Avodah Mailing List

Volume 24: Number 18

Mon, 22 Oct 2007

• 1. Re: May Kohanim visit the Rebbe's Ohel by means of a box (Arie Folger)
• 2. Re: Graf Potocki [was: Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique] (T613K@aol.com)
• 3. What happened to the nefesh asher asu b'charan? (Gershon Dubin)
• 4. What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Ever (Richard Wolberg)
• 5. Re: Minhag Yisroel and Gra on 2 Matzos vs.3 Matzos (Arie Folger)
• 6. Re: Minhag Yisroel and Gra on 2 Matzos vs.3 Matzos (Rich, Joel)
• 7. Re: Graf Potocki [was: Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique] (Rich, Joel)
• 8. May Kohanim visit the Rebbe's Ohel by means of a box (M Cohen)
• 9. May Kohanim visit the Rebbe's Ohel by means of a box (M Cohen)
• 10. Re: What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Ever (Daniel Eidensohn)
• 11. Re: What did they learn in the yeshiva of Shem and Ever (Micha Berger)

MYG wrote:
> Doesn't the Gemara say that
> people would be lowered into the Kodesh Kadashim to do maintenance in a
> similar movable box?

That was not related to tumah AFAIK, but shelo yazunu 'eynehem min haqokdesh.
 ?????? ?? ?????, ??? ?? ??? ??????? ?? ???, ???? ??? ????? ???? ?? ?????.  
???????? ??????? ????? ??????, ??? ???? ???? ???? ???????.  ?????? ??? ?????? 
?????? ???? ???? ???????, ???? ??????? ?? ??????? ??????, ??? ??? ????? ?? 
?????? ???? ???? ???????.
Mishnah Midot 4:5
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

 
 
From: Dov Bloom _dovb@netvision.net.il_ (mailto:dovb@netvision.net.il) 


>>R  Harari adds that true convert R. Avraham ben Avraham (the Graf Potocki) 
was  tortured by the monks, who threatened to burn him unless he re-converted 
to  Christianity, which he refused. The GRA offered to save him using Sheimot  
HaKedoshim, but the ger tzedek refused, preffering a "kiddush shem shamayim  
barabim" . 

Harari quotes R Nebenzhal saying that this mesora of the GRA  is not found in 
any written source but alluded to in the book HaGaon HaChasid  MiVilna p 18.

Does anyone know of any other sourcces about this mesorah  from the GRA not 
coming from RSZA and his  talmidim?<<



>>>>>
Not exactly a source, but the story is in a book called Avrohom ben  Avrohom, 
by Selig Schachnowitz, published by Feldheim in 1977.  According  to the dust 
jacket, in this "historical novel, Selig Schachnowitz takes the few  known 
facts about the legendary gair tzeddek of Vilna, Valentin Potocki, and  weaves 
them into the rich tapestry of Jewish life in the Ashkenazic communities  of 
mid-18th century Europe."
 
In the book, a note is smuggled to the famous ger tzedek in prison, and the  
Jew who brings it says, "If you wish, Rabbeinu Eliyahu can use his knowledge 
of  Kabalah to liberate you."  Avraham replies, "Now that the mitzva of kiddush 
 haShem has come to hand I do not wish to forgo it."
 
BTW I tried to find biographical information about Selig Schachnowitz on  
line but did not succeed.  There are a lot of German entries so I guess he  was 
(is?) a German writer -- were his books written first in German and then  
translated into English?  I get the impression he lived in Frankfurt before  the 
war?   Maybe one of you chevra know something about  him.

 


--Toby  Katz
=============



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From: "Marty Bluke" <marty.bluke@gmail.com>
 
<<Rashi states that Avraham and Sara were megayer many people. What
happened to these people? How come we don't hear anything about them? >>

I saw a midrash this Shabbos that Iyov was one of them.

Gershon
gershon.dubin@juno.com

"They're also allowed to take on almost any mitzvah they like"

 

Perhaps I've been under a misconception, but I don't think a goy can accept
tallis and tefillin, licht bentch'n, etc. etc. etc.  I would say, farkeirt,
they're NOT allowed to take almost any mitavah they like. 

