Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 213

Wed, 03 Oct 2007

< Previous Next >
Subjects Discussed In This Issue:
Message: 1
From: Richard Wolpoe <RabbiRichWolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 20:39:05 -0700 (PDT)
[Avodah] NishmaBlog : Just what Makes Sukkot Z'man

Richard Wolpoe has sent you a link to a blog:

The conclusion of how Sukkot is Z'man Simchateinu after all. Gmar Tov,

Blog: NishmaBlog
Post: Just what Makes Sukkot Z'man Simchateinu? Pt. 3

Powered by Blogger
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071002/9c8be26f/attachment.html 

Go to top.

Message: 2
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 23:48:49 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Tea before Shacharis

On 10/2/07, kennethgmiller@juno.com <kennethgmiller@juno.com> wrote:
> .
> The mashal of Eved Hamozeg is designed to illustrate that when we have
> been denied the opportunity to do the mitzva, we should understand that
> HaShem is upset with us. Can someone do a search to see if this mashal
> appears in other contexts? If it appears only by Sukkah, or also appears for
> other similarly subjective mitzvos, then perhaps we can draw a clear line
> between the cases where it applies, and the cases where Machshava Mitztaref
> L'Maaseh applies.
> Akiva Miller

Completely tangential AISI this concept of eved Mozeig is specific and
limited to Eretz Yisrael where the weather is a function of our local
behavior - "Tamid Einei Hashem elokecha Bah."

OTOH, in the USA I would consider this a matter of Hubris that due to the
Jews in the USA alone the entire weather pattern is magically shlepped
along. now if you want to say the the mezeg in the USA is a function of the
entire USA [not just the Jews here] you would not havea a hubris problem -
nevertheless it would still make the USA a weather barometer of our standing
with HKBH. AFAIK, this is ONLY a function of Eretz Yisrael

Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
Please Visit:
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071002/1a8eb32e/attachment.htm 

Go to top.

Message: 3
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 00:19:09 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Tea before Shacharis

On 10/1/07, Micha Berger <micha@aishdas.org> wrote:
> On Mon, October 1, 2007 11:29 am, kennethgmiller@juno.com wrote:
> :
> While whining about my hypothetical person's inability to go all of
> davening without a drink beforehand, here's a related (even more
> maudlin) question:
> H
> -micha
Davening according to most poskim is erabbanan
DAvening according to a set time is universally derabbana
Yet a passuk is used to porhibit eating before davening - lo sa'amod al dam

A friend once e-mailed me that  any brach gets past theis d'oraissa
requirement. how can  this be?
Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
Please Visit:
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071003/9ba4a050/attachment.html 

Go to top.

Message: 4
From: T613K@aol.com
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 00:44:58 EDT
Re: [Avodah] mechitza [was: heter mechira produce]

From: David Riceman <driceman@att.net>
>>I suspect this is  a sociological phenomenon rather than a halachic one.  
One analogue in  America is the elevation of mehitza in shul from a 
custom not even mentioned  in Shulhan Aruch to the fourteenth ikkar, 
which distinguishes observant Jews  from non-observant Jews. <<
Mechitza is only a "minhag"?  In Europe they didn't have mechitzos in  shul?  
Men and women sat together?  Or they sat separately but with no  physical 

--Toby  Katz

************************************** See what's new at http://www.aol.com
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071003/879e2ce0/attachment.htm 

Go to top.

Message: 5
From: "Michael Kopinsky" <mkopinsky@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 00:48:35 -0400
Re: [Avodah] Shir HaMaalos, Maaseh Elokaynu/Enosh, L'Dovid

On 9/30/07, RallisW@aol.com <RallisW@aol.com> wrote:
>  1) Isn't saying Shir HaMaalos MiMamakim a hefsek between Yishtabach and
> Borchu?

Siddur Tefillas Yosef, which is based almost entirely on MB, omits Shir
Hamaalos there.  B"N, I will check later if he puts a source in MB for this

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071003/ee1a8654/attachment.html 

Go to top.

