through WWII
all remember the lesson of not wasting food because the
Europeans (Indians etc) are starving.

Bottom line I deny that either halakhah or mysticism treat
food as just one more commodity

I for one have finished and give Zev the last word

-- 
Eli Turkel

 
 
From: Micha Berger _micha@aishdas.org_ (mailto:micha@aishdas.org) 

>>Why does  everyone speak of the 10 lost shevatim?

Didn't Malkhus Yehudah include 3  shevatim -- Yehudah, Binyamin and
Shim'on -- plus the majority of  sheivet/non-sheivet of Levi? <<
 




>>>>>
The claim has been made (I don't know where) that individual  members of all 
12 (13) tribes lived in Yehudah and were exiled to Bavel at  the time of 
Churban Bayis Rishon -- and returned to E'Y at the time of Binyan  Bayis Sheni.  
But they lost their tribal identities and just kind of  assimilated into Shevet 
Yehudah, except for those who had a distinct  memory/family tradition of being 
from Shevet Levi.  
 
Mordechai in the Megilla is identified as being from Shevet Binyamin and  yet 
he is called "Ish Yehudi" so evidently he lived at the time when tribal  
identities were becoming blurred and everybody was just being included in Shevet  
Yehudah.
 
It could be that when Moshiach comes, Eliyahu Hanavi will reconstitute all  
the tribes by telling each Jew exactly what Shevet he is /really/ part of, ben  
achar ben.  Maybe the "lost" tribes will never be "found" because by now  
they have been goyim for too many generations.  But we will still have  twelve 
tribes, just by correctly identifying all the Jews who have been wrongly  
assigned to Yehuda all these years.
 
At any rate, we have two identified tribes remaining today, Yehudah and  
Levi, which by simple arithmetic suggests that *ten* tribes have been  lost.  
(Unless you want to say that there were really 13 tribes, if you  count Menashe 
and Ephraim as two and also count Levi.  In which case, 11  tribes are "lost," 
but most people would count Menashe and Ephraim as one for  this purpose.)
 


--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut
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From: "Doron Beckerman" _beck072@gmail.com_ (mailto:beck072@gmail.com) 

When are people  going to wash the dishes from this Shabbos lunch (assuming
you won't be using  them for third meal) - After the meal on Shabbos, TB
night/day pre-Chatzos,  post Chatzos, Motzei TB?  Thanks.




>>>>>
I washed the Shabbos dishes on Tisha B'av after  chatzos.  


--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
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RMB wrote: >>And if one discloses the hatred, then even according  to the 
others (which
includes Rashi, Ramban and the Yad Qetana's peshat in  the Rambam), you
would probably still be oveir "lo siqom velo sitor". It's  just not "sin'ah
bilvavekha". <<
 
 
>>>>>
Too lazy to look it up right now but I seem to  remember that "hocheiach 
tocheiach" is right after "lo tisna" and is explained  to mean that you must tell 
somebody what he has done wrong.  That is not  nekama or netira.  It's what 
you're /supposed/ to do.  When you stew  over the wrongs somebody has done (or 
gossip about them), it increases your  feelings of hatred for that person, but 
when you talk to him directly, you give  him a chance to explain his case in a 
way you had not considered, or perhaps to  apologize and make things right, 
and then you don't end up hating him.  The  opposite of "don't hate him in your 
heart" is NOT "hate him openly."    It is, "TELL him openly what is bothering 
you, so that you can remove hatred  from your heart."


 


--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut
00050000000017 )
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From: "Simon Krysl" _skrysl@gmail.com_ (mailto:skrysl@gmail.com) 


>>I am writing in the hope for a possible insight on perhaps a  technical - 
but
to me no less perplexing - question. The Kitzur Shulkhan  Arukh (126.4),
based on Magen Avraham 224.3, prohibits attending "animal  shows" presented
by goyim, as well as dances and other joyful occasions, as  moshavei leicim.
R. Avrohom Davis translates "kenignaot" as "animal shows"  which, I assume,
would concern circuses and similar, yet an explanatory note  ( in the text of
the Kitzur itself?) in the Hebrew explicates kenignaot as  "ceid hayot", that
is, hunts. (I do not find any etymology or explanation of  the word
"kenignaot" elsewhere.) <<
 
>>>>>
I will make a guess -- that "kenig" is the  Yiddish word for "king" and that 
what is being referred to here is the kind of  "animal show" that would be put 
on for kings, for example, some kind of  tournament  or staged combat where 
knights on horses joust in an arena,  with one of them ending up dead.  The old 
 Roman gladiator  contests, and Spanish bull fighting, and even Wild West 
rodeos, also come  to mind.  (However, in rodeos humans aren't hurt and animals 
aren't killed  for the amusement of the crowd, so they aren't so bad in my  
mind.)






--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut
00050000000017 )
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From: "Stuart Feldhamer" _stuart.feldhamer@gmail.com_ 
(mailto:stuart.feldhamer@gmail.com) 


>>The halacha is that the fast starts at shkiah. Why is it that  we're allowed
to fast on Shabbos for 9 Av, especially when Shabbos is docheh  9 Av? Since
Bein Hashmashot is a safeik, why don't we see safeik d'oraita  l'chumrah in
the case of oneg Shabbos, and safeik d'rabbanan l'hakeil in the  case of
Tisha B'av?<<

>>>>>
Once you have  eaten anything that day, you are no longer fasting.  My 
husband  always drinks some water Shabbos morning before going to shul,  in  case he 
doesn't get around to kiddush before chatzos, so that he won't be guilty  of 
"fasting" on Shabbos.