 

Is a goy obligated to kibud av va'aim. We know there are Seven Noachide Laws
(which branch off into 30) They can be remembered by Aleph: Aver min hachai;
Bes: Birkas haShem (which means the opposite; you're not allowed to curse
God); Gimel: G'neiva,g'zela - stealing; Daled: Dinim. You have an obligation
to set up courts; Hay: hariga, not allowed to kill; Vov: Adultery; Zayin:
zara (avoda zara). So a goy doesn't have the mitzvah of kibud Av va'aim,
however he should observe it if he is a mensch. In that area I would agree
with Zev. Though the gemara Sanhedrin says that a goy who learns Torah is
chayav misa, it is metaphoric and for sholom bayis, if a goy wants to learn
anything beyond the zayin mitzvoth, we shouldn't consider killing him. For
sure, he must learn if he is going to convert. (Incidentally, it is said
that a goy never converts; a ger converts).

BTW, who was the Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever?  J

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I wrote:
> > In conlusion, I do not believe that we can find a single overarching
> > principle that explains all ma'hloqot in halakhah.

RJR wrote:
> > Which is exactly what bothers the unified field theorists - ?then
> > halacha seems arbitrary and the halachik process not reproducible.

Of certain import is an article in the most recent volume of Hakirah, here: 
http://www.hakirah.org/Vol 5 Rabinovitch.pdf

R. Rabinovitch (RY in Ma'aleh Adumim IIRC) originally published the article 
elsewhere, in Hebrew, and it was translated for Hakirah. The folowing quote 
is relevant to our discussion:

==== BEGIN QUOTE ====
The Ramban z?l wrote:
        ?Everyone who studies our Talmud knows that among disputing
        commentators there are no absolute proofs nor definitive solutions
        for most problems, for this field is not an exact science like
        geometry or astronomy. Rather, we invest all our efforts when
        evaluating differing opinions on an issue, ruling out some
        possibilities through decisive reasoning and forcefully applying the
        conclusions and rules of the Gemaras. We favor an opinion which
        is more straightforward and more consistent with the Talmudic
        discussions, provided it adheres to clear and rigorous logic. This is
        all we can accomplish, and is the aim of every G-d fearing scholar
        who is expert in the wisdom of the Talmud.?5
        Since the wisdom of Torah is unlike the study of
mathematics, there is room for opposing opinions. One h?akham sees
one aspect prevailing, while a second sees the opposite. It is clear,
however, that both sides justify their position on recognized
principles and criteria. To this person, a particular component carries
more weight, while to the other, it carries less. Therefore, even one
==== END QUOTE ====

KT
-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

 

        Since the wisdom of Torah is unlike the study of mathematics, there is room for opposing opinions. One h?akham sees one aspect prevailing, while a second sees the opposite. It is clear, however, that both sides justify their position on recognized principles and criteria. To this person, a particular component carries more weight, while to the other, it carries less. Therefore, even one ==== END QUOTE ====

KT
--
Arie Folger
============================================================
No problem, just pointing out that this implies 2 identically situated individuals may get a different dvar hashem depending on who they go to (some find this objectionable hashkafically) and that it does, as previously discussed, imply subjectivity which then brings into question the role of motivation (e.g. had the women's tfila groups come the same route as amen groups, would they have been allowed).

It also raises the question of what if my 2 identically situated people meet each other and decide they should seek the "true" dvar hashem by going to a higher level posek,  and why shouldn't this be the 1st option if one is seeking the "true" dvar hashem (if one thinks there can really only be one)

KT
Joel Rich
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	>>R Harari adds that true convert R. Avraham ben Avraham (the
Graf Potocki) was tortured by the monks, who threatened to burn him
unless he re-converted to Christianity, which he refused. The GRA
offered to save him using Sheimot HaKedoshim, but the ger tzedek
refused, preffering a "kiddush shem shamayim barabim" . 
	
	Harari quotes R Nebenzhal saying that this mesora of the GRA is
not found in any written source but alluded to in the book HaGaon
HaChasid MiVilna p 18.
	
	Does anyone know of any other sourcces about this mesorah from
the GRA not coming from RSZA and his talmidim?<<
	
	
	===================================================
	IIRC R"HS retells the story in either nefesh or mpininei. There
is no mention of the GRA's offer, just that he comforts him with a quote
from a pasuk implying HKB"H will be his mourner since he has no halachik
relatives.
	KT
	Joel Rich