Message: 6
From: "Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 01:50:57 -0400
Re: [Avodah] heter mechira produce

On 10/2/07, Dov Bloom <dovb@netvision.net.il> wrote:
> > He brings down Rashbam, Baal HaMaor, Rashbash, Behag, Baal HaItur and
> others. His conclusion "HaMachmir tavo alav beracha ve'hameikel lo hifsid".
> A far cry from how some rabbanim relate this year to produce from heter
> mechira.
A Rabbinic colleague of mine once remarked  to me - Have you ever read the
Gaomin? It's Mamash a different religion!

I responded that there is probably a similar of gap between Rishonim and


   1. Shavuos.  No rishon AFAIK [tough to prove a negative] ever holds
   that Shauvos night has to wait for Temimos [either for Kidush - as per MGA;
   or for davening as per Taz/MB].  The Tur and nos'ei keilim, Mechaber, and
   Rema do not mention it at all. .
   2. 2 vs. 3 matzos at the Seder night. The Gra revived the more-or-less
   dead custom of 2 matzos on the Seder night even though BY hismelf contra to
   Rif/Rambam followed Tosafos/Rosh.
   3. Tosafos// BeHeG require NO waiting between meat and milk.  Rema
   codifies 1 hour.  - though he RECOMMENDS [nachon] to wait 6.  Chochmas Adam,
   Shach and others take anything less that n 6 hours as some kind of major
   deviation against Halachah.h, even though yekes were doing 3 at that
   time and Dutch only 1 [as per Rema]. Rav Forst hs fvery strong words for
   those who have no family minhag -even though he himslef is a yekke! What
   shifted?  Why can't people rely upon Tosafos or Rema?
   4. Women reading the Megillah:
      1. The BY frames the machlokes of women reading Megilla for men
      as follows: Rashi and others say it is definitely OK for women to leinfor
      men. BeHaG and others say women may read for women but NEVER for men
      2.  Acharonim have morphed this into a MUCh harsher position
      viz. Women CERTAINLY may not read for men, the question and
debate remains
      may they read for other women?  Rav JB Soloveichik is on record
as saying NO
      -  based upon his rfead of said BeHaG. But the BY above saw the very same
      BeHAG and saw the disabliity as limited to reading for men but not for
      women. What shifted?

It seems that at the Chasimas Shuchan Aruch [SA] many Acharonim often
started heading in a new direction, one that is not so based upon
precedent.  Levush seems somewhat Traditional and the Aruch Hashulchan even
more so. Other Acharonim seem to come up with a brand new point of view on
many points. It's like the Tur v'sayasso were no longer a factor in Halacah.
Not to mention the Rambam and the Rif.

Gmar Tov
Best Wishes for 5768,
Please Visit:
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071003/ef11325b/attachment.htm 

Go to top.

Message: 7
From: Ken Bloom <kbloom@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Oct 2007 22:51:10 -0700
Re: [Avodah] How much Conformity to local Nusach/Mihag is

On Tue, 2 Oct 2007 17:30:37 -0400
"Richard Wolpoe" <rabbirichwolpoe@gmail.com> wrote:

> How much Conformity to local Nusach/Mihag is required for Shatz and
> for the Private Worshipper? What are the parameters?  Kudos to Mr.
> Michale Opoers for a long off-list discussion that stimluated my
> brain in this direction?
> Illustrations:
> Shatz:
>    1. Can he say TiskaBAL instead of TiskaBEIL
>    2. Is the Shatz qrequired to conform whilst saying things silently
>    1. Is a Shatz required to daven the minhag of the shul during his
>       PIRVATE AMIDAH or his minhag Avos?
>       2. Does a Shatz have to say Barcuh Hashem or V'shamru at Arvis
>       or may he wait silently until the tzibbur finished and then
> proceed. 3. Can you say Morid Hatal in a congregation that normally
> omits it? [fwiw when I was at ner israel a rebbe made that Shatz go
> back to ata gibbor and to repeat it w/o morid hatal!]

