Avodah Mailing List

Volume 23: Number 179

Wed, 29 Aug 2007

• 1. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 2. Standing for birchos hashachar (Dov Kay)
• 3. Re: Why is Milchemes Reshus allowed? (kennethgmiller@juno.com)
• 4. Teshuvah - Positive or Negative (Madjsolomon@aol.com)
• 5. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Arie Folger)
• 6. hetter to have an IDF (Dov Bloom)
• 7. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Harry Weiss)
• 8. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Zev Sero)
• 9. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Micha Berger)
• 10. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 11. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Moshe Y. Gluck)
• 12. Re: Teshuva - postive or negative? (saul mashbaum)
• 13. Re: Mi Sheberach for a Non-Jew (Rich, Joel)
• 14. Re: [Areivim] Beyom Chasunaso (Michael Kopinsky)

R' Elliot Shevin:
On a tangent to the subject of?saying Mi Sheberach at a bris, are there 
any halachos regarding saying Mi Sheberach for a non-Jew?
?
Can anyone cite any?authorities at all who specifically permit or prohibit
the practice, with their reasons?



See Chinuch 426. He is referring to an Oved AZ, so that would be a factor,
and he gives a few Heteirim even for that, such as Darkei Shalom and if
there is a To'eles. BTW, the minhag for the longest time was to make a Mi
Shebeirach for the Keisar YRH, who definitely was a non-Jew.

KT and KVCT,
MYG

<<On a total tangent: The minhag seems to be to stand when the chazan says
birchos hashachar.  I could not find a reference to this in either the
Artscroll siddur or the MB.  Is there a source for this?  Is it similar to
Shochein Ad, when many people naturally stand up for some reason, even
though it is clearly not recognized as a minhag?>>

I seem to recall that Ishei Yisroel cites the M'kor Chaim as a source for 
standing during birchos hashachar.  There are many, many minhagim that never 
made it into MB.

I have never noticed people stand up especially for Shochen Ad, although I 
believe that we stand for Yishtabach so as to be in a position to go 
straight to kaddish without the slightest interruption.

Kol tuv
Dov Kay

_________________________________________________________________
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R' Richard Wolpoe wrote:
> Just re-interpret this to include the case that if you ignore
> or refuse to confront a hostile nation then one day you will
> need to fight them anyway. and this is still Reshus ...
> Simlarly Milhemet Reshus may be construed as a preemptive war
> against a hostile nation that sooner or later will attack.

If you want to consider a preemptive war as being a Milchemes Reshus, I don't have a problem with that. My problem is that there are other types of Milchemes Reshus too, in which we seem to be attacking a nation which was *not* hostile to us. *Those* are the cases that bother me.

Akiva Miller

Dear Friends,
 
In response to Daniel Eidenson's query about how we promote Teshuvah to our  
youth and Baalei Teshuvah, I have attached the text of a talk I delivered  to 
youth directors in preparation for the Yamim Noraim. I hope it is of interest  
to some. All feedback greatly appreciated.
 
