Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 210

Tue, 03 Jun 2008

• 1. Re: Tearing toilet paper on Shabbos (Michael Kopinsky)
• 2. Re: Safeiq Sefirah (Samuel Svarc)
• 3. Re: D'rabanan vs. D'oraita (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 4. Re: Safeiq Sefirah (Micha Berger)
• 5. Re: Safeiq Sefirah (Micha Berger)
• 6. 30 days or 90 repetitions (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 7. Re: Women in Torah (Michael Makovi)
• 8. Re: D'rabanan vs. D'oraita (Michael Makovi)
• 9. Re: Sign of Strength (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Any problem with reporting as part of a shiur summary (Micha Berger)
• 11. Re: Safeiq Sefirah (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. : Re: pesach sheni [from Hakhel] (SBA)
• 13. Re: [Areivim] 40 Years Ago (Simon Montagu)

On Wed, May 28, 2008 at 9:43 AM, Doron Beckerman <beck072@gmail.com> wrote:

> I think it is if one is going to have to wipe his Ni'a on his sleeve (which
> is problematic on Shabbos anyhow).
>

Huh? What's the problem?


> And for sure if it is going to drip out of his nose it is under kavod
> Habriyos. See Rashi to Shabbos 81b that even having something visibly stuck
> between your teeth is an issue of Kavod Habriyos. RSZA is lenient even on
> taking medicine is such a case when the Ni'a is leaking from his nose and is
> an issue of Kavod Habriyos (brought in a footnote in SSK).
>

Where is this footnote in SSK?

Would the same thing apply to a cough, which is annoying to those around
you?  One shabbos a few weeks ago my allergies were particularly bad, and my
coughing was such that the person sitting in front of me in shul moved to a
different seat.  I think he was being hypersensitive, but according to what
you're saying, it may have been muttar to take Benadryl or something to
solve the problem.

KT,
Michael
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> From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>

> Subject: [Avodah] Safeiq Sefirah

> 

> My 13 yr old boys and I were learning KSA yesterday, and one of them 

> asked the following question:

> 

> According to the KSA, if you are unsure if you counted yesterday or 

> not, you can continue counting with a berakhah. Chasing it down a 

> little, the reasoning seems to be sefeiq sefeiqa -- safeiq whether 

> omer is one mitzvah or many, and even if one mitzvah, safeiq wehther 

> or not you broke the chain.

> 

> So, Zack asked: We know from "mashiv haruach" the rule that if you 

> haven't been saying something 30 days I should assume I didn't say it.

> To the extent that we override safeiq berakhos lehaqeil and require 

> repeating.

 

I think the answer is how "chashuv" the thing is. Similar to Megilas Esther
that can be heard even though the general rule is "drei koli lo...". So to
here, "mashiv haruach" is a daily thing for many months, a person will not
remember. Sefira is (relatively) short and "exciting", a person will
remember. 

 

Another distinction, which might be dependent on whether one davened with a
minyan, is that "MH" is said quietly to oneself, while sefira is a public
production.

 

KT,

MSS 

 

 

 

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R"n Toby Katz commented:
> I've long noticed that vegetarians often become ba'alei teshuva
> or to put it another way, many BTs have a history of having
> been vegetarians.  I have long believed that since they were
> willy nilly keeping kosher, their neshamos were purified and
> were more open to accepting the Torah.

Quite possible. But I think a simpler explanation might be that a
vegetarian-by-choice is also a person who thinks about what he is doing,
and the right/wrong implications of it, rather than simply following his
desires. This means that he is also predisposed to consider other
right/wrong implications of how he is running his life.

Akiva Miller
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On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 03:07:42AM +1000, SBA wrote:
: I once heard a cheshbon (beshem someone) that it is actually 101
: repetitions. I am not too sure how, but it would include Mussaf of YT,
: several Shabosim, RCh etc.

So perhaps it's related to "einah domeh shoneh pirqo 100 pe'amim leshoneh
pirqo 101" (Hillel to Bar Hei-Hei; Chagiga 9b).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 03:07:42AM +1000, SBA wrote:
: I once heard a cheshbon (beshem someone) that it is actually 101
: repetitions. I am not too sure how, but it would include Mussaf of YT,
: several Shabosim, RCh etc.

So perhaps it's related to "einah domeh shoneh pirqo 100 pe'amim leshoneh
pirqo 101" (Hillel to Bar Hei-Hei; Chagiga 9b).

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

In the thread "Safeiq Sefirah", R' Micha Berger quoted his son:
> We know from "mashiv haruach" the rule that if you haven't
> been saying something 30 days I should assume I didn't say it.

Then he amended the question:
> It's not 30 days but 90 repetitions..

R'SBA commented:
> I once heard a cheshbon (beshem someone) that it is
> actually 101 repetitions. I am not too sure how, but it
> would include Mussaf of YT, several Shabosim, RCh etc.

R' Michael Kopinsky tried to calculate the 101 figure, but found the variations of which day of the week Pesach starts to be too difficult.