R' Ovadia does not allow a sepharadi to serve as the shaliach tzibbur
at an ashkenazi shul, because l'chatchilah a sepharadi should not daven
nusach ashkenaz because the sepharadi nusach is kabbalistically
superior. (For more information see Yalkut Yosef siman 101, which
traces the sources of all of these issues)

Nevertheless, some of these issues (or analagous issues) may still be
relevant within sepharadi shuls with different versions of the nusach.
(E.g. syrian versus turkish versus spanish/portugese versus
middle-eastern). I haven't seen a sepharadi shul that's so makpid about
a single version of the nusach that every shaliach tzibbur davens
precisely the same version of the nusach. Then again, I haven't spent
enough time around a sepharadi community that was large enough that its
shul's constituency had an overwhelming majority from a specific

>    4. At a Nusach Ashk. Minyan 2 reciters of kaddish Yasom shouted out
>    v'yatzmach - is that ok?

R' Ovadia rules that sepharadim saying kaddish need to say kaddish in
their nusach, regardless of the shul. That means saying v'yatzmach in
an ashkenazi shul. He permits sepharadim to shorten y'hei shlama... so
as to remain synchronized with ashkenazim who are also saying kaddish.

[I've omitted the other questions, becuase I don't have YY to consult
right now, and am citing sources from memory, but I'd be pretty certain
that all of these issues are addressed there in the appropriate places.]

> Private Worshiper:
>    1. Can a private person say kesser yitnu while the tzibbur says
>    na'arizcha?

R' Ovadia rules that this is what a sepharadi should do. Likewise with
na'aritzach (edot hamizrach) versus n'kadesh et shimcha (nusach
ashkenaz) (Yalkut Yosef 101)

>    2. Does a private person have to articulate nekadesh bekolram or
> may he ramain silent in a shul that says it out loud?
>    3. What about K''vodo or az bekol?

These are related to question 1.

Another issue: must sepharadim stand during kaddish at an askhenazi
shul. YY answers that yes, they must, even though they may sit at a
sepharadi shul.

May ashkenazim sit during kaddish at a sepharadi shul? I'd love to know
the answer.


Ken Bloom. PhD candidate. Linguistic Cognition Laboratory.
Department of Computer Science. Illinois Institute of Technology.
-------------- next part --------------
A non-text attachment was scrubbed...
Name: signature.asc
Type: application/pgp-signature
Size: 189 bytes
Desc: not available
Url : http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071002/a220b482/attachment-0001.pgp 

Go to top.

Message: 8
From: "Esther and Aryeh Frimer" <frimera@zahav.net.il>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 08:51:29 +0200
[Avodah] Mitsvat Sukkah is almost unique - continued

From: "Richard Wolpoe" Posted 

Q: How is The Mitzvah of Sukkah so unique [almost] - in that it shares a
quality in common with only 1 other mitzvah nowadays.

A: Just like the Mikvah, the Sukkah encompasses our entire body. In the time
of the Temple , we could experience being encompassed by the sanctity of the
Bet Hamikdash, now we have only Mikvah and Sukkah.

    Moadim leSimhah

Dr. Aryeh A. Frimer
Ethel and David Resnick Professor
   of Active Oxygen Chemistry
Chemistry Dept., Bar-Ilan University
Ramat Gan 52900, ISRAEL
E-mail: FrimeA@mail.biu.ac.il
Tel: 972-3-5318610; Fax: 972-3-7384053
Tel Home: 972-8-9473819/9470834
Cellphone: 972-54-7540761

-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: http://lists.aishdas.org/private.cgi/avodah-aishdas.org/attachments/20071003/5379250b/attachment.htm 

Go to top.

Message: 9
From: "Chana Luntz" <chana@kolsassoon.org.uk>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:16:21 +0100
Re: [Avodah] heter mechira produce

RRW writes:

> I would posit the hypothesis that an essential d'orraiso that 
> has been reduced to Derabbana status is stronger than a 
> simple  "pure" Derabbanan.