 
Every time you go one hour without food -- especially when your stomach  is 
already full -- do you call that fasting?!  But even if you were  actually 
hungry, it would not be called "fasting" if you had eaten earlier that  day.





--Toby  Katz
=============






**************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? 
Read reviews on AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut
00050000000017 )
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The common thread between all the replies is that one hour of not eating is
not really fasting.

 

I had thought of that answer but I find it to be incomplete. You can't have
it both ways. Either it's fasting, or it isn't. If it isn't fasting, then
there is no need to make a restriction on eating and drinking during that
time.

 

Stuart

 

From: T613K@aol.com [mailto:T613K@aol.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 11:07 PM
To: avodah@lists.aishdas.org; stuart.feldhamer@gmail.com
Subject: Re: Tisha B'Av on Sunday 

 

From: "Stuart Feldhamer" stuart.feldhamer@gmail.com

 

>>The halacha is that the fast starts at shkiah. Why is it that we're
allowed
to fast on Shabbos for 9 Av, especially when Shabbos is docheh 9 Av? Since
Bein Hashmashot is a safeik, why don't we see safeik d'oraita l'chumrah in
the case of oneg Shabbos, and safeik d'rabbanan l'hakeil in the case of
Tisha B'av?<<

>>>>>
Once you have eaten anything that day, you are no longer fasting.  My
husband always drinks some water Shabbos morning before going to shul,  in
case he doesn't get around to kiddush before chatzos, so that he won't be
guilty of "fasting" on Shabbos.

 

Every time you go one hour without food -- especially when your stomach is
already full -- do you call that fasting?!  But even if you were actually
hungry, it would not be called "fasting" if you had eaten earlier that day.



 


--Toby Katz
=============







  _____  

Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read
<http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000
50000000
017>  reviews on AOL Autos.

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On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:14 AM, Rich, Joel <JRich@sibson.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
>  ------------------------------
>   I suppose it depends on how you define prevailing minhag. For example,
> when the gemara says we always follow the opinion of R' X over R'Y, in the
> absence of other circumstances would you say it's OK to follow R'Y because
> the case was not a practical issue till years later? You seem to be arguing
> that when there is no prevailing minhag that it's kol hayashar beinav yaaseh
> but why wouldn't we follow our usual dynamics of psak
>
> The nerot example has always interested me - I'm sure R'RW has some comment
> on how the practice developed to follow the Rambam - I'd love to know
> historically what the actual transition was (I assume at some time they
> followed tosfot opinion in Europe?)
> KT
> Joel Rich
>
>
>
>
>
I really do NOT know why Rema paksens like Rambam over Tosafos in this case.


But let me digress to a larger issue. Some talmiddi mof mine "heard" that
Ashkenazim ALWAYS follow Rema.  Thsat is simply false.

The term Klal means a generality. For computer geeks it is analogous to a
default setting. It is NOT a 100% a hard and fast rule. For some reason,
people take things to extremes, such as
 thinking:
 since we USUALLY follow MB therefore we must ALWAYS follow MB.
I was even wrong when I said Teimanim ALWAYS follow Rambam. They do not and
someone posted a URL to about 40+ documented exceptions.

Amont the hundreds of yet to be posted artciles in my life, One is who is
the TRUE heir to the Rabmam's legacy, the Rema or RY Karo. Ture the Maran BY
follows Rambam MUCH more often in p'sak, but in Hashkafa, Rema's FIRST hagah
has a quote from the Moresh, something the BY rarely quoted. The Rema wa
MUCH more in tune with the Rambam as a hybrid philosopher-Halachisist.

The Rema thus had a high regard for the Rambam. How this minhag followed the
Rambam by the time the Rema rolled around I do not know.

Now a close reading of this Rambam will tell you that the Rambam HIMSELF
paskened agaisnt the prvailing minhag.  [Now here RYKaro is more like Rambam
and REma is less like the Rambam]. Another case where Rambam protested the
prevlaent minhag is with regard to [wrt] birchos hashachar where the Rambam
insists on a more literal Talmudic approach.

I am a big fan of Tosfaos. But when for some reason Tosafos' p'sak was
rejected by Asheknazic tradition I USUALLY favor the tradition. Thus if
Rema, who mostly ruled by Ashkenazic consensus, is against Tosafos, I would
favor the Rema's p'sak.

Now if you read a lot of Darchee Moshe] Especially that of Darchie Moshe
ho'orach] you will see that even Asheknazim did not always agree. with each
other. And there is a lot of lattitude there.

For an example of a really flexible menu approach see Shach and Chochmas Ada
re: when an egg inside the chicken becomes parve [YD 87:4 iirc].  Shach
givess 4 stages, Minhag, Din, ,bedi'avad, nd sha'as hadechak. it is a
classic and hte Chochmas Adam brillinatly sumarizes it in a few lines.  A
major trend in Ashkenaz is more cholices and less-black-and white. Thus
Rambam afaik has nearly zero yeish Omirims. SA a lot more, but Rema MANY
more.
-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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