My approach is much simpler: The "30-day" rule is used for both Mashiv
Haruach and also for Tal Umatar. This is true despite the fact that we say
Tal Umatar less frequently than Mashiv Haruach. The exact numbers are not
important. What *is* important (to me) is that several days of Shabbos will
make such a dent in the exact count, that the question, "Is 96 repetitions
enough?" sounds very irrelevant to me.

I do know that there are some people who sit around on Shmini Atzeres
afternoon, repeating the appropriate phrase a lot of times, such that they
feel that a new chazakah has been established, so that if their mind
wanders during the Amidah in the next month, they can presume they said it
correctly.

But I have also seen poskim who say that this procedure is *not* effective.
I'm sorry that I do not remember who those poskim are, but I'd like to
attempt an explanation of it, and I'll offer the the same explanation two
different ways.

First, from a technical viewpoint: All poskim agree that 30 days works for
both Mashiv Haruach and Tal Umatar. Some poskim suggest an alternate
procedure of reciting Mashiv Haruach (approximately) 101 times, and
reciting Tav Umatar (approximately) 90 times. But I don't know of anyone
who offers an explanation for the 101/90 disparity. Why should 95 work for
Tal Umatar but not for Mashiv Haruach? Until I encounter an explanation, it
will seem to me that the "repetition" procedure is an error; a person needs
*time* to become accustomed to the new text, and throughout halacha, "30
days" is the shiur for becoming accustomed to something.

Second, a personal anecdote: Prior to moving to Elizabeth, I lived for two
years in a much smaller community, where we rarely had more than 25 people
in shul even on Shabbos, and consequently I was called on to be Shliach
Tzibur rather frequently. The shul davened Nusach Sfard, but I adapted to
it rather easily, for whatever reasons, even though I personally daven
Ashkenaz, and all my prior shuls and yeshivos had been Ashkenaz. When I
left that town and came to Elizabeth, and tried davening for the amud in
Nusach Ashkenaz, I was very surprised by how much difficulty I had. My
silent Amidah had always been Ashkenaz with no problem, but my Chazaras
Hashatz kept slipping into Sfrad if I wasn't careful. Eventually, I came to
the conclusion that my mouth had two distinct programs available, one for
quiet mode, and one for loud. My mouth's quiet mode was always programmed
to run in Ashkenaz, but the loud mode was set for Sfard and needed a
conscious effort to be reprogrammed. This 
 experience suggests to me that if a person takes a section of the Amidah,
 and repeats it on Shmini Atzeres over and over and over, it will not
 affect what his mouth does later that day in the quiet of davening Mincha.

My conclusion is that time can adapt one to a new habit, but repetition doesn't work as well.

Akiva Miller

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>> Likely the "good" wife was demure and docile, while
>> the bright and alert and vital woman would have rebelled and been the
>> "bad" wife.
>>  Mikha'el Makovi summarizing Rabbi E. Berkovits

> I don't know how anyone who says Eishes Chayil every week can possibly say
> this.
>
> --Toby Katz

I wonder, how could anyone who says Eishet Chayil, say that women
should go out once or twice a month? How did she buy the wool and
flax, buy a field, sell her finished cloth?

In any case, for those women who had intellectual bents, I wonder how
indeed they survived in days past. My mother, for example, I imagine
would go absolutely insane, almost literally, if she didn't have her
occupation (food safety and analysis at FDA).

Mikha'el Makovi

>The Shulchan Aruch in Yoreh Deah Siman 81 paskens that a Jewish baby
> is allowed to have a non-Jewish wet nurse, however the Shulchan Aruch
> says that you shouldn't do it because the non-kosher food will harm
> the baby spiritually.
>
> R' Marty Bluke

> ... In any case, we
> see clearly from the Ran that non-kosher is objectively poison and
> harmful even if you eat it b'heter.
>
> ....We see clearly that this idea that any non-kosher food is metamtem
> halev, meaning it has intrinsic effects, even if eaten b'heter<<
>
>  R' Toby Katz

These two ideas, were exactly what I was saying I don't hold by.

I might add that I like Rabbi Shelomo Danziger's interpretation of
RSRH, that Rav Hirsch took Kabbalah totally allegorically, contra the
interpretations of Dayan Grunfeld, Jakob Rosenheim, Rabbi Joseph
Elias, etc. We also all know that RSRH loves symbolic/educational
interpretations of mitzvot.

I'd have to look at Horeb and RSRH's Chumash to see what he says about
kashrut per se, i.e. whether it affects your soul intrinsically or
not.

But until then, I will note that at the end of Tazria-Metzorah, and at
the end of Balak, Rav Hirsch interprets tumah and taharah as
educational decrees, and AFAIK, he indicates nothing about intrinsic
effects.

In Bamidbar Rabbah, Parshat Chukat, a gentile asks Rabbi Yohanan about
the ritual of the parah adumah. Rabbi Yochanan makes something up
about magic and hocus-pocus, and the gentile leaves. The students see
through the ruse, and ask for the REAL explanation. Rabbi Yochana
replies, "By G-d, the dead do not defile and the heifer does not
purify; it is all a decree from G-d!". The midrash goes on to quote a
taam mitzvah from another rabbi, so apparently, "chok" does not mean
there is no taam; rather, there IS a taam, and this is davka the
significance of the mitzvah! The mitzvah is purely symbolic and
educational, without any intrinsic spiritual reality.

