Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 36

Wed, 31 Oct 2007

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Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: "D&E-H Bannett" <dbnet@zahav.net.il>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 19:56:46 +0200
[Avodah] R' Aviner on heter mekhira

A few days ago, Rn Shoshana Boublil posted a link to Rav 
Shlomo Aviner's Hebrew article on heter mekhira. Shortly 
after REMT posted a comment on that article.

Those who prefer English, can read R' Aviner's article at:


I am trying to pass REMT's comments to RShA for his 



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Message: 2
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:02:21 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Steps/Stages [ana bekoach]

On 10/29/07, Jonathan Baker <jjbaker@panix.com> wrote:
> The structure of the act copies the structure of that which is symbolized.
> So too here: Ana Bekoach was constructed to correspond to the name of 42,
> with the acrostic Kroa Satan, etc.  But the 42 stages long predate any
> of our kabbalistic concepts, by at least a thousand years.  Where's the
> connection?  Otherwise, it seems too much like empty symbolism.
> --
>         name: jon baker

I don't know if I am agreeing with JJB or disagreeing....
FWIW Rav Mordechia Aderet suggested the following in a leture:l

The secret [sod] of the AnaBbeko'ach is the abbreviations [i.e. the 42
> > letters] And that the words used is a back formation added on later
> > [attributed to R. Nehunyah ben Hakena] which made a prayer [i.e.postfacto] - using the rosheie Teivos of thosel 42 letters.
> >
> Or iow the 42 is NOT derived from the ana bekoach, rather the 42 letters
came FIRST and give ntehose 42 the ana beko'ach was formed later..

I hope this helps

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
Please Visit:
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Message: 3
From: "Rich, Joel" <JRich@sibson.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 14:33:49 -0400
Re: [Avodah] praying to tzadikkim

 I had been looking at this issue last week and was interested by the
wide range of opinions and reasons.

Opinions range from it's the greatest thing since sliced bread to hanach

Reasons range from it's kabbalah so just use it, to it only works for
tzaddikim, to it works like having your friend pray for you, to it
enhances your kavannah.

Some sources to look at (in addition to the usual gemaras) -Minchat
Yitzchak 8:53,Iggrot Moshe O"C 5:43, Yechave daat 5:35, Kol Mvaser

Now it raises the question to me - do meitim have bchira? It seems yes
but how given they now have "the ultimate Knowledge"  so perhaps there
is no one correct answer to what one should be doing every moment? In
addition, if meitim yodim, then why would we have to pray for their
intercession, wouldn't they do it for us automatically?

Joel Rich
distribution or copying of this message by anyone other than the addressee is 
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Thank you.

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Message: 4
From: micha@aishdas.org
Date: 30 Oct 2007 19:00:00 -0400
Re: [Avodah] top recent seforim

RSWolbe's 7 Miyzvos Shekulos (?)

RSW discusses the 7 mitzvos described as "keneged kulam". First he establishes the the idiom means the mitzvah is a paragin of a primary value. Then RSW uses each mitzvah to discuss each value.

It should emerge as an essential seifer machashavah. 

Shetir'u baTov!
R' Micha Berger <micha@aishda.org>
(Sent by PDA. Please excuse any extra errors caused by my choosing timeliness over having the right tool and quiet.)

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Message: 5
From: Zeliglaw@aol.com
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:48:59 EDT
Re: [Avodah] Top Recent Seforim

In a message dated 10/30/2007 5:43:32 PM Eastern Daylight Time,  
avodah-request@lists.aishdas.org writes:

top  recent seforim

How about the Encyclopedia Talmudis? It is a wonderful and IMO  indispensable 
sefer for in depth analysis. The Otzar Mrarshei Talmud is another  excellent 
example. The Pischei Choshen makes learning CM possible. I fully  concur with 
the view re the Otzar HaPoskim. 
Steve Brizel

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
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Message: 6
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:08:52 -0400
Re: [Avodah] praying to tzadikkim

Rich, Joel wrote:

> Now it raises the question to me - do meitim have bchira? It seems yes
> but how given they now have "the ultimate Knowledge"  so perhaps there
> is no one correct answer to what one should be doing every moment?

