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Volume 25: Number 138

Wed, 16 Apr 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 17:10:14 +1000
Re: [Avodah] levayah minhagim

From: Arie Folger < >
Our Kehillah has been in uninterrupted operation for more than 200 years. 
Consequently, our cemetery traditions are old, as well. Men and women remain
separate at funerals, with women staying further away from the grave while
the men fill it. Then, once the men retreat, after the shurah, which is only
for men by men, women are free to come to the grave.

Is that, which you describe as the American custom of yore perhaps not the
way it was done way back, after all, but rather the compromise that came
about when Orthodoxy was still insecure? (This is a sociological argument
and not a halakhic one)

That is exactly as we do it here. Obviously this was the Minhag in many
parts of Europe.


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Message: 2
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 18:33:54 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Denying that Chazal are Oral Torah is Kefira?


For example, he is quoted in the same letter as saying that we know our
sifrei Torah are NOT the original text (on a spelling level; as per R'
Meir's "yeseiros vecheseiros"). They took the majority of three sefarim
to reconstruct the Torah after churban bayis. The result didn't match
any of the 3 originals. And yet, if we were to find Ezra's or MRAH's
seifer Torah, we would have to use ours and not switch to theirs.

That's not an issue of having the historically correct girsa, it's an
issue of the processes defining correctness.

SheTir'u baTov!

Would you say this statement would hold true even if Sanhedrin were
Joel Rich
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Message: 3
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:30:19 -0400
Re: [Avodah] WTG

On Tue, Apr 8, 2008 at 6:02 PM, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:

> And thus RRWolpoe's notion that one of the greatest things C lacks in
> their decisionmaking is yir'as Shamayim has some truth. When motivated
> to find what I find good rather than what Hashem finds good, the system
> is badly abused. (Although there are more blatant problems in C legal
> process.)
> Tir'u baTov!
> -Micha

Tangentially I was on SOY 1974-1976 and the BIG issue of women coming to the
Purim  Party came up.

It was a REALLY big political hot potato and I gave a very serious speech on
the topic.  My salient point was probably missed by all because the righies
wanted to asser and th lefties wanted to be mattir but I called for one sole
[soul?] criteirum viz:
"What is best for PURIM"

I simply lacked the hubris to decide what is the mostly good for God or
Israel at large. I only pleaded that the voters decide on the ONE issue what
is best to make Purim the best at YC/YU. Period.

Also teagntially I once got a she'eilah from a congregant:
"is it true that they can keep my son out of a Jewish Cemetery?"

I never answered THAT question. I asked a few more questions and found out
that he was with-holding a GET from his wife!  I completely demurred from
responding and inveighed over and over again to the fellow's Mom - "Why
isn't he giving her a GET?"

Remember the Soloveichik [Rav Chaim or his father?] story about 4 kossos on
milk?  Sometimes the shei'lah need NOT be addressed directly.

A friend of mine wnated to know about making up p'suki d'imra during hazaras
hashtaz. [BTW Aruch hashulchan says  making it up is assur anyway] he asked
me I said No way Jose!  one MUST listen to hazaras hashatz! he then asked a
Dayyna at Breuer's who said that as long as 10 were definitely listening to
Hazaras Hashatz it was OK, I was a bit flabbergasted but what can I say?

I once Asked Rav Alpert ZTL about davening Ma'ariv Saturday night:  Do we
need to START after tzeis or FINISH after Tzeis?  He never was 100%
committed but DID say there are many reasons to START after tzeis.  [perhaps
kri'as shema is one reason] at any rate this can be tough during the summer,
but he did not want to be meikel. AS we know the minimum halacha is a minyan
MAY daven after plag, but he wasn't going there.

A local Rav gave a teshuva to an uncle of mine:  kashering a dishwshwer for
pesach is OK but NOT ffrom milk to meat and vice versa.

RMF in IM TWICE says the exact opposite. I tried to convince my uncle to
heed RMF and NOT the local Rav, Go figure, but I was only a young bachur at
that time...

