Avodah Mailing List

Volume 25: Number 6

Sun, 06 Jan 2008

• 1. Re: Tefillin retzuos black on both sides? (Michael Makovi)
• 2. Re: Tefillin Retzuos black on both sides (Doron Beckerman)
• 3. Re: Kashrut of Cloning (Zev Sero)
• 4. Leniency WRT agunah (Micha Berger)
• 5. BO "My Sin Is Not A Perfume" (Richard Wolberg)
• 6. Tefillin retzuos black on both sides (M Cohen)
• 7. Re: Fasting on Yom Kippur (T613K@aol.com)
• 8. Re: Tefillin Retzuos black on both sides (Goldmeier)
• 9. Fasting on Yom Kippur (T613K@aol.com)
• 10. Re: Kashrut of Cloning (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 11. Re: Kashrut of Cloning (Michael Makovi)
• 12. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 13. Re: Chiyuv l'kabel gerim (Daniel Eidensohn)

> My son's bar mitzva is approaching so I had to order tefillin for him.
> In the process I heard of a new chumra, the retzuos should be black on
> both sides. Does anyone have a source for this? Is this really a new
> chumra or is this an established minhag? I personally never heard or
> saw retzuos like that until now.

I once asked my sofer about this (actually, I asked whether to make
both sides black would be mutar, because I thought to make both sides
black was so obvious, I couldn't figure out why no one does it): he
said that the chiyuv is only one side, because you need only one side
to face outwards with black; the other side means nothing. But if you
color both sides black, then you don't have to worry about your
retzuot flipping around and having the raw leather side facing
outwards.

I can't say anything about a new minhag. But to have both sides be
black certainly sounds convenient.

Mikha'el Makovi

Black on the reverse side is Shitas HaRambam. V'lo Nahagu Kain. See Mishnah
Berurah 33:(21)
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080106/e5cd2c6b/attachment-0001.html 

Liron Kopinsky wrote:
> http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/ng.asp?id=13575-fda-declares-cloning
> 
> A few questions to think about:
> 1) Are cloned animals kosher at all?

Why on earth not?

 
> 2) If kosher, are they still considered meat?

Again, why not?  What svara would suggest otherwise?


> 2b) does it matter if they were "born" from a test tube or by implanting
> them into a uterus?

Ma inyan shmita etzel har sinai?  What possible connection could there
be between uterine replicators and cloning?  When such technology is
developed, whatever shaylos it brings will surely apply equally to any
animal or person gestated in it, regardless of whether it/he was cloned.

In any case, so far there is no such thing as a uterine replicator.
We're not even close to such a thing.  When such technology is developed,
I still don't see why it should affect anything.


> 3) If they aren't kosher, will Chalav Yisroel become an absolute Chiyuv
> in America again?

Since I see no possible reason for the premise, the conclusion doesn't
follow.

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

RAF and I touched on the issue of agunah during last month's discussion
of the halachic process. OT1H, eishes ish and mamzeirus are permanent,
and therefore not issues to be taken lightly. OTOH, you can't decide
all that lightly to possibly ruin a woman's life.

See the Riva"sh, teshuvah 6. (This is a relatively famous teshuvah,
meaning: I heard of it before recently hearing RARakeffet's shiur. It is
about pilegesh bizman hazeh, and has relevance to questions like whether
"tefillin daters" are married.) The Rivash closes the teshuvah by saying
that there is no reason to be chosheish for a stringent shitah, since
it's not his job to make an agunah.

Tir'u baTov!
-Micha

-- 
Micha Berger             Rescue me from the desire to win every
micha@aishdas.org        argument and to always be right.
http://www.aishdas.org              - Rav Nassan of Breslav
Fax: (270) 514-1507                   Likutei Tefilos 94:964

Take a look in chapter 10, p'sukim 16 and 17.  After the utter  
devastation of the locust, Par'o quickly summons Moshe and Aharon and  
announces to them that he has sinned against God... and them. "I have  
sinned" is CHATA'TI, with the accent is Mil'eil: cha-TA-ti. Note also  
that the TET does not have a DAGESH in it. In the next pasuk, Par'o  
asks that his sin be forgiven... "My sin" is also CHATATI'. Looks the  
same, except that the accent is MILRA', on the last syllable. cha-ta- 
TI. And the TET has a DAGESH. In Ashkenazic pronunciation, as you well  
know, the words also sound a bit different, because one has a KAMATZ  
under the CHET and the other one has a PATACH under the CHET.  
CHAWTAWSI (I have sinned) and CHATAWSI (my sin). The accents are still  
MIL'EIL and MILRA' respectively.                               ri

A devout clergyman was asked by one of his parishioners to explain the  
doctrine of election. His reply was: "You know what an election is  
when we elect the president or the governor. In the Kingdom of God  
there is always an election going on. Only three votes are cast. The  
Lord always votes for you. The devil always votes against you. And YOU  
have the deciding  
vote.                                                             
Anonymous
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080106/e3b5f15e/attachment.htm 

Marty Bluke wrote:

> My son's bar mitzva is approaching so I had to order tefillin for him.

