Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 43

Sun, 27 Jan 2008

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:32:36 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] assisted suicide


I referred to
> the case of "removing an impediment". Rama YD 339:1 explains
> that this is not a maaseh at all ... and it bothers me very
> much that we should be allowed to do that.

R' Shmuel Weidberg suggested:
> I don't think that you will find that it is MUTAR to remove
> an impediment, only that you are POTUR if you do so.

On the contrary, I've seen many places which do quote this Rama in the full "mutar" sense, not merely in the "potur aval assur" sense. Just one example would be Artscroll's "Mourning in Halacha" by Rabbi Chaim Nechemia Goldberg page 43, note 27.

Akiva Miller
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Message: 2
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 00:37:58 GMT
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] assisted suicide


I wrote:
> In contrast, when one does an act, he is essentially forcing
> Hashem's hand, because Hashem's only choices will be between
> having the person die, or doing a miracle of some sort.

R' Joel Rich asked:
> Any more "miraculous" then someone dieing earlier than he
> should have due to prayer?  What if the physician set a
> machine in motion that had a 50/50 chance of killing the
> patient and said now it's up to Hashem?

I don't understand that question. A person's death is *always* in Hashem's ability. If the physician sets up a 50/50 machine, that doesn't really change much at all (except our ability to call the physician "reckless"). My point is that when a person does a real act (like turning off a respirator, or some violence with a weapon) that pretty much *forces* Hashem to have the person die.

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________
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Message: 3
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:35:06 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] assisted suicide


Stadlan, Noam wrote:

> On the discussion of extension of 'natural life', one has a basic
> obligation to take care of one's body-shemor nafshecha me'od, and
> that usually is accepted to include not only staying away from
> harmful things(smoking), but also being proactive in taking care
> of your body.

What source is there for this proposition?  AFAIK all the examples
given for this drash on "ushmor nafshecha me'od" are about taking
risks of immediate death.  I don't know where people derive an issur
on smoking, which merely increases the likelihood of a life-shortening
illness at some future time, let alone a positive chiyuv to do things
that increase the likelihood of a longer life.


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 4
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 20:38:23 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Praying for the end


Jonathan Baker wrote:
> RZS:

>> That it's permitted to pray for the end to come is clear in the gemara.
>> Not just for oneself but for someone else.
> 
> Huh.  That's interesting.  Where in the gemara?

1. Rebbi's maid praying for him to die (and actively distracting
   those who were praying for him to live)
2. R Eliezer (deMila) praying for his son to die


-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas



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Message: 5
From: Harry Maryles <hmaryles@yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 17:40:38 -0800 (PST)
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Assisted Suicide


Richard Wolberg <cantorwolberg@cox.net> wrote:
  Someone wrote: Me- why? In fact couldn't one argue that the prayer to the
creator is more effective and thus more of a life shortner?
  That may be true, but the Creator has a right to do whatever He deems perfect... It reminds me of the person who says he prayed to God for something and was not answered. That isn't accurate. God DID answer and the answer was "No."
  --------------------------
   
  I have heard this Hashkafic statement more times than I can count. And I have a problem with it.
   
  When someone says he prays for something and wasn't answered, he means that he did not get the results he prayed for. If for example a parent prays that  a certain treatment to succesfully remove save a child from a serious disease, and then that child dies, is saying that the prayer was answered in the nefative the right thing to say? 
   
  Of course it was answered in the negative. The parent realizes that. The child died!
   
  When an indvidual says his prayers weren't answered, he means that what he was praying for was denied. Telling a greiving parent who lost a child that his prayers were indeed answered but in the negative is not going to make him feel any better. What exactly is the point of saying that? 
   
  One of the purposes of prayer is that we can change the 'mind' of God. If we Daven, God will hear us and cure the patient. If the patient then dies, is it appropriate to say that God answered our prayers? I don't think so. I can't imagine a greiving parent who after losing a child will say God answered his or her prayers!
   
  HM


Want Emes and Emunah in your life? 