I'll end on a very personal embarrassment. I offered to kasher an oven on a
goods/services auction on behalf of the Hebrew Academy of Greater Hartford.
Someone bid for my services and pledged $$$. I then asked my rebbe that
year, R. Yosef Weiss Shlita "how can I kasher an oven for Pesach?"  He
answered: "You can't!"  Now I was bound by a pesak of my own rebbe and I had
a VERY hard time convincing people that I was not trying to dodge my
original offer but I really was stuck! It was a real embarrassment for me.

I later went to my Rebe muvhak "Rav Gorelick" later on and he seemed to
think that my sevara of heter bala was reasonable and that it might be OK to
kasher an oven after all. [he himself used one of those separate ovens that
works on TOP of the stove] But of course I would not go against a pesak at
that point EVEN if Rav Gorelick had say it was 100% OK.

Anyway pesak can be a very tricky thing at times.

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 4
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 15 Apr 2008 22:35:03 -0400
Re: [Avodah] levayah minhagim

Re: Shura

I do the same Shura for men and women.

I do my best to line up men in one row and the women in the other row and
have the aveilim pass thru.

KAJ/Breuer's does not let women at the gravesite. I know they are not much
into Zohar so I suspect the reason is otherwise. My hypothesis is that once
upon a time a woman miscarrried  at a burial [and I am guessing  the same
holds true for excluding women from shechita]

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 5
From: "Marty Bluke" <marty.bluke@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 15:58:17 +0300
Re: [Avodah] Halakhos of a US Governor

R' Simon Mantagu asked:
<Are there shu"tim that address the specific case of the sovereign of the UK?

R' Shternbuch discusses the issue in Teshuvos V'Hanhagos. He also
discusses democratically elected leaders. I believe that he says (it
has been a while since I saw this inside) that you don't make a
Beracha on a democratically elected leader because the fact that he
can thrown out of office by the people shows a lack of malchus.
Another reason he gives is that people like the President of the US,
etc. don't dress or act differently then the common man again
betraying a lack of malchus. R' Ovadya Yosef also discusses the issue.

The Poskim quote from the early acharonim that you make the beracha
for a ruler who has the power "l'hamis o l'hachayos", they are not
sure whether it is either or or he needs the power to do both.

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Message: 6
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:32:45 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza.

I figured this was the flipside of the shitah to only use two matzos,
not 3. Mima nafshach:

If you say that the concept of lechem oni is part of the usual YT
concept of se'udah, then
(1) the oni should mean that mishneh lekhem should be incomplete rather
than whole -- and not a third matzah; and
(2) one kezayis should be sufficient, since there is only one mitzvah.
It's like a regular Shabbos where we don't hold you need to take a
kezayis from each of the mishneh lechem.

However, if you say that they are distinct, then:
(1) mishneh lechem must be sheleimim, as usual, and the broken matzah
must be a third matzah; and
(2) one would need a kezayis from each -- the lechem mishneh and the
lechem oni.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             The Maharal of Prague created a golem, and
micha@aishdas.org        this was a great wonder. But it is much more
http://www.aishdas.org   wonderful to transform a corporeal person into a
Fax: (270) 514-1507      "mensch"!     -Rabbi Israel Salanter

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Message: 7
From: rebshrink@aol.com
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 10:37:10 -0400
[Avodah] Co-education in general society

In Joel Rich's e-mail he speaks of an apparent suggestion by RJJ to have a
society with totally separate domains for men and women.?? You can find
just such a society in Saudi Arabia where women may not talk directly to a
man not her husband even while shopping.?? She must always be accompanied
when going outside her home by a male relative.?? Besides the obvious abuse
and inequlity such a system fosters, i would suggest that we can not create
as sexually divided a society, even without the abuse, without violating
Chukas Hagoyim.?? For Moslem countries these sexual separations are very
much part of their Chukim, so we must be very careful which we "copy", if
we don't already observe them.?? Remember, we no longer send flowers?to
Ashkenazik funerals because of Chukas Hagoyim.? How much more careful
should we be in this gender area of real goyishe Chukim that another
religion follows.