> In the process I heard of a new chumra, the retzuos should be black on 

> both sides. Does anyone have a source for this? Is this really a new 

> chumra or is this an established minhag? I personally never heard or 

> saw retzuos like that until now.

 

they are not just black on both sides, but they are black thru and thru.

this is a big practical advantage, as even if the retzuos paint wears away
due to scrapes, usage, etc. the tefillin retzuos are still black

also, you don't have to worry about the question of the retzuos edges having
to be black

 

when these new retzuos came out, I bought them for myself and now don't have
to check/touchup the retzuos as I always used to with a (nonanimalbased)
magic marker

 

Mordechai Cohen

 

 

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080106/8674659e/attachment.html 

 
 
From: "Meir Shinnar" <chidekel@gmail.com>
>> However,  being risk
averse is one way of saying that one is machmir on pikuach  nefesh,<<




>>>>>
I rarely see eye to eye with RMS but on this one I do.  My sister in  law in 
Toronto tells me that once when my father zt'l was visiting her in  Toronto on 
a fast day (not YK) when she was pregnant, he told her to eat and  said to 
her, "In Eretz Yisrael we are makpid to be meikil."




--Toby  Katz
=============



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080106/f6ebb499/attachment.htm 

not too long ago there was a discussion of this in the hamodia. I know 
this is not very helpful, but I do not remember what the conclusion was 
(maybe somebody else does).  I remember the writer had mentioned this 
seemingly new chumroh and asked if it was real and necessary. The 
discussion revolved around the possibility of the straps turning over. I 
think it was considered a minhag that was not accepted but would be good 
for someone who wants to be machmir. Maybe somebody else remembers better...

Rafi

____________________________________________Avodah mailing 
listAvodah@lists.aishdas.orghttp://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> No virus found in this incoming message.
> Checked by AVG Free Edition. 
> Version: 7.5.516 / Virus Database: 269.17.13 - Release Date: 12/31/2007 12:00 AM
>   

-- 
---------
Goldmeier
goldmeier@012.net.il

http://torahthoughts.blogspot.com
http://lifeinisrael.blogspot.com

Just to add to what I just wrote, although I agreed with RSM that being  
meikil on fasting can be machmir on pikuach nefesh, I didn't mean to imply that  
there is a blanket heter for pregnant women to fast on Yom Kippur (or even 
Tisha  B'Av).  The leniency is widespread for other fasts.
 


--Toby  Katz
=============



**************Start the year off right.  Easy ways to stay in shape.     
http://body.aol.com/fitness/winter-exercise?NCID=aolcmp00300000002489
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20080106/b2e11cec/attachment.html 

R' Liron Kopinsky asked several questions about the kashrus of cloned animals. Before we get to those questions, I'd like to first address his side-question:

> 2b) does it matter if they were "born" from a test tube or
> by implanting them into a uterus?

WADR, I think you've been watching too many science fiction movies. AFAIK, there is no technology currently available, or even envisioned for the near future, by which a cloned fetus can grow and develop in anything other than the uterus of a living animal.

What I *have* seen discussed is the possiblility of growing specific body parts (such as an organ or a piece of meat) in the laboratory, without growing the entire animal. I vaguely recall an article on this topic appearing in the Journal of Halacha and Contemporary Society, but I could weel be mistaken.

Regarding regular cloning, in which [warning: oversimplification ahead] an identical copy of a living animal is made by putting some DNA into an egg cell, and implanting it into an animal to grow and be born normally --- I can't imagine why the kashrus of such animals would be any different than the kashrus of animals born from other sorts of Artificial Insemination. If this raised kashrus problems, I'm sure we'd have heard about it by now:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_insemination --
> Artificial insemination of farm animals is very common in
> today's agriculture industry in the developed world, especially
> for breeding dairy cattle (75% of all inseminations) and swine
> (up to 85% of all inseminations).

R' Joel Rich has seen some articles on this topic, and wrote:
> My general take is the jury is out, the mekorot are sparse...

Well, "sparse" is a lot more than the "non-existent" which I would have expected. I'd love to hear some of the arguments against cloned meat.

Akiva Miller
_____________________________________________________________
Get the sign you need for the impact you want. Click now!
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3oB4dAqLUHWSPNdDP6S03n14gk1Ol72o0BocyKeXt9sV7UjI/

> http://www.foodqualitynews.com/news/ng.asp?id=13575-fda-declares-cloning
> 2) If kosher, are they still considered meat?

