Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 75

Sun, 17 Feb 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:23:15 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch

kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:

> (At home, we usually have milchig for the second night of yom tov,
> except at the seder of course, when we move it to lunch.)

Of course?  Having milchigs at the seder seems rather unusual, but
I'm not aware of a din that would prevent it.  Many years ago my
sister-in-law's sister and her husband spent Pesach in the Netherlands
and were invited to someone for the seder; they were astonished when
after the egg had been consumed, out came Shulchan Orech - in the form
of cheese!  What's more, their host seemed surprised at their surprise;
I don't know how common a milchige seder is in the Netherlands, but
apparently this host didn't think it was that unusual.  The Dutch are
proud of their cheeses, and I guess for them this is the ultimate in
simchas yomtov or something.

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

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Message: 2
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:57:46 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch

T613K@aol.com wrote:

>> But what is the halachic standard for ?kavod shabbos??  Is
>> meat?any kind of meat?the standard? .... I would be surprised if you
>> could anywhere in the Shulchan Arukh where it says that only roast
>> chicken and/or brisket can bring kavod to the Shabbat table.
>> ....Also, is it kavod-dik to stuff yourself with chicken and
>> brisket, when all that your body needs/wants is a piece of gefillte
>> fish and challah?

> The standard is basar vedagim.  If there is not some kind of fish AND 
> some kind of meat, your Shabbos meal is lacking.  The fish can be 
> herring from a jar, or tuna salad, though the gold standard is gefilte 
> fish.

I assume this is tongue in cheek.  What makes gefilte fish the "gold
standard"?  Yes, it's what most Ashkenazim have and expect, but some
don't.  My parents rarely have gefilte fish; usually they have grilled
fish on Friday night.  What's more, they often skip fish altogether at
lunch, and go straight from hamotzi to the cholent.

> The meat at lunch can be cold chicken (thanks to Chazal who were 
> kind enough to make chicken fleishig, for this very purpose).

Huh?  I hope this is tongue in cheek (both of which are fleishig

> Or the meat can be cold cuts.  The gold standard is cholent.

Well, only if "cholent" is read broadly to mean "hot food".  Nor
must the cholent be fleishig; my bobbe AH's cholent was pareve,
with prunes to give it a meaty flavour.

> The hot food shows that you are not a Sadducee or a Karaite.

And yet Rebbi did not have hot food on Shabbos.  Somehow nobody
suspected him of such tendencies.  (Though if the Tzedokim disappeared
after the churban, and the Karaim didn't start until the 8th century,
perhaps in Rebbi's day this heresy didn't exist, so there wasn't any
need to demonstrate defiance of it.)

When we lived in a small flat, there would be several weeks a year on
which my mother would decree that it was too hot to have a fire going
all Shabbos, so we had no cholent *or* tea.  Only when we moved into
a house did we start having cholent every Shabbos, summer and winter.

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                                                  - Clarence Thomas

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Message: 3
From: "Jonathan Baker" <jjbaker@panix.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 15:08:21 -0500 (EST)
[Avodah] Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch

Akiva Miller:

> I have absolutely no problem with a family who decides for themselves
> that this is the sort of Shabbos that they like to have. But let's not
> fall into the trap which Adam and Chava fell into, of confusing the
> actual law and the personal choice. In the case at hand, let's make
> sure we understand what is the actual law, and what is the personal
> choice. As far as I know, the Kavod Shabbos does demand that our food
> and clothing be better than during the week, but there is no objective
> definition of this -- it all depends on the circumstances. A t-shirt
> could be very Shabbosdik for a person who normally wears a totally
> sleeveless undershirt. I see nothing about a piece of boiled chicken
> which makes it intrinsically more Shabbosdik than some blintzes or (on
> Yom Tov) a fresh matza brei.