Try this: http://haemtza.blogspot.com/
       
---------------------------------
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Message: 6
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 22:27:34 EST
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] assisted suicide


 
 
RSW wrote:

> I don't really understand why it was proper for  the chachamim to daven
> that Choni Hameagel should die. Couldn't they  have davened that he
> come to terms with the fact that he lived in a new  generation and had
> to make new friends?

And RZS wrote: 
>>Be that as it may, the gemara certainly approves of Rebbi's  maid's
actions. <<


>>>>>
Wasn't there some story (someone please tell me where) about the city of  
Luz, a kind of Shangri-la where no one ever died, but when they got very old and  
tired of living, they would just leave the city?  Was that  allowed?





--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good values,  good family, good hair
Best hope against  Hillary



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.     
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)
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Message: 7
From: "Michael Makovi" <mikewinddale@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 13:44:20 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Assisted Suicide


> By turning to the Borei one changes the factors that go into His
> decision. For all we know, the person's job in life was completed by
> this realization that we rely on Him.
>
> Gut Voch!
> -Micha

Or perhaps He just wanted to hear you ask. It's part of the same
thing. But there's an added nuance I think, that not only does He want
you to realize that He's the source, but simply, He wants a
relationship.

A father calls his son shortly before Pesach.
"Son, your mother and I are getting divorced."
"What??!! You've been married for 30 years and you're suddenly getting
divorced??!! Dad, don't do anything. I'm booking a flight right now
and calling my sister."
The father looks at the mother and says, "Well, they're coming for
Pesach. But what do we do about Sukkot?"

Mikha'el Makovi



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Message: 8
From: "hlampel@koshernet.com" <hlampel@koshernet.com>
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 19:43:30 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Diberah Torah


 Re: Diberah Torah (Zvi Lampel)

I wrote:
I therefore conclude that [the rishonim understood
that] the essential meaning of the Chazal [["Dibra
Torah K'l'shom bnei adam"]]is a broad
one that includes the one used by the rishonim
[[applying it to explain anthropomorphisms, for
example]]. Rabbi
Yishmael was just applying one of its implications
[[in using it to counter R" Akiva's darshanning of
doubled terms]].

I'd like to add that another advantage to this
approach is that it treats R' Yishmael's concept not
as one that he created wholesale, but as a recognized
klall mekubal; the only machlokess was in whether the
klall that the Torah expresses itself in human
language includes not only the Torah's use of idioms
and anthropomorphisms, but even otherwise extraneous
verbiage. 

Zvi Lampel




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Message: 9
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Sat, 26 Jan 2008 21:48:55 EST
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Is spam kosher?


 
 
From: "Simon Montagu" _simon.montagu@gmail.com_ 
(mailto:simon.montagu@gmail.com) 


 

>>Have any posekim addressed the question of whether sending  unsolicited
bulk emails is asur? <<
 
 
>>>>>
On what grounds would it be ossur?  What if I send something that I  
personally find interesting to fifteen people, and several of them consider it a  
waste of time while the others enjoy it -- on what grounds would that be assur  to 
do, or might it only become a question in your mind if my cc list had  fifty 
people instead of fifteen?


 


--Toby Katz
=============
Romney -- good  values, good family, good hair
Best hope against  Hillary



**************Biggest Grammy Award surprises of all time on AOL Music.     
(http://music.aol.com/grammys/pictures/never-won-a-grammy?NCID=aolcmp003000000025
48)
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Message: 10
From: "SBA" <sba@sba2.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 14:24:01 +1100
Subject:
[Avodah] FW: : [Areivim] What would a Torah government look


From: Zev Sero < >
Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> IIUC, Chareidi Hashkafah does not allow for a formal Chareidi 
> government until Mashiach comes. 

..  AIUI what this hashkafa forbids is haredim being members of the
government as currently constituted, because the government does things that
are assur, and the doctrine of cabinet responsibility means every minister
is responsible for all of the government's actions.  Even worse, often a
minister's own department is required by law to do things that are assur,
e.g. the dept of religions must by law fund avoda zara..