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ADDRESSEE.  IT MAY CONTAIN PRIVILEGED OR CONFIDENTIAL 
INFORMATION THAT IS EXEMPT FROM DISCLOSURE.  Dissemination, 
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strictly prohibited.  If you received this message in error, please notify us 
immediately by replying: "Received in error" and delete the message.  
Thank you.
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re: ...new techeiles is a great example of advancements in technology

see http://hometown.aol.com/chilazon/ and the psak from R shlomo miller
there



re: ...significant change to the previous halacha (2 inspections every 7
years) and it is a direct result of the new technology

there is no halacha requiring regularly worn tefillin inspection 2/7yrs.





sincerely,
Mordechai Cohen
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..as per your explanation, I assume the user is makpid to keep the
mechitzos/box within 3 tefachim of the ground

(you didn't mention this detail)

regards,
Mordechai Cohen
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R' Richard Wolberg wrote:
>
> ?They're also allowed to take on almost any mitzvah they like?
>
> * *
>
> *Perhaps I?ve been under a misconception, but I don?t think a goy can 
> accept tallis and tefillin, licht bentch?n, etc. etc. etc.  I would 
> say, farkeirt, they?re NOT allowed to take almost any mitavah they like.*
>
The Biur Halacha #304 discusses the Magen Avraham that in fact a non-Jew 
who wants to be a ger toshav can in fact accept between 7 to 612 mitzvos 
-including Shabbos. If he accepts 613 he is a Jew.

*Rambam[1] <#_ftn1>**(Hilchos Melachim 10:10):* A non Jew (Ben Noach) 
who wishes to observe mitzvos in order to receive reward  ? we do not 
stop him from performing the mitzva properly. Therefore if he brings a 
Olah sacrifice for the Temple we accept it. We accept the charity that 
he gives ? but we give it to poor non Jews.

[1] <#_ftnref1>  *???"? (????? ????? ?:?) *?? ?? ???? ????? ???? ???? 
???? ????? ??? ???? ???, ??? ?????? ???? ?????? ??????, ??? ???? ???? 
?????? ????, ??? ???? ?????? ????, ????? ?? ??????? ???? ????? ?????, 
????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???????, ??? ????"? ???? ???? ?????? 
???? ??????? ???? ????? ???"?.

*Chasam Sofer[1] <#_ftn1>**(Chullin 33):  *It would appear from the 
language of the Rambam(Melachim 10:9-10) that he distinguishes between 
non Jews who are idol worshipper and those who are Ben Noach. A Ben 
Noach is a non Jew who has decided not to worship idols. The Ben Noach ? 
according to the Rambam ? would be allowed to keep Shabbos as well as 
other mitzvos. A Ben Noach can also have animals sacrified in the 
Temple, can be taught Torah and can donate charity to Jews. ? It would 
appear that the Rambam?s lenient ruling is based on Nedarim (31a). He 
apparently followed this text rather than the one?s that prohibited 
Torah learning because it is a later text than the rest of the Talmud.


------------------------------------------------------------------------


?:?-?) ????? ????? ??? ???''? ??? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ????? ??? 
??? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ?????? ??????? ?? ???? 
??????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ?? ??? 
?? ???? ???? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?' ??''?  '?????? ?' ?????' 
??''?  ???''? ???? ??''? ????? (??.) ????? ????? ??????. ???? ?? ???? 
??????. ????? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?''? ????? ?????? ???? 
????? ?????.

> * *
>
> * *
>
> *Is a goy obligated to kibud av va?aim. *
>
The Netziv in his haskama to the Chofetz Chaim's Ahavas Chesed says in 
fact they are.

On Mon, October 22, 2007 7:11 am, Richard Wolberg wrote:
: BTW, who was the Rosh Yeshiva of the Yeshiva of Shem and Ever?  J

This is a good question, because it reminds you that we're using the
word "yeshiva" loosely. The Rambam draws a picture of something like
Plato's Academy, which was more like the people who informally hung
around R' Chaim Brisker than a place with actual registration,
acceptance process, required attendance, etc... like Volozhin. And of
course, without as much halakhah, the Rambam presumes it was mostly
aggadic-philosophical.

However, I wonder about the original question... The problem is
likened to that of geneivah or of eishes ish. But this was before
matan Torah. (Not to play down hamefateh pehuyah, so there is a limit
to this mashal, but:) What exactly is the problem with nachriim
learning Torah before it was given to anyone in particular?

SheTir'u baTov!
-micha

-- 
Micha Berger             One who kills his inclination is as though he
micha@aishdas.org        brought an offering. But to bring an offering,
http://www.aishdas.org   you must know where to slaughter and what
Fax: (270) 514-1507      parts to offer.        - R' Simcha Zissel Ziv



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