Kol Tov,

Stu Grant
(By the way, Toby, when I lived in Hollywood, Fl. I used to frequent you husband's store.)
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Message: 8
From: Arie Folger <afolger@aishdas.org>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 20:13:59 +0200
Re: [Avodah] western wall

RET wrote:
> 4. I have doubts that when Herod did this wall e employed only Jews
> who went to the mikveh each day

Do you want the government of Israel or the relevant authority to stoop so low 
as to follow Herod's lead?

(Let's just remember that, prior to renovating the BhM, Herod killed as many 
of the 'hakhmei Yisroel as he could get his hands on. It is doubtful that he 
did teshuvah - his renovation project was more likely to placate his subjects 
and to guarantee that he is remembered not only for his crimes. KNLAD.)

Arie Folger

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Message: 9
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 08:40:56 -0700 (PDT)
[Avodah] B'Din Heseiba L'Ikuva

Yesterday, I published a Lomdusdik Shtickle Torah on my blog pertaing to
Pesach. I got exatly one comment. I thought I would run it by this august
body and see if anyone likes it as much as I did. It is based on the Torah
of RYBS as redacted in Harirei Kedem. I hope I did it justice. Here it is:
  One of the important Mitzvos is that of the rabbinic requirement of
  Heseiba (reclining) while one eats Matzah or drinks wine. The Shulchan
  Aruch (472:7) Paskins: One who is required to recline while eating and
  drinking and does not do so is not Yotzei - he has not fulfilled the
  requirement. He must eat or drink again while reclining.

HaGaon, Rav Shlomo HaKohen of Vilna (Cheshek Shlomo) asks why this is
necessary. Let one simply skip eating Maror and go straight to Korech - the
Matzah/Maror sandwhich. He can then fulfill his reclining requirement by
eating it B?Heseibah and be Yotzeh both the requirement of eating Matzah in
the reclining position and the requirement of eating Maror simultaneously.

The reason that one cannot eat Matzah and Marror together in the first
place is based on the Gemarah Pesachim (115A - Tosphos and Rishonim).
Matzah is a D?Oraisa - a biblical commandment. In our day Maror is only a
D?Rabbanan - a rabbinic requirement. The rabbinic requirement of Maror is
becomes a Reshus ? a non required but permitted act in relation to the
D?Oraisa of Matzah. By eating them together - the D?Rabbanan of Maror will
then void the D?Oraisa of Matzah.

But once one has eaten Matzah without reclining ? all that is left is the
D?Rabbanan of eating it while reclining. Matzah and Maror are now
equalized. Both are now D?Rabbanan. The D?Rabbanan of Maror cannot void the
D?Rabbanan of eating Matzah while reclining.

In a related Gemarah (Rosh Hashana - 28B) we are told that if one is forced
by others to eat Matzah one has fulfilled his requirement - according to
opinion in the Gemarah that Mitzvos do not require Kavana -intent. Here too
the question arises: How can one be Yotzei? Again, there was no reclining?
And even if he was forced to recline, doing so under duress is not Derech
Cheirus - the way of free men - which s the whole point of reclining.
Futhermore, according to Rishonim who say that one cannot be Yotzei eating
the Korban Pesach, Matzah, and Maror without saying the three paragraphs of
Pesach, Matzah, and Maror, what about the fact that he didn?t say those
three required paragraphs?

The Mitzvah of reciting Pesach, Matzah, and Maror is explained in a
Mishnah. It is based on the Pasuk of V?Amaretm Zevach Pesach ? say the
Pesach sacrifice. Tosephos connects Matzah and Maror to the Korban Pesach?
and Rabbenu Chananel points out that contained within the Mitzvah of Matzah
is the Mitzvah of Lechem Oni SheOnen Alav Devarim Herbeh - ?bread?upon
which many things are answered.

There are then two distinct requirements Matzah: The Mitzvah of ?B?Erev
Tochlu Matzos? which is primarily the eating of the Matzos and the Mitzvah
of Lechem Oni upon which many things are said which requires an act of
saying the appropriate paragraph.

Eating the Korban Pesach has similar aspects. There is the requirement from
the Pasuk of of VeOchlu Es HaBasar BaLailah HaZeh ? and eat the meat on
this night, and the requirement of VeAmartem Zevach Pesach.