Let me point out that mac-and-cheese for us is not some simple thing
that we make all the time (we're actually fleishig or pareve most of
the time at dinner).  It takes 3 pots, and a lot of scrubbing after-
wards (make the cheese sauce, boil the pasta, bake the resulting thing,
often with string beans or tuna fish added, in a glass pan, and then I
have a lot of scrubbing to do).  It's not "open a box, toss into pot,
add water, cook".

So if effort is a measure of kovod Shabbos, there's a lot of kovod 
Shabbos going on.  I was really just asking about the technical issue
of whether the cheese is davar gush or davar lach.  Seems we have a
fair rationale for considering the whole thing a davar gush, hence 

> I know a family where they have the exact same food every single
> shabbos. The same recipe for the soup. The same style of chicken.
> The same side dishes every week for decades. It's not my style, but
> it is what *they* like to do, and for *them* it is VERY Shabbosdik.
> Sort of like a security blanket, perhaps. Once you've been doing
> something long enough, it feels un-Shabbosdik to change it. Perhaps
> this is what RTK meant by saying that she prefers dairy, but insists
> on meat for Shabbos. If an individual wants to define Kavod Shabbos
> that way for him/herself, that is fine. But don't confuse subjective
> preferences with objective definitions.

Huh, that's what my wife grew up with.  They may not have been kosher,
or shomer shabbos, but every Friday night they had the same chicken
dish, skinless breaded chicken.  She made it for us for the first time
last week.  It's nice, and a nice change from the way we've been doing
the shabbos chicken for the past few years (since the gout debacle - she
found it's nice to put different combinations of spices under the skin
and then roast it), but we like variety, so the same thing every week
doesn't wash for us today.

As for lunch, we almost never make cholent.  Neither of us grew up
on it, so we don't particularly like it, and it's never any good
made in small quantities (tends to dry up), and we don't want to
waste a large quantity.  So we reheat, to show we're not Tzedukim.
We also have hatmanized coffee (concentrate, from a thermos, with
some hot water added to thin it out).
> > We were once guests of people who served milchigs for a yom tov
> > lunch (not Shavuos) -- much to our surprise.  I would have been
> > much too shy to say anything, but my husband asked the hostess
> > if she had a piece of cold chicken in the fridge or something
> > else fleishig he could eat. Ever since then when we get invited
> > out for a meal, my husband always tells me to make sure they're
> > serving fleishigs.
> The exact opposite happened to us. We went to friends for a three-day
> yom tov (Shabbos, Sunday, Monday), and were going crazy with the
> monotony of the same meat over and over. So for lunch on the last
> day, despite Mr. Host's preference for meat yet again, my wife and
> Mrs. Host insisted on preparing a very nice dairy meal. And ever
> since then, she checks with the hostess before we go away for yom
> tov. (At home, we usually have milchig for the second night of yom
> tov, except at the seder of course, when we move it to lunch.)

Debbie's reaction to Toby's story above: She can imagine the hostess
yelling "What!  You want to trafe up my whole nice dairy kitchen and
dining room?  You can go eat in the corner over there!  Inconsiderate

We tend to have one dairy lunch each two-day Yom Tov, just because meat
after meat after meat just gets too heavy.  It's something nice, but
relatively light, e.g. cheese omelette.  And no, that's not something
we cook every day either, our breakfast tends to be cold cereal and milk
and fruit.
> It is interesting to me how the milchig - vs - fleishig Shabbos meal is  
> another one of those sociological things that fall along a LW-RW Orthodox  divide. 
>       ...    for RW Orthodoxy to be more formal, LW more  informal.

Huh.  I don't think of it as an Orthdoxy thing.  Maybe that's part of it:
that style is, for the RW, driven by their perception of Orthodoxy, while
for the LW, it's driven by the individual, as long as it fits within
halachic parameters.   With the implicit notion that the RW give their
personal style the imprimatur of Orthodoxy, thereby claiming  greater 
authenticity for it, regardless of whether Orthodoxy or family tradition
or personal preference is the real motivating factor.  Just as I may not
be a "typical" LW Orthodox person, I don't see Toby as a "typical" RW
Orthodox person, neither in background, nor in attitudes.


