Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 142

Wed, 23 Apr 2008

• 1. (no subject) (Seth Mandel)
• 2. Re: Hallel at the seder (Zev Sero)
• 3. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza. (Richard Wolpoe)
• 4. Re: Ta'am of eating matzah (Richard Wolpoe)
• 5. Re: Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza. (Zev Sero)
• 6. Re: (no subject) (Richard Wolpoe)
• 7. Re: Avos uBanim (T613K@aol.com)
• 8. Re: Avos uBanim (Micha Berger)
• 9. Re: Vihgadto Levincho (Doron Beckerman)

I
have sought data in the past from Avodah readers in regards to conundra that I
cannot solve.  I did so once in regard to
sturgeon, but the solution finally came, serendipitously, through some
information provided by R. SBA.  That I
hope to write up shortly.  But it was not
surprising that Avodeans did not have the data, since the information in
question was available almost 200 years ago and had since been forgotten.

But
now I am seeking data from the living memory of Avodeans, and I hope will get
some insight.

The
Shulhan ?Arukh says in Orah Hayyim ?479:1 that one is
required to try to have a zimmun for the seder.  The R?MO adds that this is so that people can
read sections in Hallel responsively, and the Mishna B?rurah explains that
there is no requirement as far as bentching goes, the whole issue is so that Hallel
can be read responsively at the Seder.  That
indeed in the source, from the Tur in this siman, quoting a Medrash.  The R?MO considers this so important that he
allows bringing in someone from the outside who has not been at the rest of the
Seder.  Nor does the ?Arukh haShulhan mention that the
general custom is not to do it.

I confess that, although I have been to lots of different
places and communities, my experience with S?dorim is limited.  Outside of my parents (with my zeide Mandel
present at some) I have been to s?dorim only in 4 other places in my life, and
I have never seen this responsive reading done, outside of by RYBS.  I have also asked someone who is very
knowledgeable about Hungarian customs, and he confirmed that, as far as he
knew, there was no custom to read any part of Hallel responsively in Hungary.  Various pollaks and litvaks have told me the
same.  (RYBS?s practices is no proof,
since it is well known that Briskers had their own ideas about minhogim.) 

So:
does anyone know of any communities where they practiced responsive reading of
Hallel during the Seder?  The only one I know
of is the Teimanim, both the Baladi and Shami, who do responsive reading for
the entire Hallel, as they do in shul.  But
it would be exceedingly strange if the only community that followed the M?habber
and the R?MO were to be the Teimanim, who do not accept the p?sak of the M?habber
and the R?MO as binding?Seth Mandel



_________________________________________________________________
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Seth Mandel wrote:

> The R?MO adds that this is so that 
> people can read sections in Hallel responsively, and the Mishna B?rurah 
> explains that there is no requirement as far as bentching goes, the 
> whole issue is so that Hallel can be read responsively at the Seder.
> [...] I have never seen this responsive 
> reading done, outside of by RYBS.  I have also asked someone who is very 
> knowledgeable about Hungarian customs, and he confirmed that, as far as 
> he knew, there was no custom to read any part of Hallel responsively in 
> Hungary.  Various pollaks and litvaks have told me the same.  (RYBS?s 
> practices is no proof, since it is well known that Briskers had their 
> own ideas about minhogim.)
> 
> So: does anyone know of any communities where they practiced responsive 
> reading of Hallel during the Seder?  The only one I know of is the 
> Teimanim, both the Baladi and Shami, who do responsive reading for the 
> entire Hallel, as they do in shul.  But it would be exceedingly strange 
> if the only community that followed the M?habber and the R?MO were to be 
> the Teimanim, who do not accept the p?sak of the M?habber and the R?MO 
> as binding?

I assume they are talking not about saying the whole hallel responsively,
since most people don't do this even in shul, but about Hodu Lashem and
Ono Hashem, which are said responsively in shul, and in my experience
-- admittedly even more limited than yours -- at the seder.  It never
occurred to me that not everybody does this.