Their bechira is not over actions - after all, they're incapable of
acting.  But they still have bechira over whether to pray for someone
or not.

> In addition, if meitim yodim, then why would we have to pray for their
> intercession, wouldn't they do it for us automatically?

The Zohar strongly implies that they don't know what's happening in
the world without being told.  AIUI they generally just aren't interested
in the events of this world, so they don't follow the news, but going to
their graves and speaking to them draws their attention, so they hear
what they're told and are able to act on it.

There's a rather scary story I read a few years ago, I can't remember
where, but it was a reliable source.  A daughter of the second Chabad
rebbe, R DovBer (aka the "Middle Rebbe") was married to R Aharon
Cherkasser, a grandson of R Nochum Chernobyler.  R Aharon's brother
died very young, and shortly afterwards he died too.  Some time later
he appeared to his mechutenesteh (R Aharon's mother) in a dream, and
said "My daughter just came and told me the news.  Why didn't you tell
me when your first son died?  Maybe I could have done something."

OTOH, the Zohar (quoted and explained at length in Tanya, Igeret
Hakodesh 27) also says that "a tzadik who dies is found in all the
worlds more than when he was alive", i.e. that so long as he still
has people who call on him he pays enough attention to this world
to hear and respond to them, and can do so with greater ease since
he's no longer constrained by the limits of a physical body.  I'm
not sure how to reconcile this with the story I just quoted.

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

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Message: 7
From: "Rabbi Daniel Yolkut" <HaLeviY@aol.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 18:38:23 -0400
[Avodah] piskei teshuvos

While I have found the Piskei Teshuvos both enlightening and helpful, there
is a review here which suggest that it should be used with care;
(i hope that this doesn't violate a log rule, and that it isnt really more
appropriate to Areviim.) 

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Message: 8
From: "Richard Wolberg" <cantorwolberg@cox.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:21:16 -0400
[Avodah] Did Someone Forget Eilu v'eilu?

What would Ralbag do with the Mishna in Avos (5:8) that says the Pi HaAson

was created Erev Shabbos?


Perhaps he would say that everything was created by the 6th day, but its
actualization took place whenever it was supposed to - some a day later and
others five millennium later.

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Message: 9
From: "Richard Wolberg" <cantorwolberg@cox.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 21:27:59 -0400
[Avodah] Boruch Dayan Emes

Thank God, I'm not reporting anyone's passing. 

However, I realized an interesting configuration of Dayan Emes. With one
slight change, you can read it: Dayan 'Aleph' Meis. The One (aleph) Judge of
the dead. In other words, only HaShem can judge the deceased.

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Message: 10
From: Daniel Eidensohn <yadmoshe@012.net.il>
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 04:02:19 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Mikveh l'zona

T613K@aol.com wrote:
> Do we know for sure who was the father of her child -- Daryavesh/ Darius? 
> *
> *
Vayikra Rabbah (13:5) says that he was the son of Esther and Achashveros.

 R. Judah b. R. Simon said: The last Darius was the son of Esther, clean 
from his mother [?s side] and unclean from his father [?s side].
Rashi(Ezra 1:1), Rashi(Ezra 4:24), Ibn Ezra (Daniel 9:1), Radak(Chaggai 
1:1), Ramban(Megila 11b)  agree.

Tosfos HaRosh (Megila 13b) says that Darius was the son of Esther and 
Mordechai and that he is referred to as the son of Achashveros because 
he was raised in his house.

It would also seem that since the Zohar states that there was no 
physical relationship between Esther and Achashveros he was the son of 
Esther and Mordechai.

Of course all this assumes that in fact Mordechai and Esther were married

Daniel Eidensohn

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Message: 11
From: "Moshe Y. Gluck" <mgluck@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:06:01 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Did Someone Forget Eilu v'eilu?