> A couple of people wrote me off list to ask why it was OK to embarrass  our 
> hosts or to say that asking the hostess for something not on the menu is rude.

Aha, so it wasn't just Debbie's reaction.
        name: jon baker              web: http://www.panix.com/~jjbaker
     address: jjbaker@panix.com     blog: http://thanbook.blogspot.com

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Message: 4
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:48:13 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch

There's a family I used to eat with back in America, that one time,
for the day meal, the wife simply dug through the fridge and pulled
out whatever she found and that was our lunch.

Now, I honestly don't know whether she had prepared these davka for
the sake of Shabbat and stuck them in the fridge for a cold meal, or
whether she really did simply pull out whatever was there. All I can
say is what I saw.

But, I can just as honestly say it was extremely good - when you're
eating by a professional cook (which she is), I suppose cold
fridge-pullings are as good as everyone else's hot planned menus. So
for me, there was definitely no question of kavod Shabbat.

(And lest anyone kvetch about cold food, remember Rebbi serving
Antoninus cold food on Shabbat?)

But what about her? For her, the food was surely inferior to what she
could have prepared if she had planned a menu! So where's the kavod
Shabbat? I'm going to guess that for a professional cook, taking
Shabbat off from cooking IS kavod Shabbat!

Anyone agree or disagree? I have no sources for what I just said.

As an aside, I remember the time that I was at someone's house by
night, and when the wife checked the chicken, she discovered it had
gone rotten, and we had nothing to eat. So what did we do? Lots and
lots of side dishes (three or four types of kugel, two or three
salads, etc.), and in lieu of the chicken, we opened a few cans of
baked beans and precooked hot dog type Vienna sausage thingies, and
make a whatever you call that concoction. Very good.

And there's always bread. When you eat in a yeshiva without chumus
because of Sefaradi students who can't eat Israeli chumus or techina
because of bishul akum (Arabs), eating at someone's house with bread
and chumus is a very special treat.

Mikha'el Makovi

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Message: 5
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 14:05:29 -0500
[Avodah] Halachah from Zemiros (was: Hot Cheese for Shabbat

R' Jonathan Baker:
> OTOH, RYBS does talk about using piyutim as halachic sources.  The
> yotzer for Shabbat Hagadol expresses at least one opinion which is at
> odds with current practice; it's been a long time since I looked at
> it, so I don't remember what it was, but RRW could probably tell you.
> And IIRC Atah Conanta vs. Amitz Coach exhibit divergent traditions
> about
> Temple practice.  But zmiros seem a lot more random, like Lehrer's "The
> Elements" or the Animaniacs' song about the 50 States, grouping things
> for rhyme or rhythm.

Iyun Tefillah brings a R'ayah from Kol Mekadesh Shevi'i that the Minhag
originally was to say the entire Pasuk of Bereishis 1:31 at the beginning of
the Friday night Kiddush. But I think you are right - the Yotzros were,
IIRC, specifically written to remind everyone of the Halachos pertaining to
that time of the year, unlike the Zemiros which are written to praise
Hashem, Shabbos, and the Jews.
(BTW, I wrote up the Iyun Tefillah and the related Chasam Sofer in A Daily
Dose of Torah (Series One), volume 13, page 202 - for those of you who have
access to it...)