While there are clearly some d'rabbanans that fall into the category of
stronger d'rabbanans, because it is understood that when the rabbis
enacted the d'rabbanan, they enacted it like a d'orisa prohibition (see
for example my discussion of the view that this is what occurred in
respect of trumos and ma'aaros at
http://www.aishdas.org/avodah/vol16/v16n133.shtml#07 - under the subject
heading "Tevel", and the thread there) I find it difficult (although not
impossible) to believe that this is what most people hold regarding
shmitta.  This is because one of the primary reasons to understand
shmitta today as being d'rabbanan is because of Abaye's statement to
that effect on Gitten 36b.  There, the gemora is discussing how Hillel
could ever have enacted the prozbul, and one reason advanced by Abaye as
to how come Hillel could have enacted the prozbul is because he held
like Rebbe (against the Rabbanan) that shmitta b'zman of Hillel is
d'rabbanan.  However, as this is being used as a justification for a
specific leniency (prozbul) which by implication Hillel would never have
enacted had shmitta not been d'rabbanan, it would seem logical that the
kind of d'rabbanan that shmitta was deemed to be was not one which had
all the chumros of a d'orisa, otherwise the question just reverts.  [Of
course, the gemora does also give annother answer as to how Hillel was
able to enact prozbul, by means of hefker beis din hefker, but it is not
clear that these are indeed alternatives, because either way, you need
the hefker beis din hefker response to counter the question as to how
the rabbis could deem loans nullified if the Torah itself did not]



Go to top.

Message: 10
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:23:07 GMT
Re: [Avodah] A Hassidic Thought about the Sukkah

R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> Q: How is The Mitzvah of Sukkah so unique [almost] - in that it
> shares a quality in common with only 1 other mitzvah nowadays.
> A: Just like the Mikvah, the Sukkah encompasses our entire body.
> In the time of the Temple, we could experience being encompassed
> by the sanctity of the Bet Hamikdash, now we have only Mikvah
> and Sukkah.

Two comments:

1) Besides Sukkah, I've heard this also said about Tzitzis and about Yishuv Eretz Yisrael. (This is the first first time I've heard it about mikve.)

2) I think it was the Kotzker who responded to this by saying "Yes, but you can walk *out* of a Sukkah. You can't walk out of Shabbos!"

Akiva Miller

Go to top.

Message: 11
From: "kennethgmiller@juno.com" <kennethgmiller@juno.com>
Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 12:45:41 GMT
Re: [Avodah] Shmini Atzeret - why Sukkah YES and Lulav NO?

R' Richard Wolpoe asked:
> Why do we sit in the Sukkah in the Golah on Sukkot but do
> not take the Lulav etc. on Shmini Atzeret? This question
> has bothered me since I was a kid

This question never bothered me. I do see many many people who are bothered by it, and I can't figure out why the following explanation isn't simple enough:

Shmini Atzeres in chu"l is safek Chol Hamoed. Sukkah is d'Oraisa on Chol HaMoed, so we go safek l'chumra on Shmini Atzeres. Keep in mind that on Shmini Ateres, we only go to the Sukkah for things which are chiyuvim on Chol Hamoed, i.e., seudas keva (which includes large mezonos snacks).

Activities which are technically optional on Chol Hamoed, we have no need to bother with on Shmini. We do not go to the sukkah on Shmini for small snacks or to learn or shmooze. No one (AFAIK) sleeps in the Sukkah on Shmini. Safek Brachos L'Kula too, so even for a seudas keva, no one says Leshev on Shmini.

Lulav, on the other hand, is already D'Rabanan on Chol Hamoed. Safek D'Rabanan L'Kula on Shmini. End of story.

Akiva Miller

Go to top.

Message: 12
From: Zev Sero <zev@sero.name>
Date: Wed, 03 Oct 2007 09:49:31 -0400
[Avodah] The Weather and the Jewish Problem

Richard Wolpoe wrote:

> OTOH, in the USA I would consider this a matter of Hubris that due to 
> the Jews in the USA alone the entire weather pattern is magically 
> shlepped along.

"Afilu sefinot habaot miGallia leAspamia einan mitbarchot ella
bishvil Yisrael."

Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas


Avodah mailing list

End of Avodah Digest, Vol 23, Issue 213

Send Avodah mailing list submissions to

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to

You can reach the person managing the list at

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Avodah digest..."

< Previous Next >