What would Ralbag do with the Mishna in Avos (5:8) that says the Pi HaAson
was created Erev Shabbos?
R' RW:
Perhaps he would say that everything was created by the 6th day, but its
actualization took place whenever it was supposed to - some a day later and
others five millennium later.

Perhaps my question wasn't clear. If the episode of Bilaam's donkey never
happened - it was only a vision - then what was created?


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Message: 12
From: Michael Poppers <MPoppers@kayescholer.com>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:11:09 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Shabbas he mi lezok (Was An-im Zemiros)

(Forgive me if what I note below has been discussed this past week --
looking at the ToC/"Today's Topics" stanzas of digests I haven't yet read,
I saw a lot of "An-im Zemiros" subject headings but no "Shabbas he mi
lezok" headings....)

In Avodah Digest V24#26, RMarBl wrote:
> What does "Shabbas he mi lezok" mean? The Gemara in Shabbos (12a) says
that someone who goes to visit a sick person should say this (Shabbas
he mi lezok u'refua krova lavo) to the sick person. Rashi explains, we
are telling the sick person to try not to be sad because it is shabbos
and a person is supposed to be happy on shabbos. The Ran has a
different peshat. He says we are telling the sick person that since it
is shabbos we can't daven for him. <
The key point of both RaShY and RaN is that neither the m'vaqeir nor the
choleh is permitted to be mitztaeir on Shabbos.  That "we can't daven" for
the choleh might be (better, "we can't cry out for" the choleh) p'shat in
"Shabbas hi miliz'oq," not in the RaN.

> Rashi's peshat fits in better with the mi shebeirach l'cholim, we say
the mi shebeirach and then we tell the people in shul, don't be upset
about the sick person it is shabbos. However, according to the Ran it
is a bit difficult, we are contradicting ourselves, we just said a
prayer for the sick person and we end off by saying we really aren't
allowed to daven for you. The Aruch Hashulchan in OC 287 asks this
question and writes that our minhag is difficult.  Maybe the pshat is
that we are explaining why this is the only tefilla we are saying for
the sick person. Interestingly enough, the Artscroll siddur translates
the mi shebeirach like the Ran.
> The Shulchan Aruich Harav writes that one should not say the regular
mi shebeirach but only Shabbos hi . <
IMHO, one can be m'chaleiq between a one-on-one visit w/ a choleh on
Shabbos, where the chance for either or both to be mitztaeir is high enough
that Beis Shammai forbade it, and a Mi Shebeirach in a public forum, where
at least the choleh isn't present and where the person who would have
visited may not even be the one requesting (viz. the [very recent?] custom
in some places that individual names are not mentioned by the one making
the Mi Shebeirach).  The custom not to make a Mi Shebeirach except in a
case of saqanas n'fashos may relate more to why the weekday Amidah isn't
said on Shabbos than to the concept of avoiding tza'ar (hmmm, do we avoid
saying "Avinu Malkeinu" on YhK shechal baShabbos because of baqashos [hard
to say because of tircha] or because of the likelihood of tza'ar?).

All the best from
--Michael Poppers via RIM pager
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Message: 13
From: Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org>
Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 23:07:00 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Did Someone Forget Eilu v'eilu?

On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 02:21:07AM -0400, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: What would Ralbag do with the Mishna in Avos (5:8) that says the Pi HaAson
: was created Erev Shabbos?

I assume that the Ralbag, like the Rambam as explained by the Abarbanel,
holds that nevu'ah is a glimpse into real non-physical things. Just as
the "Man in the Chariot" had to be the Kavod Nivra, a created real thing.

Also, the Rambam's take on Avraham's visitors is based on his
understanding of R' Chiya in Bereishis Rabba 48. He doesn't invent his
own shitah of whole cloth. It is therefore within eilu va'eilu in a less
contravercial way than an interpretation that lacks any such support
that it "merely" the product of one person's effort to fit mesorah to
the data without such clues.

Tir'u baTov!