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Message: 6
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:34:51 +0200
Re: [Avodah] Tetzaveh "Be Careful What You Wish For"

> It seems strange to me that for someone who was considered to be
> the most humble Biblical character of all time, had the chutzpah to
> say to the Almighty: "If you don't forgive them, then count me out." It
> sounds like a threat.
> ri

Maybe it was a threat. Moshe knew that he was a tzadik, and he said to
Hashem, "Maybe they deserve to be wiped out, but I sure don't! If you
wipe them out deservedly, you'll have to wipe me out (undeservedly)
too, and You can't do that!". It's similar to an explanation I once
read of how praying for someone else works: "Hashem, maybe he deserves
to be troubled, punished, etc., but do I deserve to be troubled by his

Additionally, it shows not so much chutzpah as it does selflessness.
Moshe lived for the people. He tells Hashem how he is basically our
mother and has to carry us around like he bore us. He tells us how he
never took a single prerogative for being king. Chazal tell us that he
ceased relations with his wife for the sake of prophesy (and this
prophesy was for the sake of the *nation's* Torah). So Moshe is
telling Hashem, "If you wipe them out, I have no more reason to exist,
and I won't want to exist!"

Mikha'el Makovi

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Message: 7
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:54:53 EST
Re: [Avodah] Tetzaveh "Be Careful What You Wish For"

From: _cantorwolberg@cox.net_ (mailto:cantorwolberg@cox.net) 

>>It  seems strange to me that for someone who was considered to be
the most humble  Biblical character of all time, had the chutzpah to 
say to the Almighty: "If  you don't forgive them, then count me out." <<

"Chutzpa"?  This seems to me a perverse way of looking at one of the  most 
poignant pesukim in the whole Torah.
"Moshe, I will destroy the Jewish people and start all over again with  you 
and your children.  Your name will be glorified and you will be the  Avraham, 
Yitzchak and Yakov of a new people who are starting fresh."
"Ribono shel olam, I don't want that honor and that glory.  I just  want you 
to please forgive your children.  Please, don't wipe them out --  wipe me out 
instead.  Please, I don't want the glory and the honor, I don't  want to be in 
Your book -- if my people -- YOUR people -- are going to be  destroyed."
It was the ultimate in self-effacement -- a man who was closer to Hashem  
than any other human being in history, a man whose name is written throughout  
the holiest Book in history -- willing to let his memory and his name be erased  
and forgotten, or to put it another way, unwilling to be remembered and  
glorified by Hashem if at the same time his fellow Jews -- those  stubborn, 
recalcitrant, impossible sinners -- were not going to be forgiven  by Hashem.  I 
don't know where else in the Torah you see, in such simple  and heartfelt words, 
the depth of Moshe's love for his people and the extent of  his humility.  
"Mecheini nu misifrecha" -- "Erase me, please, from Your  book."  Like a child 
talking to his father, such simple language, but so  full of heart.


--Toby  Katz

**************The year's hottest artists on the red carpet at the Grammy 
Awards. Go to AOL Music.      
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Message: 8
From: "M Cohen" <mcohen@touchlogic.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 13:50:39 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Clever collector

On an interesting note, I told your question to a friend and he told me a
very similar case that truly happened to some he knows.

A carpenter was owed $2000 for work performed and was continually delayed in
getting his payment by the baalabas.

When he finally (after a year) got a check, he went to cash it immediately.

The teller (whom he knew) told him that he c/t cash it because there was
only $1800 in the acnt. 

On the spot, he deposited $200 in the acnt and then cashed the check.

btw, in this case (since the money was truly owed) it was certainly mutar.

Mordechai Cohen

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Message: 9
From: Moshe Shulman <mshulman@ix.netcom.com>
Date: Fri, 15 Feb 2008 16:31:53 -0500
Re: [Avodah] Kabbalah's Legitimacy

At 01:39 PM 2/15/2008, you wrote:
>I don't know why no one else responded to you, but I would find it
>difficult to reply to someone who states "*I* disagree" with the Rambam,
>RSRH et al.

While I find it difficult to reply to one who 'disagrees' with the Ari ZT'L.

Moshe Shulman   outreach@judaismsanswer.com 718-436-7705
Judaism's Answer:  http://www.judaismsanswer.com/

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Message: 10
From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 21:56:33 -0500
[Avodah] thought re tonight's RYReisman shiur

Hearing RYR talk about "galus m'chaperes avon," I couldn't help thinking of
one "'prav'ing galus" example he didn't mention: CHaBaD shlichim.