The MB (422:18) also says that if saying hallel alone, and there are
two other people available, one should get them to answer for Hodu
Lashem, even on days when there's no question about the bracha.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Wed, Apr 16, 2008 at 10:48 PM, kennethgmiller@juno.com <
kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:

> R' Micha Berger wrote:
> > If you say that the concept of lechem oni is part of the
> > usual YT concept of se'udah, then [[snipped]] ...
> > However, if you say that they are distinct, then ... one
> > would need a kezayis from each -- the lechem mishneh and
> > the lechem oni.
>
> Are you saying that one is not yotzei Lechem Mishneh unless he eats a
> kezayis of it? That if I have a small piece of the baal habayis's two
> challahs, and then eat some of the sliced bread on the table for the kezayis
> of seudah, that I have not fulfilled the mitzvah of Lechem Mishneh?
>
> Akiva Miller


Ein hachi Name, that was in my earlier post - namely that jsut a small
amound of the hamotzi should be enough and that 2 k'zeisim is not needed,
just a kezyis of al achilas plus some more of hamotzi. But pehraps the
argument is that the "plus some more" itself requires a minimum of  another
k'zayyis, but I am not quite convinced.

Lemashal, If  Imake kiddush on a revi'is of wine, is not that revi'is enough
to create a shi'ur for bracha ahcaronah etc. as well as enough to make
kiddush? IOW can't the one sh'iur handle 2 functions?

OTOH, "ein ossin  mitzos havillos" might require a separate kos [think of
sheva brachos]

At any rate, the idea of eating 2 kzeisim simultaneously imho makes little
sense.  Aderabbo, if you need TWO k'zeisim it makes sense to eat them
SEPARATELY albeit wio a hefsek between them

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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>
> G-d told us to eat only matzah, and so we baked only matzah. But had
> we tried to bake chametz (which, hypothetically, we did not try to do,
> but, hypothetically, had we tried to do...), we wouldn't have had
> time. In other words, G-d told us beforehand not to bake chametz,
> because He already knew we wouldn't have had time. In retrospect, for
> us, it made sense why He commanded us to bake only matzah: viz.,
> that's all we had time for, in retrospect! Therefore, the command was
> given with a certain ta'am already in G-d's Mind but NOT given to us,
> and LATER, the ta'am became apparent to even us.
>
> Mikha'el Makovi


See The Beis Halevi on "Ba'avur Zeh"
IIRC He essentially says the same thing, the mitzva was in anticipation of
the future history




-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> Ein hachi Name, that was in my earlier post - namely that jsut a small 
> amound of the hamotzi should be enough and that 2 k'zeisim is not 
> needed, just a kezyis of al achilas plus some more of hamotzi. But 
> pehraps the argument is that the "plus some more" itself requires a 
> minimum of  another k'zayyis, but I am not quite convinced.

No, it's got nothing to do with that; the question is which matzah
the "al achilat matzah" is on.  Is it on the prusah over which the
hagadah was said, or is it on the shlema.  Since we don't know, we
take a kezayit from each.  Obviously for those who eat from neither one
but from the box, there is no point in eating more than one kezayit.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:23 PM, Seth Mandel <sethm37@hotmail.com> wrote:

>
> The Shulhan 'Arukh says in Orah Hayyim ?479:1 that one is required to try
> to have a zimmun for the seder.  The R'MO adds that this is so that people
> can read sections in Hallel responsively, and the Mishna B'rurah explains
> that there is no requirement as far as bentching goes, the whole issue is so
> that Hallel can be read responsively at the Seder.  That indeed in the
> source, from the Tur in this siman, quoting a Medrash.  The R'MO considers
> this so important that he allows bringing in someone from the outside who
> has not been at the rest of the Seder.  Nor does the 'Arukh haShulhan
> mention that the general custom is not to do it.
>
> I confess that, although I have been to lots of different places and
> communities, my experience with S'dorim is limited.  Outside of my parents
> (with my zeide Mandel present at some) I have been to s'dorim only in 4
> other places in my life, and I have never seen this responsive reading done,
> outside of by RYBS.  I have also asked someone who is very knowledgeable
> about Hungarian customs, and he confirmed that, as far as he knew, there was
> no custom to read any part of Hallel responsively in Hungary.  Various
> pollaks and litvaks have told me the same.  (RYBS's practices is no proof,
> since it is well known that Briskers had their own ideas about minhogim.)
>
> So: does anyone know of any communities where they practiced responsive
> reading of Hallel during the Seder?  The only one I know of is the
> Teimanim, both the Baladi and Shami, who do responsive reading for the
> entire Hallel, as they do in shul.  But it would be exceedingly strange if
> the only community that followed the M'habber and the R'MO were to be the
> Teimanim, who do not accept the p'sak of the M'habber and the R'MO as
> binding?
>
> Seth Mandel
>

Remo states re: hallel on Rosh Hodesh that if you lack a minyan get at lesat
2 others to respond.  This is becaue there is no hiyyuv to say Halle on Rosh
Hodesh, only a minhag,

OTOH, on the 18/21 occasions mentioned in the braisso YACHID [emphasis mine]
gomer es hahaellel]. it would be unlikely that the Hallel in the evening
Seder is amongst these 18/21

Therefore it would make sense that jsut as Rosh Hodesh, one should havea
miinimum of 2 answering.

Question:  Why is Hallel Hagadol called Hallel Hagadol when it is SHORTER
than Hallel mitzrayim?

Answer: the Hallel in the more limited sense is confined to those versus
that elicit the response "ki l'olam Hasdo" which form a choral response.
Apparently with Hallel in general it morphed into the  Shatz saying the 4
lines in Psalm 118  followed by a response of Hodu Lashem as a complete
verse  reesponse.   THAT  is the ikkar "Hallel"

Simlar all of 118 has a  kind of  antiphonic structure  bolstered by
repeated verses when the verse themselves lack an apaprent aniphony. The
entire chapter can be done responsively in this manner but it seems to have
been limited to the above 4 ki l'olams PLUS the 2x4 ono's.

I would surmise the Rmeo is limitting his requirement for response to those
versus embedded in 118. I cannot speak for the mechabber.

As such this dovetails with a long-awaited post showing that the Rmea is one
of the very few who takes the  temr YACHID gomer es Hahallel ina
philogoically literal sense.  That is to say the only heter for saying
Hallel onRoshHodesh is without a yachid. This is PREFERABLY with a minyan of
10 but besha'as Had'chak any 2 will do.

Sphardim pretend that the term Yachid is not in the BRaisso and so cannot
countenance the possibilty of Hallel on Rosh Hodesh iwth a Brahcah.  But
Remo's read is superiro {I don;t know if it his original read or a n
Ashkenazic legacy]

This manifests in many ways:


   1. Saying Halle betzibbur is a must on Rosh Hodesh, optional on the
   18/21 days
   2. the manifestations of omitting Hallel at a beis avel vary between
   Hanukkah and Rosh Hodesh
   3. The bracha on Hallel on Rosh Hodesh is said  by Shatz ONLY as per
   minhag Habad AND the Aruch hashulchan.

 The remaining diffiuclties
1. I have are why say Hallel at all [even bedillug] on the last 6 days of
Pesach.  At least Rosh Hodesh has a Gmara to it.

2. Plus according to my read of Remo's read - dillug should not be required
on Rosh Hodesh BETZIBBUR!  After all if the restriction of 18/21 of Gomrin
is for YACHID only what's the harm if the Tzibbur says whole Hallel on Rosh
Hodesh?

The best answer I have is that the incident in the Gmara with Rav is in
minor dispute with the Braisso and that the Halachah conflated the 2 cases
as if they were not in conflict. This fits the Sephardic model, that Yachid
is a no-op phrase anyway.  Nevertheless it is Chrystal Clear that Rema
respects the Yachid phrase wrt to Hallel on Rosh Hodesh.