Johnny Solomon
 
 
The high Holy Days are by their nature misunderstood. They are high ?  
unreachable to all but a few, and supposedly holy ? although no student or  teacher 
or philosopher has ever been able to define this word meaningfully to  me. 
This confusion regarding the nature of these days means that the youth we  
encounter in our synagogues, as well as pretty much everyone else in shul, come  
with baggage, and generally the wrong type of baggage. 
Our generation are  not the first to misunderstand the nature of Rosh 
Hashana. We find in Sefer  Nechemiah (8:10) that on Rosh Hashana, Ezra read the Torah 
to the people, who  responded by mourning and weeping. His response, with 
Nechemiah and the Leviim,  was "Go your way, eat fat foods, and drink sweet 
beverages, and send portions to  them for whom nothing is prepared; for this day is 
holy to our Lord; do not  grieve, for the joy of the Lord is your strength."
Some Mefarshim say that the reason they cried was because the curses from  
the Torah were being read, and this made the people realise how much they had  
sinned. However, according to the Malbim, the regular Rosh Hashana Torah 
reading  was read. Only when hearing this did the people even realise that it was 
Rosh  Hashana! Like many of the youth we encounter in shul, it did not hit the 
people  that Rosh Hashana was coming until that very day. The people 
immediately reacted  ? they started to cry. They wanted to fast. They realised that this 
was a once a  year opportunity that was soon going to pass. However, Ezra and 
Nechemiah  responded by stating ?Go your way, eat fat foods, and drink sweet 
beverages  etc.? What the Malbim implies is that when you have the ?
infrequent fliers? ?  those Jews who only realise the enormity of Rosh Hashana on Rosh 
Hashana (which  I think describes the majority of the kind of kids we 
encounter), don?t let them  mess about with the heavy stuff that takes serious 
preparation. Such a Jew does  not have the stamina to
revisit their wrongdoings. Instead, all that kind of  Jew has is their faith 
and their desire to do something positive. In my opinion,  we have a 
responsibility to actualise this desire. Such a Jew can achieve more  by doing acts of 
chessed such as sending ?portions to them for whom nothing is  prepared? than 
dwelling on their
past misdeeds. 
This idea reminds me of  one of the most famous Talmudic debates (Eruvin 13b) 
between Beit Hillel and  Beit Shammai?"For two and a half years were Beth 
Shammai and Beth Hillel in  dispute, the former asserting that it was better for 
man not to have been  created than to have been created, and the latter 
maintaining that it is better  for man to have been created than not to have been 
created. They finally took a  vote and decided that it were better for man not 
to have been created than to  have been created, but now that he has been 
created, let him investigate his  past deeds (y'fasfes) or, as others say, let him 
examine his future actions  (y'mashmesh).
What?s the difference between the two final opinions? Somebody  with time to 
reflect, who makes time to reflect, who prepares for days such as  Rosh 
Hashana should rather investigate their past misdeeds as that Rambam  demands of us. 
However, like the people listening to Ezra, and like our kids,  their limited 
time deliberating spiritual ideas should focus more on their  future actions. 
That is, not what they have done, but
what they can be.
What we have just done, whether or not you realise it, is define our goal  
and the goal of our kids during these busy and complex days.
So, how can we  make our activities productive in formulating and planning 
the future spiritual  activities of our students post Rosh Hashana and Yom 
Kippur?
There is an  important idea in teaching. Something you might all know but you 
might not have  considered far enough. This is that theory of multiple 
intelligences. That is,  we all learn differently; our brains are more effective 
with more individualized  teaching to our learning style. Rav Kook, reflecting on 
this idea, noted in his  Orot HaTorah (9:6) "There were those that went off 
the path of the Torah because  they rebelled against a method of learning which 
ran counter to their unique  individual nature". That is, unless we recognise 
the individual needs of the  youth we encounter, we can actually have a 
negative effect on their Jewish  education.
 
 



   
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REShevin wrote:
> (I've been trying in vain to get our gabbai to stop using the phrase
> "betoch shaar cholei Yisrael" on the basis of it's logical fallacy: you
> can't be counted within the *rest* of a group you're not a member of. Has
> anyone heard a more appropriate text?)

How about ya'had 'im 'holei Yisrael?

-- 
Arie Folger
http://www.ariefolger.googlepages.com

Saul Newman asked: is any one aware of a psak from charedi poskim, that befeirush gives a hetter to either have an IDF, or to serve in it?  for males, of course...

My first thought was Rambam Hilchot Melachim Perek 5 Halacha 1-2 where he defines Milchemet Mitzva as, among other things, "ezrat Yisrael mi-yad tzar she-ba aleihem"  "milchemet mitzva eino tzarich litol ba reshut beit din elah yotzei me-atzmo bechol eit". Then I realized that the Rambam held down a job and studied philosophy so he probably wouldn't be considered a legitimate chareidi posek.