May all hol'chei d'rachim merit to have their t'filos answered.

Gut Voch, Gut Chodesh, and all the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Message: 11
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 17 Feb 2008 01:11:20 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Hot Cheese for Shabbat Lunch

(Note: This post focuses on meat and simcha. For those who consider simcha
and oneg differently, please consider this post only in a Yom Tov context,
not Shabbos.)

R"n Toby Katz wrote:
> /Maybe/ you could get away with something very chashuv --
> salmon and brie? -- but really it should be basar vedagim
> vechol mat'amim.

I responded:
> Sources, please? (Other posters have already pointed out
> that we don't pasken from zemiros.)

Over Shabbos, I realized that I was not clear here.

I do acknowledge that many writers over the ages have written positively
about having meat on Shabbos and Yom Tov. But it is not clear to me whether
they mean that the halacha objectively requires us to eat meat, or whether
they are simply speaking subjectively, that they have personally found meat
to be a food which is enjoyable and enhances their meal.

Some poskim write that "Ayn simcha elah b'basar" refers specifically to
Basar Shelamim. I am confident that these poskim can point to specific
pesukim which define this objectively. (Probably "v'samachta b'chagecha",
but I'm not sure.) But my understanding is that we don't pasken this way,
and Basar Shelamim is obviously not an option for us anyway.

Others hold that "Ayn simcha elah b'basar" refers even to Basar Taavah, but
I do not know if they can prove this with any pasuk, and I suppose that
this is what this whole discussion boils down to: Do these poskim have some
sort of limud to prove this prescription, or is merely a personal
observation and suggestion on how to accomplish simcha without shelamim?

After writing and rereading all the above, I realized that If I'd post it
as is, I'd be guilty of a pet peeve I have about many other posts: Namely,
posters whoh quote a certain source without actually bothering to check
that source. So I looked up "V'samachta b'chagecha" in the Torah Temimah,
and was pretty surprised by what I found. Check it out in Devarim 16, pasuk
14, se'if 63. He seems to hold that the pasuk does indeed prescribe meat
for simcha even nowadays. I stand corrected.

But even according to that, I do not see that every single meal on Yom Tov
would have to be fleishig, but that once during the course of the holiday
ought to be enough.

Akiva Miller
Free information - Learn to Quit Smoking. Click now!

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Message: 12
From: Cantor Richard <cantorrichard@cox.net>
Date: Sat, 16 Feb 2008 18:57:24 -0500
[Avodah] Ki Sisa Whose Face Anyway?

> There seems to be a contradiction in next week's Torah portion. In  
> the first instance it says that "God would speak to Moses face to  
> face, as a man would speak to his fellow..." (33:11). Unlike other  
> prophets, Moses did not need an intermediary and was fully conscious  
> when God spoke to him. However, just a short 9 verses later it says:  
> "...You will not be able to see My face, for no human can see My  
> face and live" (33:20). There are various explanations for this. The  
> one that I give is that this is merely a simile. No man has a  
> complete and unadulterated perception of God. But in the first  
> instance (face to face) it refers to a much clearer perception,  
> whereas in the latter case, it refers to a vague degree of  
> perception. The distinction between these degrees of vision is like  
> the difference between seeing a person's face clearly and merely  
> glimpsing him from behind.
> Another explanation given is that the first verse relates to the  
> period when Moshe had relocated his tent outside the Israelite camp,  
> away from the nation, in the aftermath of the sin of the Golden  
> Calf.              At that point, God spoke to him face to face (so  
> to speak).
> The second verse, however, describes the  situation after Moshe  
> returned to the nation. The people's spiritual level had declined  
> with the incident of the Golden Calf, and,  
> accordingly,                              Moshe's prophetic level  
> decreased when he rejoined the camp.
> ri

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