These Mitzvos are tied together with the Mitzvah of Sipur Yitzias Mitzrayim
via an act - as indicated by Rashi and the Rashbam. It is the act which
gives the indication of Geula - redemption.

And it is for that reason that Matzah requires the act of Heseibah. Just as
the Rambam explains that dipping the Maror into Charoses is the act by
which Maror is reminds us of the mortar. In all three cases- The Korban
Pesach, Matzah, and Maror, this is how Sipur Yetzias Mitzrayim is

Sipur Yitzias Mitzrayim is tied into each one of those three requirements.
Therefore if one is forced to eat Matzah, one is only Yotzei the ?B?Erev
Tochlu Matzos? but not Yotzei the Lechem Oni SheOnen Alav Devarim Herbeh.

It appears from this that the two Chiuvim are independent. One is Yotzie
each independently even sans the other. It is possible to be Yotzei B?Erev
Tochlu Matzos even though one was not Yotzei the Sipur Yitzias Mitzrayim
that is tied into it. So when one is forced to eat Matzah one is Yotzei
B?Erev Tochlu Matzos but not Yotzei Lecham Oni SheOnen Alav Devarim Herbeh
because one did not say Pesach Matzah and Maror.

Similar to that is the case of Heseibah - the basis of which is Sipur
Yitzias Mitzrayim and is tied into the Mitzvah of Matzah. When eaten
without Heseibah, one must eat it again with Hesiebah to be Yotzei the
Sipur tied into it.

So in a case where one forgets to recline after one first eats Matzah? if
he then eats Matzah again with Maror, he was already Yotzei the basic
eating of ?B?Erev Tochlu Matzos?. He just hasn?t yet been Yotzei the Lechem
Oni of Sipur Yitzias Mitzrayim. So as far as the eating itself goes, it is
entirely a Reshus with respect to the Maror whose basic eating requirement
is still unfulfilled. It is only the Sipur that is missing and that is
unrelated to Maror.

Based on this understanding we can now answer why Rav Shlomo HaKohen?s
solution won?t work. The primary mitzvah of B?Erev Tochlu Matzos was
already fulfilled. The second eating is a din in Sipur which makes it a
total ?Reshus?with respect to Maror which is a still a Chiuv D?Rabbanan. By
eating them together, the Maztah of Reshus now comes and voids the eating
of the Maror.

Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/
Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.  Try it now.
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Message: 10
From: Akiva Blum <ydamyb@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 21:29:23 +0300
[Avodah] Eating Two Kezeisim of Matza for Motzi-Matza

 Raffy  Davidovich wrote:

>>PS As an aside, would the Shulchan's Oruch's preference for swallowing both
kezeisim simultaneously disprove the Noda Beyehudah and Chazon Ish's shiurim
right off the bat?!<<

The Steipler in Shiurin shel Torah chap.8 par. 9:

Behold, the Chasam Sofer and Beis Ephraim ask on the shiur of the Tzla"ch
from Yoma 60 that the beis habliah cannot hold more than a chicken's egg,
and at least the size of an egg is the food than can be eaten at one time.
And if the eggs at the time of Chazal were double those of ours, how could
it be possible that the beis habliah could hold a size like this? This was
already answered by Maran ZTzLLH"H in Kuntras HaShiurim that an egg is
without it's shell, and to increase by double [betashbarto], it is only
nessessary  to add from outside about a fifth and the egg is eaten mashed
(as the Magen Avraham writes siman 475:4 in the name of the Mordechai) and
the swollowing continues and is considered food eaten at one time, since it
is without interuption (this must be, LAD, for if not, even an egg of our
times is apoarently impossible to swollow at one time, so is evident from
nedarim chap.6 egg of turmita) and there nothing strange at all if the
amount of an agg has increased
  by a fifth on it's outer surface.

Ad kan leshono.


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Message: 11
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 16 Apr 2008 18:01:17 -0400
Re: [Avodah] western wall

> 3. This is an outer restraining wall
> R' Eli Turkel

Good question. In the popular consciousness, the Kotel is holy, but
k'halacha, is there any true significance to it? I would think that it
is just a stam a bunch of stones that just happen to hold up har

Mikha'el Makovi


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