There is a fascinating iggeret/booklet written in 1948, before/during the War of Independence by R Shlomo Yosef Zevin, later the main editor of the Encyclopedia Talmudit, entitled "li-sheilat giyus benei ha-yeshivot". The discussion there was with those who called upon the bachurei yeshiva not to register for the Hagana "draft".  The iggeret can now be found online at http://www.vbm-torah.org/vtc/0026394.doc .  There didn't seem to be an argument about stam people joining to fight, but about bachurei yeshiva. Remember, there are probably 100 times more bachurei yeshiva now in Yerushalayim than there were in 1948, so R. Zevin writes about a fear that the yeshivas would empty out. He claims that this was a mitzva of hatzalat nefashot, "ein osim devarim ha-lalu ela al yedai gedolai yisrael" "ha-zariz harei ze meshubach" "eino tzarich litol ba reshut beit din". 

R Shear Yashuv Cohen, son of the "Nazir" and present Chief Rabbi of Haifa, who was mentioned on Avodah yesterday, served  in 1948 in the Haganah, and was captured by the Jordanians when the Old City fell to the Arab Legion in 1948. He susequently spent time in Jordanian POW camps until there were prisoner exchanges. 

> From: Elliott Shevin <eshevin@hotmail.com>
> On a tangent to the subject of saying Mi Sheberach at a bris, are there
> any halachos regarding saying Mi Sheberach for a non-Jew?
>
> (I've been trying in vain to get our gabbai to stop using the phrase "betoch
> shaar cholei Yisrael" on the basis of it's logical fallacy: you can't be counted
> within the *rest* of a group you're not a member of. Has anyone heard
> a more appropriate text?)

I do a separate MiSheberach  Misheberach avoseinu Avra.....uShlomo who 
yeverach vYeraph as (english names) bavur Shakahal mispalelim bavuram, 
refuash hanefesh urefuas hagood, (shabbos hu milizuk - if approrpiate) 
hashta bagala uvizman kariv venomar amein,

This leaves out the shear cholei> yisroel issue

Harry J. Weiss
hjweiss@panix.com

Harry Weiss wrote:

> I do a separate MiSheberach  Misheberach avoseinu Avra.....uShlomo who 
> yeverach vYeraph as (english names) bavur Shakahal mispalelim bavuram, 
> refuash hanefesh urefuas hagood, (shabbos hu milizuk - if approrpiate) 
> hashta bagala uvizman kariv venomar amein,

I don't understand the whole "baavur shemispelelim baadam".  I've heard
it in various shuls, but it makes no sense to me.  "Baavur" is meant to
give Hashem, kiveyachol, a reason to do as we ask; we ask that our
request be fulfilled in the merit of tzedaka that we've pledged, or
some other mitzvah that we've done or will do.  But what are we saying
here? "Please do this in the merit of the fact that we asked You"?

-- 
Zev Sero               Something has gone seriously awry with this Court's
zev@sero.name          interpretation of the Constitution.
                       	                          - Clarence Thomas

On Wed, August 29, 2007 3:09 am, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
: BTW, the minhag for the longest time was to make a Mi
: Shebeirach for the Keisar YRH, who definitely was a non-Jew.

That's not a minhag, that's din. Avos 3:2, R Chanina segan hakohanim.
But davening for the Czar is no different than Chazal davening for the
stability of Rome and its governor.

If you want to refer to differences in pesaq, such as whether it
should be said when the gov't is hostile to us, or if it has meaning
in a democracy where no one individual runs the whole show, then it's
a matter of pesaq, not minhag. Of course, in RCShK's day, the gov't
was hostile as well...

But I thought the question about Mi sheBeirakh was not whether one
could craft an appropriate nusach, but whether one should. Perhaps
davening for non-Jews should be left to Refa'einu, and not the MsB
format.

Why does MsB invoke "avoseinu" and include phrases like "besokh
she'ar"? Is it indicative of something particularistic in the entire
MsB concept, or an "accidental" feature that could be modified as
appropriate?

The tefillah for the gov't doesn't use the MsB formula. So it would
seem that if there is a problem, it would be with the formula, not the
post-leining timing.