>> Again, why not?  What svara would suggest otherwise?

We know that a mother who is schechted and then gives live birth, the
baby is "dead". And if that calf grows up and has children, they're
all "dead" too, and onwards, and there's no chiyuv to schecht.

I haven't read the literature on this issue, but I could see how one
could hold that d'oraita, a cloned animal would be considered not a
real creature, having not come from a womb, and thus not liable for
schechting.

Mikha'el Makovi

RYGB:
If we believe that Yahadus is emes and that yakiru v'yeid'u kol yoshvei
teivel that emes, how can we not have a chiyuv to be mekaabel geirim!?


Because there is a level before that - Geir Toshav. Even if there wasn't -
Yakiru V'yeid'u only means that they will realize that Yahadus is Emes - it
doesn't imply that they will become Yidden, just that they renounce Avodah
Zarah. During Kriyas Yam Suf, for example, the nations renounced AZ, saying
Mi Kamocha... (Mechilta on that Pasuk.) That seems to me to be a full Yakiru
V'yeid'u. In any case, there were times in Jewish history when Chazal were
not M'kabel Geirim, because their motives were questioned.

KT,
MYG

 From the following sources - is seems that any possible mitzva to 
accept converts - is balanced out by a strong awareness that most are 
deleterious for the Jewish people. Thus Rashi simply states if they are 
dissuaded from converting it is of no concern to us. Or to put it 
another way it seems that even if there is a kiyum of a mitzva to accept 
geirim but there is no chiyuv that non-Jews be converted.

*Yevamos[1] <#_ftn1>(47b): *The Master said: If a non?Jew wants to 
convert he is told:?What is the reason that you have decided to 
convert?? He is informed of some of the minor and some of the major 
mitzvos. What is the reason for this? In order that if he wishes to 
withdraw let him withdraw. This is because of the words of R? Chelbo: 
?Converts are as difficult for Israel as a sore.? This is refected in 
the language of Isaiah (14:1): ?and foreigners shall be joined with 
them, and they shall cleave [same root as sore] to the house of Yaakov..?* *

 *Rashi[2] <#_ftn2>(Yevamos 47b): If he withdraws * - and doesn?t become 
a convert *Let him withdraw ? *and it is of no concern of ours.

*Yevamos[3] <#_ftn3>(109b)*: R? Yitzchok said what is the meaning of 
Mishlei (11:15): He that is a surety for a stranger will suffer for it? 
That means evil upon evil comes to those who accept converts... That 
those who accept converts bring evil upon themselves is learned from R? 
Chelbo who said: Converts are as difficult for Israel as a sore on the skin.

*Rashi[4] <#_ftn4>(Yevamos 109b): Converts are as difficult for Israel ? 
*because they are not knowledgeable in the details of the mitzvos and 
Israel learns from their incorrect conduct*. As a sore ? *This is the 
language of the verse (Yeshaya 14:1):?? and foreigners shall be joined 
with them, and they shall cleave [same root as sore] to the house of 
Yakov..* *

*Rambam[5] <#_ftn5>(Hilchos Issurei Biah 13:18): *Because of this* 
*[that even if they relapse they are still Jews] our Sages have said 
that converts are as difficult for Israel as a skin disease because the 
majority of them relapse and they lead Israel astray. It is difficult to 
avoid their influence after they have converted. Look what happened in 
the Wilderness concerning the Golden Calf as well Kivros HaTaavah. In 
addition concerning the majority of the trials the Mixed Multitude were 
involved at the start.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


???? ???? ???????? ???????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ??????. ?"?? 
??? ???? ?????, ??"? ????: ???? ???? ?????? ?????, ?????: (?????? ??:?) 
????? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????.

[2] <#_ftnref2>  *??"? (????? ??:): ??? ????* - ??? ??????. *?????* - 
??? ????? ??.

[3] <#_ftnref3>  *????? (??:):* ??"? ????, ??? ?????: (???? ??:??) ?? 
???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ????, ... ????? ???? - ??' ????, 
???? ?' ????: ???? ???? ?????? ????? ????.

[4] <#_ftnref4>  *??"? (????? ??:): ???? ????* - ???? ?????? ??????? 
???? ?????? ????? ???????. *?????* - ????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ????? 
?????? ?? ??? ???? (?????? ??:?):

[5] <#_ftnref5>  *???"? (????? ?????? ???? ??:??):* ????? ?? ???? ????? 
???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ??? ?????? ?? ?????, 
???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????????, ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ????? ???? 
??????? ????? ??? ??? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ????.




------------------------------


Avodah mailing list
Avodah@lists.aishdas.org
http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org


End of Avodah Digest, Vol 25, Issue 6
*************************************

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to
	avodah@lists.aishdas.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://lists.aishdas.org/listinfo.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	avodah-owner@lists.aishdas.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."