Also see the Tosefta re: saying Hallel betzibbur on Passover eve in shul for
those unable to says for themselves.

==================================================================

bottom line if Hallel  Hagadol is BIGGER due to 26 ki l'olam's then the
critera of responsding is primarily those versus constaining ki lo'loam and
that is the reference point for Rema not necesarily the andicent Teimani
version of mlutiple Hall'lukah's as the refrain


-- 
Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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From: R' Akiva Miller _kennethgmiller@juno.com_ 
(mailto:kennethgmiller@juno.com) 

>>In the thread "Vihgadto Levincho", R' SBA asked about "the  father ... and 
his son", while I responded regarding "the parent and  child"....


As far as I know, V'higadta Levincha applies equally to  the father and the 
mother, and in fact, it applies just as strongly to any Jew  above the age of 
bar/bas mitzvah, even if childless, and even if  unmarried.

....Even so, I am curious if perhaps someone, somewhere, might  have written 
an article on this topic. Perhaps there are relevant sources that  someone 
else has seen. Any ideas? Thanks!<<




>>>>>
On the words "veshinantem levanecha" Rashi says, "velo livnosecha" -- i.e.,  
there is no obligation of Torah learning for a daughter.  However on the  
words "vehigadta levincha" Rashi says nothing, so perhaps by implication he is  
saying that this does include daughters as well as sons.
 
There's also the well-known vort about the she'eino yodea lish'ol being the  
child who is too young to ask questions, where it says "At pesach lo" -- "you" 
 in loshon nekeva, suggesting that the mother is the one who should teach the 
 young child about Yetzias Mitzrayim.  
 


--Toby  Katz
=============





**************Need a new ride? Check out the largest site for U.S. used car 
listings at AOL Autos.      
(http://autos.aol.com/used?NCID=aolcmp00300000002851)
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On Wed, Apr 23, 2008 at 02:59:41AM -0400, T613K@aol.com wrote:
: On the words "veshinantem levanecha" Rashi says, "velo livnosecha" -- i.e.,  
: there is no obligation of Torah learning for a daughter...

But, as RAM pointed out, this goes beyond veshinantam levanekha. If
there are no children at the table, the wife is supposed to ask her
husband the 4 kashehs.

So there is clearly a gender-equality to this chiyuv that isn't present
in teaching Torah; even though the format of sippur YM is very much
oriented to be that of talmud Torah.

: There's also the well-known vort about the she'eino yodea lish'ol being the  
: child who is too young to ask questions, where it says "At pesach lo" -- "you" 
:  in loshon nekeva, suggesting that the mother is the one who should teach the 
:  young child about Yetzias Mitzrayim.  

Not really, since the verb is "petach" (lashon zachar). Either we

1- simply acknowledge the grammatical oddity as probably being something
prosaic, like a dropped vowel (atah -> at); or

2- we go midrashic and it must be a woman acting like a man; or

3- the more obvious derashah (as we actually find in haggados) a man
must contact his "feminine side" when teaching.

:-)||ii!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Today is the 3rd day
micha@aishdas.org        in/toward the omer.
http://www.aishdas.org   Tifferes sheb'Chesed: What is perfectly
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            balanced Chesed?

In Derech Sicha pg. 239, R' Chaim Kanievsky is quoted as saying that while
it would seem to make sense that once the son knows all about Yetzias
Mitzrayim there is no longer a Halachah to tell him, it may still be that
there is a Mitzvah at any age, even an Am HaAretz to a Talmid Chacham,
because every time he hears the story something new will be added,

The one conversing with him added based on the Ramban that the yesod of our
Emunah is the tradition handed down from father to son.

RCK added that the Steipler would learn with him consistently, stating that
he wished to fulfill the Mitzvah of teaching his son Torah.
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