Micha Berger             "The most prevalent illness of our generation is
micha@aishdas.org        excessive anxiety....  Emunah decreases anxiety:
http://www.aishdas.org   'The Almighty is my source of salvation;  I will
Fax: (270) 514-1507      trust and not be afraid.'" (Isa 12) -Shalhevesya

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Message: 14
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 00:12:50 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Alleged story about the SM"A

On 10/30/07, Noah Witty <nwitty@optonline.net> wrote:
> There is "famous" story (I  have heard it so it's "famous" . . . about
> the SM"A who was involved in a din torah, which he lost despite his
> acumen in Choshen Mishpat.  The dayanim explained that they actually
> paskened like the SM"A's own peirush on the matter, while the SM"A had,
> in his own behalf, taken the position of the Sha"Ch, who disagrees with
> the SM"A's peirush. The story is usualy conveyed as a moralality tale
> about the blinding effect of self-interest (negi'os).  (On the topic of
> negi'os in this week's parsha, see Michtav May-Eliyahu, 2:202-203 and
> 5:299-300.)
> QUERY:  1)    Does anyone have a printed source for this story? If the
> answer is Krohn, pleas identify the book, and possibly a printed source
> earlier than Rav Shwadron zt"l.
>                 2)   Anyone have any idea what the din torah was about?
> and what halacha was at issue?
> Thanks in advance.
> Noach Witty
> _______________________________________________

*Joshua Falk* (Hebrew <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language>: ?????
?? ??????? ????)(also: *Joshua ben Alexander HaCohen Falk*)
1614 <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1614>) was a Polish
Talmudist <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talmud>, best known as the author of
the *Beit Yisrael* commentary on the *Arba'ah
* as well as *Sefer Me'irat Enayim* (??"?) on *Shulkhan
*. His name also occurs as the Hebrew
*RaFaK*" ("*R[abbi]] Falk Kohen*") and "*Ma-HaRWaK*" ("*Morenu ha-Rab Walk

*Shabbatai ben Meir ha-Kohen* (1621-1662) was a noted 17th Century
halakhist <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halakhist>. He became known as *
Shakh,* which is an abbreviation of his most important work, *Sifsei
ha-kohen* (literally *Lips of the Priest*), and his rulings were considered
authoritative by later halakhists.

He was born in Vilna <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilnius> in 1621 and died
at Holleschau <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holleschau> on the 1st of
Adar<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adar>(Rishon), 1662. In 1633 he
entered the
yeshivah <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yeshivah> of R. Yehoshua
Yosef at
Tykotzin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tykotzin>, studying later at
Lublin <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lublin> and becoming a pupil of R. Heschel
b. Yaakov of Cracow<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Heschel_b._Yaakov_of_Cracow&;action=edit>(the
"Rebbe Reb Heschel"). Returning to
Vilna <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vilna>, he married the daughter of
R. Shimon
Wolf b. Isaac Benimus<http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Shimon_Wolf_b._Isaac_Benimus&;action=edit>,
and shortly after was appointed one of the assistants of R. Moshe Lima b.
author of *Chelkat
.* In 1646 he went to Cracow, and in the following year published his *Sifte
Kohen,* or *Shakh,* commentary on *Shulchan Arukh* *Yoreh
,* a work that was approved by eighteen of the greatest scholars of that
generation. In 1648 the communities of Russian
Poland<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Poland>were devastated by
Chmielnicki <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chmielnicki>, Shabbetai ha-Kohen
being among the sufferers. About this time he published his *Megillah
Afah.*After a short stay at
Prague <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prague>, where he had sought refuge
from the Cossack <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cossack> uprising, he was
called to the rabbinate of
and later to that of Holleschau <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holleschau>,
where he gained the intimate friendship of Magister Valentini Vidrich of
Leipzig <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leipzig>.


Since the Sma was dead 7 years before the Shach was born it would take
someone from the extreme NON-HISTORICAL school to buy into the above story!

Kol Tuv / Best Regards,
Please Visit:
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