Mikha'el Makovi

On Thu, May 29, 2008 at 04:24:37PM -0400, cantorwolberg@cox.net wrote:
: Only then will Jerusalem will be what its name means ??? Yeru, Aramaic
: for city, of Shalom, Peace, and also, (since Shalom is one of God's Names)
: [city of] God.

It's a stretch, IMHO, to associate "Yeru" with "Ur" (as in: Ur Kasdim).

Two years ago <http://www.aishdas.org/asp/2006/05/yom-yerushalayim.shtml>
I suggested the name of the city was a portmanteau of Avraham's words,
asher yei'amer hayom "behar Hashem YEIRA'EH" with Malkizedeq melekh
SHALEIM's message of shalom and sheleimus.

> [Parapharsing an idea from RDL:] ... shalom is a time when all the
> nations "will come together in a single union to do Your will with
> a leivav > shaleim, a whole heart." Sheleimus within each heart being
> expressed as sheleimus within humanity as a whole.

> According to R' Aryeh Kaplan, King David unified these two places into
> one city. ("Jerusalem, the Eye of the Universe", pg. 46) But whether
> unified by him or earlier, the Psalmist does describe it as "ke'ir
> shechubrah lo yachdav", taken literally: "a city which is connected for
> Him together." (122:3) The City of David is a place of unity, where Yeru
> and Shaleim connect.

> The call to remind Edom doesn't end with a cry for Divine Justice.
> Although it is that (just look at the next verses!). But it may also be
> seen as a call for them to remember the eventual Yom Yerushalaim, a day in
> which they join the union to serve G-d wholeheartedly. A day when we not
> only hold sovereignty over Jerusalem, not only rebuild the Beis haMiqdash,
> but one in which it serves as a centerpiece, a place where one experiences
> Hashem's over-awing presence, and is moved to work together to serve Him.

> "For from Tzion shall the Torah come, and the Word of Hashem from
> Yerushalaim."
> Bimheira beyameinu, amein!

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 44th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Malchus: What type of justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            does unity demand?

On Fri, May 30, 2008 at 12:50:06PM -0400, Zev Sero wrote:
: Rich, Joel wrote:
: >that the maggid shiur (a well respected talmid chacham) in discussing 
: >whether there is an issue of hasagat gvul singing a song someone else 
: >wrote and copyrighted, said he doesn't believe people would "write songs 
: >that voices never shared" ? ...

: Those who would think it insulting wouldn't recognise the phrase in the
: first place, and so wouldn't learn anything "derogatory" from your
: summary.

How do you picture that conversation going lema'aseh? One makes the
comment, they hear and don't understand it, and they simply ignore
their confusion?

I would think that since the odds that they'll ask for explanation
and put you on the spot are so high, even bringing up the subject
is problematic. Usually avaq LH is where one is likely to be goading
the other into saying LH, it might include a case where one is bound
to be pushing them to goad you, but even if not, I'm failing to see
permissability. Or to see why avaq LH needs its own label when it's
already mesayei'ah. Which is directly linked to why I'm not clear on
why avoiding the formal category would help.

But in any case, if RJR's example comment would be LH if said to a BT
(or someone who simply went from MO to chareidi) who would understand
the comment AND think less of the speaker for it, then I don't think
making the comment is a good idea even to someone who won't understand
it without explanation.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 44th day, which is
micha@aishdas.org        6 weeks and 2 days in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Gevurah sheb'Malchus: What type of justice
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            does unity demand?

> On Tue, Jun 03, 2008 at 03:07:42AM +1000, SBA wrote:
> : I once heard a cheshbon (beshem someone) that it is actually 101
> : repetitions. I am not too sure how, but it would include Mussaf of YT,
> : several Shabosim, RCh etc.

Ligt Mir in Kup that it's a Teshuvas Chasam Sofer...

KT,
MYG

From: Arie 
RGD wrote:
> I, on the other hand, would like to know what source, if any, there is 
> for eating matza on Pesach Sheni.

... and I wonder why they choose the 14th by day, rather than the eve of the
15th. (IIRC, this was raised in the forum in the past and not yet answered)
>>

The Darkei Chaim veSholom (Minhagei haMinchas Elozor) states that it is a
Minhag 'kol hatzadikim talmidei haBesht'. It also says that despite the fact
that achilas korban Pesach was at night - the start of the Mitzva was by day
-  've'ikar hu hahascholo'.

The Minhag Yisroel Torah brings this and more of a similar vein but also
writes that the Maharam Ash (IIRC, a talmid of the CS) and his FIL Rav Dovid
Deutsch had a Minhag of eating Matzos at night.(Lechoreh indicating that the
Minhag is lav davka from talmidei haBesht.)

SBA

On Mon, Jun 2, 2008 at 9:09 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> BTW, what was a magreifah, and could it be related to the bagpipe?
> (Serious answers on Avodah, please.)

Possibly a kind of water-powered organ. See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydraulic_organ


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