Tir'u baTov!
-mi

-- 
Micha Berger             Spirituality is like a bird: if you tighten
micha@aishdas.org        your grip on it, it chokes; slacken your grip,
http://www.aishdas.org   and it flies away.
Fax: (270) 514-1507                            - Rav Yisrael Salanter

R' ZS:
> I don't understand the whole "baavur shemispelelim baadam".  I've heard
> it in various shuls, but it makes no sense to me.  "Baavur" is meant to
> give Hashem, kiveyachol, a reason to do as we ask; we ask that our
> request be fulfilled in the merit of tzedaka that we've pledged, or
> some other mitzvah that we've done or will do.  But what are we saying
> here? "Please do this in the merit of the fact that we asked You"?

If Tefillah is a Mitzvah, either D'oiraisa or D'rabbanan, then the Kahal
fulfilled that Mitzvah specifically because of the Choleh, the Zechus which
should accrue to the Choleh's (spiritual) bank account.

KT,
MYG

> On Wed, August 29, 2007 3:09 am, Moshe Y. Gluck wrote:
> : BTW, the minhag for the longest time was to make a Mi
> : Shebeirach for the Keisar YRH, who definitely was a non-Jew.
R' MB: 
> That's not a minhag, that's din. Avos 3:2, R Chanina segan hakohanim.
> But davening for the Czar is no different than Chazal davening for the
> stability of Rome and its governor.

That Din was fulfilled through the mentioned Minhag. 

<SNIP>
> The tefillah for the gov't doesn't use the MsB formula. 

True (and this is not intended to address your point) but it is called that
for some reason - for example, Siddur HaGRA titiles it "Mi Shebeirach
L'ha'kaiser YRH"

> So it would seem that if there is a problem, it would be with the formula,
not the post-leining timing.

Indeed - the Minhag is specifically for after Krias HaTorah - see Tikkun
Tefillah B'shem the Kol Bo.

KT,
MYG 

RDE
>>
...one can do teshuva either by focusing on faults or by focusing on  avodas HaShem 
...the issue is whether the main concern is repentance through  repair of the bad or through improvement of the good? 
>>
The negative and positive aspects of the tshuva process are reflected in two radically different aspects of Rosh HaShana, each one with considerable support from the machzor and our halachic and aggadic sources. Rosh HaShana is Yom HaDin, and indeed we are bidden to tremble on RH as we are being judged, keenly aware as we are of our inadequacy. On the other hand, it is the day on which we joyously crown HaShem as King, rejoicing that we have been privileged to do so, this being our avodat Hashem. The shofar fills us both with fear, as a siren would, and with joy, as ceremonial trumpets which herald a king would. RH is thus the classic "gilu b'raada". We can well inquire which aspect to emphasize, but both are definitely part of the RH experience. I would venure to say that combining both aspects of RH is both a most demanding, and a most  rewarding, challenge.
Saul Mashbaum
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Harry Weiss wrote:

> I do a separate MiSheberach  Misheberach avoseinu Avra.....uShlomo who

> yeverach vYeraph as (english names) bavur Shakahal mispalelim bavuram,

> refuash hanefesh urefuas hagood, (shabbos hu milizuk - if approrpiate)

> hashta bagala uvizman kariv venomar amein,

I don't understand the whole "baavur shemispelelim baadam"
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

R'YBS felt this was the forbidden iyun tfila.
KVCT
Joel Rich
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Redirected from Areivim...
On 8/27/07, martin nissenbaum <marfern1@yahoo.com> wrote:

>
> Beyom Chasunaso, by Rabbi Cinamon, is a wonderful
> sefer on the halachos of weddings. But it fails to
> mention anything about an issue that I've heard of
> about regarding wedding rings which are engraved with
> any design. There are some that say the ring must be
> absolutely smooth - apparently because engraving makes
> it difficult to determine its value. Is anyone aware
> of a source for this concern?


The chassan paid several hundred (or thousand) dollars for the ring.  Can
there possibly be any concern that it's not shaveh pruta (~5 cents)?  Or is
the concern that she thought was being married for $3000, and really it was
$2000, so it's a mekach ta'us?

KT,
Michael
6/16/67
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