>>

See VM p 93 based on the Maharal, that even if govt members were "kulom
ahuvim kulom berurim af ketanoim ve'amoroim" taking over the govt before
Moshiach is 'dechikas hakeitz' and kefireh in Torah and emunah. Ayen shom.

SBA





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Message: 11
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 08:54:45 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] assisted suicide




I wrote:
> In contrast, when one does an act, he is essentially forcing Hashem's 
> hand, because Hashem's only choices will be between having the person 
> die, or doing a miracle of some sort.

R' Joel Rich asked:
> Any more "miraculous" then someone dieing earlier than he should have 
> due to prayer?  What if the physician set a machine in motion that had

> a 50/50 chance of killing the patient and said now it's up to Hashem?

I don't understand that question. A person's death is *always* in
Hashem's ability. If the physician sets up a 50/50 machine, that doesn't
really change much at all (except our ability to call the physician
"reckless"). My point is that when a person does a real act (like
turning off a respirator, or some violence with a weapon) that pretty
much *forces* Hashem to have the person die.

Akiva Miller
==================================================
My point was that forcing hashem's hand is a relative statement-prayer
may be as much a force as increasing the probability in other ways (e.g.
a gun can always misfire and people won't say it's a nes)
KT
Joel Rich

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Message: 12
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 10:40:32 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Assisted Suicide


On Jan 27, 2008 6:44 AM, Michael Makovi <mikewinddale@gmail.com> wrote:

> >
> Or perhaps He just wanted to hear you ask. It's part of the same
> thing. But there's an added nuance I think, that not only does He want
> you to realize that He's the source, but simply, He wants a
> relationship.
>
> A father calls his son shortly before Pesach.
> "Son, your mother and I are getting divorced."
> "What??!! You've been married for 30 years and you're suddenly getting
> divorced??!! Dad, don't do anything. I'm booking a flight right now
> and calling my sister."
> The father looks at the mother and says, "Well, they're coming for
> Pesach. But what do we do about Sukkot?"
>
> Mikha'el Makovi
>

There is a drah thatsupports this:
q: Why did HKBH give the snake dirt to eat? isnt' that a blessing that the
snake will never lack for food?
a: HKBH did not waant to even hear the pleas for food from the snake, so HE
gave him a limitless supply of food to avoid the snake from even asking

source: Shamati

* Who rises from prayer a better man, his prayer is answered.  ~George
> Meredith*

* Prayer must never be answered:  if it is, it ceases to be prayer and
> becomes correspondence.  ~Oscar Wilde*
>
>

 see: http://www.quotegarden.com/prayer.html



Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
RabbiRichWolpoe@Gmail.com
see: http://nishmablog.blogspot.com/
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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 12:38:21 -0500
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] Assisted Suicide


On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 10:40:32AM -0500, Richard Wolpoe wrote:
: There is a drah thatsupports this:
: q: Why did HKBH give the snake dirt to eat? isnt' that a blessing that the
: snake will never lack for food?
: a: HKBH did not waant to even hear the pleas for food from the snake, so HE
: gave him a limitless supply of food to avoid the snake from even asking
: source: Shamati

And there's the berakhah, we thank/acknowledge HQBH as "Borei nefashos
rabbos VECHESRONAM"

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha



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Message: 14
From: "Dr. Josh Backon" <backon@vms.huji.ac.il>
Date: Sun, 27 Jan 2008 17:10:27 +0200
Subject:
Re: [Avodah] What would a Torah government look like



>I agree with your concept of separation of powers but who says David was a
>navi?
>Why would he be a GREATETR Navi than Nassan.
>Writing Kessuvim is in no way a raya that he was a navi at all
>And FWIWavid was rebuked by Gad as well as by  Nassam

Both Rashi (on gemara in Megillah 14a d"h "nevi'im" quoting the BEHAG according
to Seder Olam) and the GRA (peyrush on Seder Olam) indicate that David HaMelech
was one of the nevi'im  [one of 48 according to Rashi; one of 76 
according to the GRA].

KT

Josh (going back to lurking mode)



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